Author Topic: Dog Tags  (Read 264278 times)

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Offline MJP

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Re: CFAO 26-4: ID disc religion
« Reply #500 on: December 09, 2011, 23:41:30 »
Here is the doc, but I cannot post peoples contact info because of course we are not allowed to post military email addresses, etc...
No problem it was the list that pertinent.  Thanks for posting.
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Offline muskrat89

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Re: CFAO 26-4: ID disc religion
« Reply #501 on: December 10, 2011, 08:56:22 »
Quote
Also, the religion on the id discs is there to make it easier to find the appropriate person to administer last rights (or other religious equivalent) to a dying soldier

I think that's a good idea in theory but are the Padres (or equivalents) trained or at least familiarized with all of those religions listed? (Not trolling or debating - am genuinely curious). If the lone Wiccan in the CF goes down (sorry Raven) or a Rastafarian - will someone at the appropriate level/position know what to do ?

This is all very interesting to me.
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: CFAO 26-4: ID disc religion
« Reply #502 on: December 10, 2011, 09:09:32 »
Many, many years, in fact several decades ago, one of our padres showed me his "field manual" which had an annex with "hints" (directions?) for ministering to Jews and a few other Christian denominations. We were a much more homogenous (generally white, mostly Christian) army back then but I would think (only hope?) that chaplains still have similar "tools."

The topic came up because I had been leading a study group of subalterns preparing for Lt to Capt examinations and I had been teaching them how to figure out which services were part of the Adjutant General's domain - those which deal with the soldier as an individual, and those in the Quartermaster General's bailiwick - those which deal with soldiers as groups. The example I used was that chaplains, ministering to dying soldiers are, properly, an A Staff responsibility, but burials and graves registration, done by or under the supervision of Engineer units, is a Q Staff matter. This led to a discussion of "last rites" and a talk with the padre at lunch.
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jollyjacktar

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Re: CFAO 26-4: ID disc religion
« Reply #503 on: December 10, 2011, 10:55:13 »
I think that's a good idea in theory but are the Padres (or equivalents) trained or at least familiarized with all of those religions listed? (Not trolling or debating - am genuinely curious). If the lone Wiccan in the CF goes down (sorry Raven) or a Rastafarian - will someone at the appropriate level/position know what to do ?

This is all very interesting to me.

Raven is not alone.  I ran into another Wiccan in the sandbox, so there are at least two in the CF.  It did occur to me that were I to fall, I would be subjected to a ramp ceremony.  As an atheist, the religious portion would not be welcome but of course I would have no say in the matter.   No escaping it I suppose, protocol goes on even for someone like myself.

Offline muskrat89

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Re: CFAO 26-4: ID disc religion
« Reply #504 on: December 10, 2011, 10:58:43 »
Jacktar - I know he is not alone, I was light-heartedly referring to an earlier statement he made:
Quote
So if any of you require this to support approval for any faith on the new list including WIC to be printed on your Identity Discs look for me on military email. My last name is Brigley. I am the only one in the forces.

Hypothesizing of course, that if the single, currently-identified Wiccan was to fall, who would know what to do with him?
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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: CFAO 26-4: ID disc religion
« Reply #505 on: December 10, 2011, 11:20:27 »
Hypothesizing of course, that if the single, currently-identified Wiccan was to fall, who would know what to do with him?

Wikipedia would!

jollyjacktar

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Re: CFAO 26-4: ID disc religion
« Reply #506 on: December 10, 2011, 11:22:57 »
I had a bit of a chat about that faith with the Padre at FMF one day.  She indicated that they had some idea of how to deal with it IIRC.  I believe they are going from the US Military who IIRC do have some instructions in that regard.

Offline GnyHwy

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Re: CFAO 26-4: ID disc religion
« Reply #507 on: December 10, 2011, 12:13:24 »
As an atheist, the religious portion would not be welcome but of course I would have no say in the matter.   No escaping it I suppose, protocol goes on even for someone like myself.

More curiosity than anything, but if you don't believe, then you wouldn't think that any ceremony would have positive or negative effects;  it would just be pointless in your mind. Therefore, why does it matter what type of ceremony is done? 

I'm not trying to stir the pot or argue, just curious.  I myself may fall into the Atheist category, although by definition I am probably Agnostic (can't prove or disprove anything, therefore I am on the fence).  Quite frankly, I haven't put a whole lot of seriously thought into it, but what I do know is that I do not rely on blind faith.  To further convolute it, my dogtags state OPD, which is what I am by birth.

