Author Topic: Senior promotions, appointments and retirements (merged)  (Read 89128 times)

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Offline Brihard

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Re: Senior promotions, appointments and retirements (merged)
« Reply #150 on: February 13, 2019, 13:13:29 »
That brings us to what, over 100 generals and flag officers now (I've lost count)?

For roughly 88,000 pers complete.

116 total, and per the newest promotions list it looks like four of them are 'new', either from newly created positions, or positions that are up-ranked. There are I think 44 positions accounted for in the current CANFORGEN, of which 8 are overseas in either international HQs/Liaisons, serving as senior deputies in US formations, or deployed on international operations... So I'm ballparking maybe 20 or so of our GOFO positions are serving in capacities along those lines?

But yeah, that leaves close to 100 GOFOs as part of the actual CAF force structure... That's a lot...
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Offline MCG

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Re: Senior promotions, appointments and retirements (merged)
« Reply #151 on: February 13, 2019, 13:17:22 »
That brings us to what, over 100 generals and flag officers now (I've lost count)?

For roughly 88,000 pers complete.
According to one article that I read, there are now 116 general and flag officers.

Offline LunchMeat

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Re: Senior promotions, appointments and retirements (merged)
« Reply #152 on: February 13, 2019, 13:48:39 »
According to one article that I read, there are now 116 general and flag officers.

Which is still lower than the number we've had in previous years.

Although, we're still very top heavy putting us at approx. 1 GOFO for every 763 members.

UK cut a significant number of Generals and are at a 1:2400 ratio. USA is 1:2300.

Australia is apparently very top heavy as well, but I can't find any figures.

That said, 12 GOFOs retired and some are operational positions that will be temporary in nature.

Drop in the bucket compared to the other progress that the government and DND has made since 2015.

Procurement being pushed through faster than ever.

The NCM SIP increased by 9000 personnel.

First pay raises in decades.

Increase in release benefits and improved pension.

...and we're about 60 days from receiving the largest peacetime budget increase in recorded history.
"The most important six inches on the battlefield is between your ears.” ~General James "Mad Dog" Mattis, USMC

Offline MCG

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Re: Senior promotions, appointments and retirements (merged)
« Reply #153 on: February 13, 2019, 14:10:12 »
Which is still lower than the number we've had in previous years.
To which years are you comparing, and what was the size of the force in those years?

That said, 12 GOFOs retired ...
Their positions persist.  The number of GOFO is a symptom of the number of authorized positions.  Retirements do not change the number of positions.

Drop in the bucket compared to the other progress that the government and DND has made since 2015.
I don't know the metric by which to assess this statement.

Procurement being pushed through faster than ever.
Is it? The fighter replacement project does not seem to have much speed.  Light and heavy truck replacements are still years into the future for the Army. How do you come to your conclusion?

The NCM SIP increased by 9000 personnel.
We can increase SIP all we want and it will make no difference if the schools are not resourced to increase their production (and they are not).  We will just create ever larger holding organizations for bored, disillusioned recruits waiting to be trained.

First pay raises in decades.
This is not true.

...and we're about 60 days from receiving the largest peacetime budget increase in recorded history.
Are you clairvoyant or optimistic?

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Senior promotions, appointments and retirements (merged)
« Reply #154 on: February 13, 2019, 14:12:06 »
Decade old article, but in 2010 the Australian Defense Force had 172 GOFOs for roughly 55,000 pers.

Offline LunchMeat

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Re: Senior promotions, appointments and retirements (merged)
« Reply #155 on: February 13, 2019, 14:44:59 »
To which years are you comparing, and what was the size of the force in those years?

Previous 5 years, CAF had well over 120 GOFOs per year.

Their positions persist.  The number of GOFO is a symptom of the number of authorized positions.  Retirements do not change the number of positions.

At the very bottom of the article, there is a laundry list of retirements, but no indication of appointments to replace them. Therefore one could infer it's a reduction in number of positions.

I don't know the metric by which to assess this statement.

Meaning the cost of these GOFOs are a drop in the bucket compare to the rest of the goings-on in the DND.

Is it? The fighter replacement project does not seem to have much speed.  Light and heavy truck replacements are still years into the future for the Army. How do you come to your conclusion?

The ML and MS fleet have been replaced. The TAPV has entered service. While there is still work being done to replace the LSVW and LUVW, there has been a fleet of LOSV added and CANSOF received a fleet of brand new LUTVs. We saw the creation of a new Maritime Tactical Security Group. Fighter Project is being mishandled sure, but we have new helmets, new fighting rigs, Supply Ships pushed up in priority, new ranger rifles, C6 GPMG upgrades, extensive upgrades to the Victoria Class fleet, Griffons undergoing major lifecycle upgrades. I could go on, but these were all things neglected by the previous government.

