Author Topic: Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society  (Read 184987 times)

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Offline Infanteer

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If the service is to be given by a Jewish or Muslim Padre, then so be it.  Though the message may be different, the intent is the same.

Personally, I think the guy is a wanker for the reason that he put his own selfish reasons over simply removing his hat.  I don't hold any religious outlook what-so-ever, but it doesn't give me a license to be rude and discourteous.  I stand at dinners when people want to say grace, remove my boots in a mosque (did it once), and swapped my tuna sandwhich with a roast beef one that the soldier next to me (a Hindu) got in his box-lunch.

That being said, religious people can be equally polite towards be and refrain from getting me out of bed to give me the latest edition of "The Watchtower"....
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline MCG

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I don't hold any religious outlook what-so-ever, but it doesn't give me a license to be rude and discourteous.
That about sums it up in the fewest possible words.

CivU

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"I don't hold any religious outlook what-so-ever, but it doesn't give me a license to be rude and discourteous. "

I agree completely with this sentiment, as I hold no religious beliefs or affiliation.  What may be the issue is that, according to the article, the Officer in question informed his superiors of the parade (which I believe was going to be his first in a decade and therefore the issue would not have came up recently) that this would be problematic for him, as it contradicted his religious beliefs, or in this case, a lack thereof...

Perhaps if the issue had been addressed prior to the Officer having to make a personal stand by not removing his headdress, the instance would not have evoked such debate.  Though I think it lacks some degree of courtesey and example setting, as he was an experienced officer, taking a stand against practices you deem discriminatory and unacceptable is encouraged through CF SHARP training...where does this fit in?  You have to wonder, if he didn't take a stand, would this issue have merely fallen into the bureaucratic abysses...In doing so, this act has certainly paved the way for changes in regards to the amalgamation of church and military that continues to exist in an ever-changing Canadian Forces...

How would a Christian person feel if we did away with Roman Catholic and Anglican services as they discriminate against Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc. or if, as was already suggested, different forms of prayer, or reading from different scriptures, were instead implemented...you have to question if eliminating religious affiliations is not the easiest and least discriminatory step...


Pugnacious

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Pte Joe, if you've never been in a life threatening position, you have no darn way of knowing whether or not you'll turn to religion just as a religious person has no way of knowing if his faith will remain unbroken under fire.   So give it a rest.

I would hope that if I was in a Foxhole under fire with Pte (R) Joe that I wouldn't look over to hear him rambling on about imaginary demons, devils, and Angels. What he said indicates to me is that he doesn't deliberatly hallucinate medieval peasant fantasys while under stress.  Which IMHO is a good thing.   As how I see it if there as a God we wouldn't be in a foxhole in the first place. ;D

Why not have a CAF hanger left open for Santa's sled, and equip light infrantry with Unicorn harness, and Bridle also. LOL! ;D

Choose your own myth.
Cheers!
P.

Offline CheersShag

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By the same token, I'd rather be stuck in a foxhole with someone who has the courage to put faith into something that they can't see or touch. ::)
Your post is littered with ;D faces, perhaps in an attempt to convey a tongue in cheek tone and attacking PC Nazis, but your message goes beyond ignoring annoying PCness and into the realm of being outright offensive, ignorant of the world around you and sounding like a complete and utter twat in the process.
Don't believe in god etc. that's absolutely fine, equate my beliefs with Santa, hallucinations and midevial peasant fantasies and you're just being a jerk.

As for the gent not taking his hat off, I would agree with the idea of "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" as well as the fact that the order to remove headress is an ORDER.

Have a great day.

Pugnacious

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I'll be sure to consult my tarot cards and rune stones on the next Nav course, and replace the field radio for an Ouiji board.
St. Red pants the garden gnome will protect me.
LOL!  ;D

But I do have to agree with you on the hat thing. 
I mean really, how much trouble is it to take off ones freekin' hat?
Methinks he has too much time to be worried about these things.

Cheers!
P.

Offline Infanteer

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Choose your own myth.

You don't seem to live up to the outlook I alluded to earlier:

I don't hold any religious outlook what-so-ever, but it doesn't give me a license to be rude and discourteous.

It is fine to debate the philosophical notions of religion with people who are willing to do so in a civil manner (although this forum is probably not the most appropriate place for it) but it is not kosher to be a douche-bag.

Watch yourself.
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Pugnacious

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"You don't seem to live up to the outlook I alluded to earlier:
I don't hold any religious outlook what-so-ever, but it doesn't give me a license to be rude and discourteous."

Well calling someone a douche-bag certanly rings of courteous eh?
 :blotto: lol!

Cheers!
P.

Offline MCG

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Pugnacious,
STOP.

Offline Zip

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The point is, why even have PRAYER on the parade? I think that the remove headdress command really has nothing to do with it. We have separated the church and the state, why not in the military?


Do we really? Read the Constitution act of 1982 (Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms)
Quote
Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law

doesn't sound like much separation to me.

As an atheist I have absolutely no problem with prayers on parade. I remove my headdress as a sign of respect. I do not however bow my head in prayer.