That all said, our Padres are an extremely valuable asset in the CF.  Regardless of religion, these people have a wealth of knowledge, not only in religion, but in human nature and psychology as well.  Eventhough, I am not religious, I have had many conversations with Padres of a few denominations, whether it be in passing or for advice.  Each one of those conversations was very informative and enlightening. 
« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 14:44:14 by GnyHwy »

jollyjacktar

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Re: CFAO 26-4: ID disc religion
« Reply #508 on: December 10, 2011, 12:16:36 »
More curiosity than anything, but if you don't believe, then you wouldn't think that any ceremony would have positive or negative effects;  it would just be pointless in your mind. Therefore, why does it matter what type of ceremony is done? 

I'm not trying to stir the pot or argue, just curious.  I myself may fall into the Atheist category, although by definition I am probably Agnostic (can't prove or disprove anything, therefore I am on the fence).  Quite frankly, I haven't put a whole lot of seriously thought into it, but what I do know is that I do not rely on blind faith.  To further convolute it, my dogtags state OPD, which is what I am by birth.

That all said, our Padres are a extremely valuable asset in the CF.  Regardless of religion, these people have a wealth of knowledge, not only in religion, but in human nature and psychology as well.  Eventhough, I am not religious, I have had many conversations with Padres of a few denominations, whether it be in passing or for advice.  Each one of those conversations was very informative and enlightening.
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Offline Towards_the_gap

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Re: CFAO 26-4: ID disc religion
« Reply #509 on: December 10, 2011, 12:39:17 »
To the replies to my post, seen, but the point I was making was that 99% of the time, your NOK will arrange all funeral details for you including what sort of service you wish.

Granted if your remains are 'behind enemy lines' then this may not be possible, but does anyone really expect any future foe to respect religion on a dog tag, and then take the time to bury the individual in accordance with said religion? I don't believe so, however that being said I recognise the ongoing need to keep religion on the discs.

On a somewhat related note, the Royal Engineer JNCO Cadre (British Section 2 IC Course) actually had a PO of 'perform a field burial', the lesson given by the Padre in front of an open grave. Believe it or not, this lesson was actually of some use many years later when dealing with KIA.


aesop081

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Re: CFAO 26-4: ID disc religion
« Reply #510 on: December 10, 2011, 12:59:10 »
but does anyone really expect any future foe to respect religion on a dog tag, and then take the time to bury the individual in accordance with said religion?

Not every potential enemy out there wants to cut your head off on Youtube or drag your body in the streets.

Offline GnyHwy

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Re: CFAO 26-4: ID disc religion
« Reply #511 on: December 10, 2011, 13:14:42 »
Does anyone know the protocol for Athieism? 

If the member doesn't want a ceremony, shouldn't that be respected?

I see the purpose of a ramp ceremony as a way of recognizing and respecting the fallen.  Can this be done without prayer?


Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: CFAO 26-4: ID disc religion
« Reply #512 on: December 10, 2011, 14:05:28 »
The ceremonies around death and burial are not just "for" or even wholly "about" the deceased. They also serve to comfort the living, to help them cope with the shock of the sudden death of a young comrade in arms (most people killed in battle are painfully young). If the deceased is a "registered" Atheist then the officiating officer or padre ought to structure the service so that a god is not invoked on behalf of the dead soldier, but that same officiating officer might well offer a heartfelt prayer for all those who grieve and who seek the comfort of religion.
 
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as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
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Offline Redeye

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Re: CFAO 26-4: ID disc religion
« Reply #513 on: December 10, 2011, 16:28:00 »
The ceremonies around death and burial are not just "for" or even wholly "about" the deceased. They also serve to comfort the living, to help them cope with the shock of the sudden death of a young comrade in arms (most people killed in battle are painfully young). If the deceased is a "registered" Atheist then the officiating officer or padre ought to structure the service so that a god is not invoked on behalf of the dead soldier, but that same officiating officer might well offer a heartfelt prayer for all those who grieve and who seek the comfort of religion.

