Author Topic: War Criminal Demonstration  (Read 32434 times)

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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2004, 18:56:05 »
>It is difficult to ever fully comprehend the insurmountable violence and oppression inflicted upon the Iraqi poulace under Saddam Hussein. In making that statement, however, are you trying to justify U.S. actions through the vicious actions of another state?

Short lesson in the roles of diplomacy and war as foreign policy levers in matters of concern for humanitarian crises.

(Diplomatic phase begins.)
One or more concerned nations to Dictator: "Treat your people better."
Dictator: "Make me."
(Sanctions, embargoes, resolutions, name-calling, entreaties, etc.)
Dictator: "Is that all you got?"
(Diplomatic phase ends. Two choices: make Dictator comply, or leave people to their fate.  Pick one.)


Any questions?
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Offline MissMolsonIndy

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2004, 20:14:25 »
Missmolsonindy.......bad netiquette to change the wording after someone responds to the question, shame,shame. :-[

I'm sorry, Bruce, I didn't do it on purpose.

I edited my post several times over, and only noticed after I had saved it that a response followed.

Storm

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2004, 20:25:06 »
I like your logic.   While we're at it, let's go talk to the people of Europe and ask them what their living conditions were like while that evil alliance of allys was fighting the good and benevolent Nazi's.   Clearly we should have stayed out of WW2, look how much damage we caused by fighting!

Damn, you beat me to it.   ;D


As for the concern of using a board such as this to mention demonstrations, I don't see that as being out of line, provided it's done in a civil manner. Advising of a legal protest and encouraging those who believe in it's statement to participate is no different than encouraging someone to write to their MP, or to the local paper. All those actions are legal methods of expressing your opinion last time I checked. Is this the best place to advertise a protest about Iraq? Definitely not, but it's not out of line either.

Offline muskrat89

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2004, 20:31:02 »
Quote
Advising of a legal protest and encouraging those who believe in it's statement to participate is no different than encouraging someone to write to their MP, or to the local paper. All those actions are legal methods of expressing your opinion last time I checked. Is this the best place to advertise a protest about Iraq? Definitely not, but it's not out of line either.

I have issue with people who come here to debate politics, and little else. This is Army.ca - a site for military people, ex-military people, and those interested in joining or simply supporting the military. The Politics forums are here, on this military-oriented site, as a service to people who already "belong" here (for lack of a better term). For people with little to offer to military discussions, that like to debate politics, why don't you go to political sites???
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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2004, 20:55:40 »
"Belong", eh?
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.

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Offline muskrat89

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2004, 20:58:50 »
As I said - not the best term, but the best one I could think of   ;)
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Offline Slim

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2004, 21:04:45 »
I don't think that using this forum to recruit for an anti-Bush protest is correct...Regardless of personal feelings on the matter. As soldiers (and ex soldiers) we are, to a degree, bound to be loyal to the Country and her govt. (even if they don't deserve it most of the time).

Preaching civil disobedience is not loyalty and the majority of protesters don't really understand the issue and don't really know the truth of the matter to begin with anyway.

Shawn

If you persist on recruiting here in this thread (or the forum in general) I will request that the mods lock this and any subsequent threads you make. And I'm sure I won't be alone in doing that.

Slim
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Storm

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2004, 21:26:13 »
Sorry Muskrat, I apologize for my error. I had been under the impression that the political forum existed for open discussion of politics between people of various political beliefs. Thank you for clarifying that they actually exist for us to pat ourselves on the back for the fact that our opinions are so infallable, free from the bothersome arguments of those who believe otherwise. ::)

Sarcasm aside, I also think the whole premise of the anti-Bush protest is silly, and that soliciting support here is a waste of effort. However, based on the quality of discussion often found on these forums I would expect some well aimed arguments in opposition to this rather than "you're being dumb, you don't belong here, now go away"

I have issue with people who come here to debate politics, and little else. This is Army.ca - a site for military people, ex-military people, and those interested in joining or simply supporting the military. The Politics forums are here, on this military-oriented site, as a service to people who already "belong" here (for lack of a better term). For people with little to offer to military discussions, that like to debate politics, why don't you go to political sites???

The person who initiated this thread, according to their profile (which is reasonably informative, indicating that this is not a one-topic troll), is in army cadets. I doubt he would be in cadets if he didn't have at least some interest in the military, and I don't see how you can say he doesn't "belong" here given the involvement of the CF with the cadet program. I must say I'm disappointed in your dismissive attitude.

Offline camochick

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2004, 21:27:49 »
Just Advertising and supporting

Demonstration against George Bush

U.S. President George W. Bush will be in Canada, November 30, 2004
Demonstrations against Bush will be held across the country, on the grounds that he is a war criminal and is responsible for 100,000 civilian deaths in Iraq and that he and his administration are in continuing violation of Geneva Convention accords by holding prisoners in torture like conditions at Guantanamo bay.