This guy is being an obstinate a$$hat for no reason whatsoever.

Having said that though I would gladly be charged if today someone were to order me to go to a church service (as happened to me when I was a young trooper).

I believe personally that this does not set a dangerous precedent, we would have to have a military full of obtuse idiots like this guy for that to happen.

The only reason that this is able to cause such a stir in the first place is that QR&O's are out of step with the Charter. Although all Canadian Laws have to be applied against the charter we haven't adjusted QR&O's in that manner.

AAMOF I recently wrote my MP and mentioned to him that as a serving member of the reg force I was not permitted to become a card carrying member of a political party according to QR&O's this goes against the Charters freedom of association and political rights.

About a month later I received a letter in the mail from my MP with an attached letter from the MND stating that I was indeed allowed to exercise my political rights. That was almost 3 months ago. I've been waiting to hear about a revision to the QR&O's... good thing I'm not holding my breath.
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Offline MCG

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It only takes a few "obtuse idiots" to exploit a precedent like this.

Offline Thucydides

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This is a difficult subject to approach w/o being offensive to someone, and I hope the next "revision" of the QR & O doesn't simply take the lazy PC way out and ban all religious observence.

If people have special wants or needs, they should be able to approach the chain of command (in good time) and request an Iman, Rabbi, Druid or whatever. In this guy's case, he should have asked to be excused. As long as the Chain of command takes these requests seriously, then I don't see there is a problem. One year, I instructed a course where we did have soldiers claiming Jewish, Islamicand even Wiccan faith. The practical translation was we had separate hayboxes for their meals, and the Witch had to eat Mac and Cheese 3X daily in the field. At the course party, one of my candidates told me that he was Jewish as well. I was horrified, since he had been eating pork cutlets with the rest of us all summer. "Why didn't you tell me?" I demanded.
"I know how hard you must have had to work, so I didn't want to be a burden", he said, "Besides, God understands".

What a good man.

As for political rights, our right to vote in Municiple, Provincial and Federal elections is the expression of that right.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline MCG

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I hope the next "revision" of the QR & O doesn't simply take the lazy PC way out and ban all religious observence.

If people have special wants or needs, they should be able to approach the chain of command (in good time) and request an Iman, Rabbi, Druid or whatever. 
This may be a difficult approach when we consider how religious ceremony is included in much of our military ceremony.  Should guys be permitted to opt out of Remembrance Day parade because the Padre is not of their faith (or should we ensure every faith is represented and only the atheists & agnostics can opt out)?  What about mess dinners?  I don't have the answer, but it cannot be one that allows people to opt out of significant functions such as these.

Offline Blackhorse7

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I think the point is being missed here.  The fact is that the man was ordered to remove his headdress, and refused.  I am all for the right to have you're own personal beliefs, but to insult others (not to mention the basic rank structure of ANY military) by refusing to take off you're hat at a parade with religious undertones is above and beyond.

Someone else mentioned earlier "Fine.  Have you're beliefs.  But taking off you're hat isn't going to change those beliefs.  So take off you're hat."

For the love of Pete, IT'S AN ORDER!!!  He wasn't ordered to kill innocent non-combatants, burn hooches down, or call arty on his own men.  He was ordered to take off is hat.  Seems to me this whole mess would have been avoided if he simply followed orders.  I said it before... this is the Military you have joined.  It has it's own society, beliefs, and way of doing things.  If you don't like it, I'm sure there is a door with an exit sign within walking distance.
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Offline Michael Dorosh

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Joe
PS> Mr. Dorosh, go ahead and give me a damn verbal if you like, it'll only serve to show that you have no understanding of another person's viewpoint or no tolerance for anyone with a different opinion. Now I'll give it a rest as you mentioned and is now fair...   :-X

AT NO TIME DID I EVER THREATEN PTE JOE WITH A VERBAL - WE HAVE NOT PMed.     Have no idea what he is talking about.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2004, 13:47:57 by Infanteer »
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Offline Dogboy

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Quote from: Reccesoldier
As an atheist I have absolutely no problem with prayers on parade. I remove my headdress as a sign of respect. I do not however bow my head in prayer.

this is a good way to go about it

he was told to remove his hat
but he dose not have to pray
its not like he was ordered to get on his knees in front of a minister or something.

also all the Remembrance day services iv bin to don't have prayers, they have a moment of silence.
Iv got a learning disability. Iv had to deal with it for years you can deal with it for a min.

Offline CheersShag

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Quote
since he had been eating pork cutlets with the rest of us all summer. "Why didn't you tell me?" I demanded.

Very familiar with, god bless for the proper approach to.

Offline Shec

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The real problem is not with the officer in question, he is just playing barrack-room lawyer.     The real problem lies with the system itself - the court system, whether military or civil, which by following a PC rights-based agenda is undermining rather than reinforcing societal structures.     

You can't run a society, whether its an organization or a country without some form of discipline.     Somewhere along the line, as we on this board all know too well, the individual has to play ball.     And justifiably so for it is the individual who has joined the voluntarily joined the organization/country,   not the organization/country which has joined the individual.     Therefore one either respects the dominant ethos or leaves.   And its not an issue of minority rights because they are generally respected as a prinicple of wise leadership, fair play, and comradeship.   As a member of a religious minority I can and will attest to that.     