We can increase SIP all we want and it will make no difference if the schools are not resourced to increase their production (and they are not).  We will just create ever larger holding organizations for bored, disillusioned recruits waiting to be trained.

Hopefully the budget will help with that. The increase in the SIP will help fill manpower shortages as well. I forgot to mention that the size of the Reserve Force has doubled and more and more units are being operationalized.

This is not true.

Really? Because they last "raises" we got prior to 2015 were simply cost of living adjustments. Last real pay raise was 2009, nearly a decade ago.

Are you clairvoyant or optimistic?

It was in the government's long term funding plan. Budget is due to increase $580m CAD for the 2019/2020 fiscal year. It's all available on public domain

"The most important six inches on the battlefield is between your ears.” ~General James "Mad Dog" Mattis, USMC

Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Senior promotions, appointments and retirements (merged)
« Reply #156 on: February 13, 2019, 14:47:28 »
Which is still lower than the number we've had in previous years.

Although, we're still very top heavy putting us at approx. 1 GOFO for every 763 members.

UK cut a significant number of Generals and are at a 1:2400 ratio. USA is 1:2300.

Australia is apparently very top heavy as well, but I can't find any figures.

That said, 12 GOFOs retired and some are operational positions that will be temporary in nature.

Drop in the bucket compared to the other progress that the government and DND has made since 2015.

Procurement being pushed through faster than ever.

The NCM SIP increased by 9000 personnel.

First pay raises in decades.

Increase in release benefits and improved pension.

...and we're about 60 days from receiving the largest peacetime budget increase in recorded history.

I will be less diplomatic than MCG... What are you smoking ?  And can I have some ?
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Offline LunchMeat

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Re: Senior promotions, appointments and retirements (merged)
« Reply #157 on: February 13, 2019, 14:51:06 »
I will be less diplomatic than MCG... What are you smoking ?  And can I have some ?

See my responses above.

I know that military personnel are born, bred, trained to hate anything Liberal, but you guys are being asinine to ignore the progress that has been made.
"The most important six inches on the battlefield is between your ears.” ~General James "Mad Dog" Mattis, USMC

Offline Infanteer

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Re: Senior promotions, appointments and retirements (merged)
« Reply #158 on: February 13, 2019, 15:01:20 »
I believe the number is 132 GOFOs, when reserve positions are taken into account.
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Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Senior promotions, appointments and retirements (merged)
« Reply #159 on: February 13, 2019, 15:05:48 »
See my responses above.

I know that military personnel are born, bred, trained to hate anything Liberal, but you guys are being asinine to ignore the progress that has been made.

Ok now you lost me... again, pass to the left home boy
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Offline LunchMeat

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Re: Senior promotions, appointments and retirements (merged)
« Reply #160 on: February 13, 2019, 15:26:57 »
Ok now you lost me... again, pass to the left home boy

Okay, so all anyone has to say about what I've posted is some weed jokes and "That is not true", "I don't know how to answer that" etc., rather than actually dispute what I'm saying with concrete evidence.


Cool.
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Offline JesseWZ

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Re: Senior promotions, appointments and retirements (merged)
« Reply #161 on: February 13, 2019, 15:52:09 »
Okay, so all anyone has to say about what I've posted is some weed jokes and "That is not true", "I don't know how to answer that" etc., rather than actually dispute what I'm saying with concrete evidence.


Cool.

If you read the CANFORGEN more carefully, you'll note the laundry list of retirements at the end are mostly all personnel already mentioned in the preceding paragraphs. All of which are positions which now have incumbents. A net positive to the number of GOFO personnel heading into APS.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 16:25:12 by JesseWZ »
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Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Senior promotions, appointments and retirements (merged)
« Reply #162 on: February 13, 2019, 16:05:02 »
Okay, so all anyone has to say about what I've posted is some weed jokes and "That is not true", "I don't know how to answer that" etc., rather than actually dispute what I'm saying with concrete evidence.


Cool.

I'm just lost about how you managed to tie your perceived military negative bias towards liberals to this subject.   :dunno:
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Offline MCG

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Re: Senior promotions, appointments and retirements (merged)
« Reply #163 on: February 13, 2019, 16:29:13 »
First pay raises in decades.
This is not true.
Really? Because they last "raises" we got prior to 2015 were simply cost of living adjustments. Last real pay raise was 2009, nearly a decade ago.
You seem to be having trouble, so I will help you.  You claimed "decades" then countered it being pointed out as untrue with "nearly a decade ago."  When you claim multiple tens of years while the truth is less then ten years, your statement is not true.  So if you are going to hold ground around that lie, what other mistruth or hyperbole are your doubling down on?