In Salmon Arm There will be a demonstration on Tuesday Nov. 30 from 12:15 to 12:45 at Alexander St. and TCH

If you belive that Bush is a war criminal
Find out if its happening in your town and show up, or organize one to protest it



I really dont see where this guy is preaching. I mean he says that "if you believe bush is a war criminal". NO where in this post does this person go off about how everyone should go to this protest. This person is just informing people of what is going on. These protest have the potentila to be a big issue on the 30th. Are we not allowed to talk about anything slightly controversial on here. It seems like there is alot of censorship and people getting threatened with being banned and such. Are these forums not to voice ones opinion on things. I agree that an army forum is not the best place for this, but it seems like there is alot of silencing of certain people around here, and this place is turning into some sort of elitist club.
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Offline muskrat89

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2004, 21:29:34 »
There are members who come here and rarely step outside of the political forum. That is what I have issue with. This isn't politics.ca That was my point.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2004, 21:45:02 by muskrat89 »
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Offline muskrat89

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2004, 21:32:22 »
Quote
It seems like there is alot of censorship and people getting threatened with being banned and such. Are these forums not to voice ones opinion on things. I agree that an army forum is not the best place for this, but it seems like there is alot of silencing of certain people around here, and this place is turning into some sort of elitist club.


Examples, please?


 ???
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Offline camochick

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2004, 21:35:49 »
Do I really have to go through all the forums and find places where people say things like, i will ifnorm someone of this, or that. All I am saying is that I dont think this guy was wrong in posting this becayse he is not promoting this, he just posted something about a protest. He never said anyone should attend. If you want me to go through all th post i will  :-*
I am bushy bushkisser!!!
It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees!!

Storm

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2004, 22:19:48 »
It seems like there is alot of censorship and people getting threatened with being banned and such. Are these forums not to voice ones opinion on things. I agree that an army forum is not the best place for this, but it seems like there is alot of silencing of certain people around here, and this place is turning into some sort of elitist club.

I don't follow. If cersorship was running rampant, I'd be gone by now for disagreeing with one of the all-powerful mods. People who troll and bring down the level of debate here are dealt with swiftly and appropriately from what I've seen. There is a fair warning system that is used before anyone is banned. While there may be an initial warning here or there that may seem questionable to you, I highly doubt anyone who doesn't truly deserve it will get the boot.

Remember that, in the end, these forums are owned privately by an individual, who gets to set the rules and hand pick mods to help him run things. It just happens that in this dictatorship the dictator is good.

Offline muskrat89

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2004, 22:21:36 »
Thank you storm   ;D
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Offline camochick

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2004, 22:49:39 »
Ok . You make a good point. :D
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Online Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #40 on: November 27, 2004, 00:45:11 »
MMI,
Honest mistake, then no problem....I retrieve my "shame-shames".

Now, just to make everyone aware, I slightly disagree with Muskrat on this one, as long as one is not simply " trolling" then lets hear it.
But to put some minds at ease Mr. Bobbitt did not pick "Mods" according to their views and to be truthful we do butt heads regularly however, just like professional soldiers must learn to do, we present a united front.
[and that grasshopper, is one of the most important things you WILL learn in your future]
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Offline CheersShag

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2004, 02:20:03 »
I will let this thread open until the staff disagrees completely, at which point I will cut it, because no thread is worth the unity of the staff.

As I see it this is a discussion based on the civil rights which we live and die for, and if you think about, as military members have very little else to do in our careers.

So I say, have at it folks, as long as it's somehow related to this particular protest.
Otherwise, open your own threads. It's your right!

Offline Goober

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #42 on: November 27, 2004, 09:54:37 »
On the topic of the protesters (all over the country) protesting against Bush, I think thats fine, and I respect anyone who stands up for what they believe in, but I think Che made an excellent point about some of these protesters...

...
They're doing the same thing in Halifax though it seems they've decided Bush is guilty already, so I don't see the point behind the trial.
Plans are to cuff "Him" and take "him to the US consulate at Purdy's Wharf.
...

Any respect I had for such a protester goes right out the window.

Behind any "crime" there is a motive. Putting it simply, isn't it the motive that determines whether or not the act is a crime? As a cheap example, you shoot somebody and kill them. Are you a criminal? Depends on the motive, you could have done it in self defence, or you could have been been aiming for the guy with the knife behind him, or you could have planed it for weeks.

The motive behind Bush invading Iraq was to end Saddam's tyranny. Is that a crime?

Some reports say as many as 100,000 civilians have been killed since the US invaded Iraq. War is not nice. A few years of war and 100,000 civilian deaths is worth the price of a country's freedom wouldn't you think? After all, if Saddam was not removed then his civilian death count of 300,000 (reported) would still be rising, and wouldn't stop rising. Is this motive enough?

With 300,000 civilians killed by a tyrant dictator, isn't turning a blind eye, or not doing anything about it a crime?