The ramp ceremony is fine enough for that. It comes down, in my mind, to leaving clear instructions about your wishes. There's nothing worse than knowing that someone's funerary rites don't respect their beliefs or desires. My wife has a pretty good idea of what I'd want in the event of such an event, but in order to make it simpler, I've got specific instructions left with someone else as to what I want. Since I am an unapologetic atheist, there will be no religious overtone at all - in fact, all I want is to get people together for a party that will get as close to immortality as possible - one last big celebration of my life. Simple. All that matters.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: CFAO 26-4: ID disc religion
« Reply #514 on: December 10, 2011, 20:13:03 »
If I order ID disc's and put down "IC " under religion will they actually go through the effort of seeing if IC is on the approved list for abrevations?
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Offline FlyingDutchman

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Re: CFAO 26-4: ID disc religion
« Reply #515 on: December 14, 2011, 22:01:46 »
Since this is sort of on topic, I also have a question out of curiousity.  Logistics and 'quality' of the remains allowing, how would a person who wished to be cryogenictly frozen be dealt with?

EDIT: Typo
« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 01:57:21 by FlyingDutchman »
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Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: CFAO 26-4: ID disc religion
« Reply #516 on: December 15, 2011, 00:58:02 »
Since this is sort of on topic, I also have a question out of curiousity.  Logistics and 'quality' of the remains allowing, how would a person who wished to be cryogenictly frozen dealt with?

Probably in the same manner as all other members who die while serving - the NOK are contacted who, (either alone or in conjunction with the executor of the member's estate and depending on how they interpret the deceased wishes) make the arrangements for the deceased's final resting place.  Some of the costs related to the handling of the post-mortem popsicle remains may be reimbursable similar to other funeral/burials expenses as per CBI 210.20.
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Offline xXTheOneRavenXx

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Re: CFAO 26-4: ID disc religion
« Reply #517 on: January 05, 2012, 12:30:51 »
Jacktar - I know he is not alone, I was light-heartedly referring to an earlier statement he made:
Hypothesizing of course, that if the single, currently-identified Wiccan was to fall, who would know what to do with him?

Actually that is a good question. I does become a matter of the ICCMC (Interfaith Committee On Canadian Military Chaplaincy) whose correspondence is the Wiccan Church of Canada. From there they would be able to determine what tradition I follow and what burial rights are required.

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: CFAO 26-4: ID disc religion
« Reply #518 on: January 05, 2012, 12:35:55 »
Since this is sort of on topic, I also have a question out of curiousity.  Logistics and 'quality' of the remains allowing, how would a person who wished to be cryogenictly frozen be dealt with?

Reminds me of a Simpsons episode:

Quote
Smithers: "Mr. Smithers plus guest"...huh.  There's only one person I would want to
bring. [pulls a frozen Mr. Burns from a slot in the wall] Oh, Mr. Burns, we'll thaw you out
the second they discover the cure for seventeen stab wounds in the back.  How're we
doing, boys?
Frink: Well, we're up to fifteen!
Scientists: Yay!

Offline xXTheOneRavenXx

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Re: CFAO 26-4: ID disc religion
« Reply #519 on: January 05, 2012, 12:37:02 »
If I order ID disc's and put down "IC " under religion will they actually go through the effort of seeing if IC is on the approved list for abrevations?

If you check the list I included in a previous post, those are the authorized abbreviations.

Offline xXTheOneRavenXx

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Re: CFAO 26-4: ID disc religion
« Reply #520 on: January 06, 2012, 11:21:00 »
Jacktar - I know he is not alone, I was light-heartedly referring to an earlier statement he made:
Hypothesizing of course, that if the single, currently-identified Wiccan was to fall, who would know what to do with him?

lol, let me re-word that. I am NOT the only Wiccan in the forces, but I am the only Brigley in the forces.

Offline avgpjon

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Re: CFAO 26-4: ID disc religion
« Reply #521 on: February 20, 2012, 20:39:02 »
Found this, but I don't know the source:

Interesting to note that the previous designation MUS (Muslim) has been replaced by ISL (Islam).

A Muslim is the person; Islam is the religion.

I wonder what reasoning led to the change?


aesop081

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Re: CFAO 26-4: ID disc religion
« Reply #522 on: February 20, 2012, 20:43:46 »
I wonder what reasoning led to the change?

well.........

A Muslim is the person; Islam is the religion.



Offline GAP

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Re: CFAO 26-4: ID disc religion
« Reply #523 on: February 20, 2012, 20:50:21 »
Gee.....you think?
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Offline Wookilar

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Re: CFAO 26-4: ID disc religion
« Reply #524 on: February 21, 2012, 08:59:37 »
For more info, here is the official book for the Padre's (and the rest of us really):
http://cmp-cpm.forces.mil.ca/pub/rc/doc/rc-eng.pdf

It does not have the abbreviations, just some brief background on the recognized religions/sects in Canada.

DWAN only so far.

FYI, Wicca starts on p.117  ;D

Wook
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