Yet court rulings like the one in this case are undermining these basic principles.      I can't believe the judges' decision, they have pissed all over the codes of service discipline .   They are paving the way for some little Herbie to go whining to his lawyer because he is on orders for deployment to some hot spot and is afraid he might get a boo-boo.   So it is the court system that is the culprit here.     

« Last Edit: December 12, 2004, 06:46:07 by Shec »
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Peace_Keeper

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I think that peoples relgious beliefs should be respected.......but then that leads to a conflict with equal strength. To respect the atheriest (or other religion) would be to let him not remove his head bress or aknowlagde the prayer, but to respect the Christians you would have to....Its unending


Really, if it means nothing to you, then why not do it?

Offline Blackhorse7

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EXACTLY.  You take your boots off when you walk into someone's house, don't you?  You say hello back when someone says it to you, don't you? 

It's a gesture of respect, simple as that.  And Peace_Keeper summed it up just right.  As an atheist, does the religious tone of a service matter to you?  No, but you still take off your hat as a sign of respect to the others around you.  At least you should, if you have any manners or common sense.
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Offline Michael Dorosh

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The real problem is not with the officer in question, he is just playing barrack-room lawyer.   The real problem lies with the system itself - the court system, whether military or civil, which by following a PC rights-based agenda is undermining rather than reinforcing societal structures.   

You can't run a society, whether its an organization or a country without some form of discipline.   Somewhere along the line, as we on this board all know too well, the individual has to play ball.   And justifiably so for it is the individual who has joined the voluntarily joined the organization/country,  not the organization/country which has joined the individual.   Therefore one either respects the dominant ethos or leaves.  And its not an issue of minority rights because they are generally respected as a prinicple of wise leadership, fair play, and comradeship.   As a member of a religious minority I can and will attest to that.   

Yet court rulings like the one in this case are undermining these basic principles.    I can't believe the judges' decision, they have pissed all over the codes of service discipline .  They are paving the way for some little Herbie to go whining to his lawyer because he is on orders for deployment to some hot spot and is afraid he might get a boo-boo.  So it is the court system that is the culprit here.   



YES YES YES

By all rights, the order to take his hat off should have been obeyed.  Some johnny behind a bench has decided it is ok to break the law.  The problem is with the courts.

We see it with everything, from this to the "right" to sex change operations, same sex marriages (at least make them call it a union for heaven's sake), and as I pointed out, next thing you know, killing our nation's enemies will be illegal because it goes against the Charter.

As for the reply to my "beseeching the blessing of God Almighty'" and what happens when we recognize other religions on parade - I suspect most religions have one supreme deity in common, no matter what His name.  I am cool with that.  We were founded by the UK, and their belief systems.  I wear a kilt on parade (and I'm Ukrainian) so I have bought into the UK aspects in many ways.  If we had a Buddhist or Muslim  regimental padre, I'd still bow my head.  The padre can refer to God as Allah if he wants, would still be the same prayer and wouldn't bother me a bit.
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Offline mo-litia

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  I wear a kilt on parade (and I'm Ukrainian) so I have bought into the UK aspects in many ways.   If we had a Buddhist or Muslim   regimental padre, I'd still bow my head.   The padre can refer to God as Allah if he wants, would still be the same prayer and wouldn't bother me a bit.

Well said . . . Allah, Budda, Jesus, Krishna, Yahweh, Zeus, etc, etc,  - they're all just different cultures viewpoints on dealing with a commen unknown factor about human existance.
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NavyGunner

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I was on parade when this happened and was working for the Base Disciplinarian. This took months to go to court because of the intricacies of the case. There were a LOT of pissed off people, trust me. Religion is one thing but obeying orders is another. I believe in the freedom of religion but he was wearing the same uniform as I do. He was ordered to remove his hat. He was NOT ordered to pray. I feel saddened by events like this, it really sucks!

Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Wow, a 51 year old Captain (Naval Lt).   What a shining career he must have had.   Guess he needed to get his name in the papers somehow.

Sorry, just noticed this. Plenty of reasons why he is 51 and only a LT(N) but the main one I can think of he was a PO or a Chief that decided to take his commission.
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Offline Brad Sallows

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"Obedience to lawful orders is essential to maintaining necessary discipline in the military. Here, however, there was no clearly military purpose," the court ruled.

Doesn't that conclusion worry anyone?  Is that all it takes to disobey a command: that it have no "clearly military purpose"?  I suppose I should try to find and read the entire judgement in case that quotation is far out of the context lane.

Removal of headdress is a ceremonial aspect of "drill & ceremonial".  The removal of headdress was incidental; why was the case not brought forward on the grounds of being forced to participate in a prayer ceremonial?  Apparently it is no imposition upon his belief system to be present on parade during an officially sanctioned prayer, but the removal of headdress is a grave insult.  My contempt is unbounded.
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