Offline muskrat89

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2004, 10:07:21 »
Quote
I slightly disagree with Muskrat on this one

Ahh Bruce - there is a first time for everything   ;)

I was simply expressing a personal pet peeve - not a "Moderator one". There are a few people here who, in my perception, offer little to military discussions, but wax poetic in the political ones. This is a military board, so it strikes me strange - that's all. Like someone who joins the board, and 95% of their posts are about...ummmm....baseball card collecting. Now if a thread is about the hobbies of people who joined the board - and someone wants to talk about baseball cards, great. If that's all they want to talk about, though - why aren't they hanging around in the "baseball card collecting" sites?   ???

Anyway, like I said - a personal peeve - as long as the conversations stay in the guidelines, and Bruce agrees with me most of the time, the thread is in no danger from me, as a Mod. Carry on, folks - I'll quit butting in now.
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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #44 on: November 27, 2004, 11:59:27 »
I have to agree with you, my friend, your always right, darn it! ;D
IF YOU REALLY ENJOY THIS SITE AND WISH TO CONTINUE,THEN PLEASE WIGGLE UP TO THE BAR AND BUY A SUBSCRIPTION OR SOME SWAG FROM THE MILNET.CA STORE OR IF YOU WISH TO ADVERTISE PLEASE SEND MIKE SOME DETAILS.

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Offline Thucydides

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #45 on: November 29, 2004, 14:35:14 »
Quote
I was simply expressing a personal pet peeve - not a "Moderator one". There are a few people here who, in my perception, offer little to military discussions, but wax poetic in the political ones. This is a military board, so it strikes me strange - that's all.

"War is the continuation of Politics by other means". If military action is not directed towards achieving some political objective, then it is really brigandage on a large scale, and indeed most of the history of war from the Iliad on is really the story of rape, pillage and plunder on a large or even epic scale (Alexander the Great, Napoleon, Adolf Hitler and Stalin come to mind). Indeed, military historian Martin Van Crevald makes the point that until the birth of the modern Nation-State in the mid 1600s, the very concept of war as we understand it did not exist (although I would be inclined to debate that proposition).

My main problem with the "leftist" position is they still seem to focus only on the undeniable collateral effects of war, without looking at the political objectives the war is meant to achieve. This allows people to make silly statements like "Bush is a war criminal" with a straight face, since for the most part, they really have no idea what they are talking about. If 100,000 people have been killed in Iraq due to the actions of the coalition (BTW, this was a speculation, not an informed casualty count, see the "100,000 and counting" thread), then a very high price has been paid, but the political ends; removing an aggressive and destabilizing regime, breaking support links to various terrorist organizations, preventing the resumption of WMD research and development, and saving the citizens of the country from further oppression; would seem to make taking action worthwhile. Since the real casualty count is much lower, then the price is acceptable for what has been achieved, and since the conventional laws of war have been followed quite scrupulously by the coallition, then there is no case for stating the President is a "war criminal".

The other problem with most "leftists" is even when confronted by factual evidence, they will simply dismiss you with some insult and carry on as if you had never spoken. The only thing for "ignorent redneck cracker bible-thumping baby-killers" to do is continue to press on, find the facts and publish them wherever you can. It can't hurt, and you might help someone somewhere.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #46 on: November 29, 2004, 14:59:59 »
Well, if the initial post is appropriate to the Forums (and I'm not convinced that it is), maybe some advertizing for the alternative is appropriate, too:

www.protestwarrior.com
"Except for ending Slavery, Fascism, Nazism & Communism, War has NEVER solved anything"

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Offline 48Highlander

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #47 on: November 29, 2004, 15:18:31 »
Well, if the initial post is appropriate to the Forums (and I'm not convinced that it is), maybe some advertizing for the alternative is appropriate, too:
www.protestwarrior.com

I love that site  ;D  Downloaded all of their videos and then showed 'em to some of my more moderate leftie friends.  You should have seen the looks on their faces.

Offline Get Nautical

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #48 on: November 29, 2004, 18:20:47 »
All im doing is telling that there is a protest, if you belive in it, speak out on tuesday.

- Shawn


Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #49 on: November 30, 2004, 00:25:29 »
The template of a protest is predictable.

Some of the attendees will meander in approximately serpentine patterns which would make a snake puke while waving their arms and call it "dance".

Others will resurrect a memory of beating spoons on pots as a 2-1/2 year-old and fancy the resulting arhythmic percussion and cacophony to be "music".

Some will recite pointless rants which have made to awkwardly rhyme as "poetry".

If the "poetry" is approximately coincident with the "music" it will be styled "song".

A few of the onlookers with memories of their own self-embarrassment will feign enthusiasm for these displays.  The rest will applaud politely, or try not to look involved.

Spokespeople will denounce the target of the protest, and the crowd will re-use slogans thirty or more years old, imagining themselves to be clever.

The next day all the participants will email their friends to regale them with triumphant tales of the celebration.
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.

"It is a damned heavy blow; but whining don't help."

Despair is a sin.