Okay, so all anyone has to say about what I've posted is some weed jokes and "That is not true", "I don't know how to answer that" etc., rather than actually dispute what I'm saying with concrete evidence.
When what you post is not true (demonstrably by your very own evidence), then what more can you want? Why do you feel your unsubstantiated broad statements deserve more deference than the statements of others (because, let's face it you have also not brought any concrete evidence)?

The ML and MS fleet have been replaced. The TAPV has entered service. While there is still work being done to replace the LSVW and LUVW, there has been a fleet of LOSV added and CANSOF received a fleet of brand new LUTVs. We saw the creation of a new Maritime Tactical Security Group. Fighter Project is being mishandled sure, but we have new helmets, new fighting rigs, Supply Ships pushed up in priority, new ranger rifles, C6 GPMG upgrades, extensive upgrades to the Victoria Class fleet, Griffons undergoing major lifecycle upgrades. I could go on, but these were all things neglected by the previous government.
This looks like progress as usual. There are always projects in progress and projects delivering.  Many of the things you point to here have been ongoing since the last government was in place, and these were bound to be delivering regardless of election outcomes.

When you say the MS fleet has been replaced, what do you mean?  The MSVS MilCOTS has not been replaced; it will continue in service beside the MSVS SMP.  What do you mean when you say "new fighting rigs" and who has these?

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Re: Senior promotions, appointments and retirements (merged)
« Reply #164 on: February 13, 2019, 16:33:43 »
I did the UXO clearance of the ground for the proposed TAPV barn in Petawawa about five years ago, so they were a thing long before our current gov.
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

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Offline Loachman

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Re: Senior promotions, appointments and retirements (merged)
« Reply #165 on: February 13, 2019, 18:05:56 »
The ML and MS fleet have been replaced.

What has replaced the ML? Why haven't I seen any? Why are there some MLs a couple of hundred metres east of where I work?

Griffons undergoing major lifecycle upgrades.

"Major"? It's not called "Griffon Limited Life Extension" ("GLLE", pronounced "Glee") for nothing. In its current form, it will not be able to legally fly IFR in a few short years. The mods that will be done are important, yes, but there will be no increase in actual military capability.

I could go on, but these were all things neglected by the previous government.

You mean the government that bought C17s, C130Js, two batches of CH147, Leopard 2s, Lav 6s, GAU-21 (.50 cal) and M-134D (7.62 mm) for Griffon, a host of route clearance equipment for Afghanistan, and actually initiated the Ranger rifle programme?

The increase in the SIP will help fill manpower shortages as well.

Presuming that enough people apply, can be recruited, can be trained, and can effectively be integrated into units.

I forgot to mention that the size of the Reserve Force has doubled and more and more units are being operationalized.

I have yet to see twice as many Reservists wandering around.

It was in the government's long term funding plan. Budget is due to increase $580m CAD for the 2019/2020 fiscal year.

That amount is not even enough to pay for GLLE.

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Senior promotions, appointments and retirements (merged)
« Reply #166 on: February 13, 2019, 19:40:42 »
I did the UXO clearance of the ground for the proposed TAPV barn in Petawawa about five years ago, so they were a thing long before our current gov.

You did a good job, the TAPVs are blowing themselves up, no issues with UXO...  :nod:

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Re: Senior promotions, appointments and retirements (merged)
« Reply #167 on: February 13, 2019, 19:48:20 »
I can almost guarantee there's practically nearly zero chances of anyone driving over a 155 over there.
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

“In peace there's nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility; but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger; stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with hard-favor'd rage.”

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Offline Pusser

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Re: Senior promotions, appointments and retirements (merged)
« Reply #168 on: February 14, 2019, 12:28:16 »
Whenever folks scream about how top heavy an organization is, they tend to look at the past, in our case generally to WWII.  Furthermore, they often seem to look at essentially an army model based on number of subordinates (e.g. generals command armies, lieutenant generals command corps, etc).  However, sometimes that is comparing apples to oranges.  First off, it's the level of responsibility that determines the appropriate rank level, not the number of subordinates.  Secondly, things have changed since the Napoleonic Wars WWII and there are strategic level jobs that require higher levels of responsibility, but which have not generated higher levels of personnel.

On another note, the last "real" pay raise in the CAF occurred in 1999, when the comparability formula between the public service and the CAF was recalculated.  Other than that, virtually ALL pay raises are cost of living adjustments.  Our pay is not directly negotiated based on occupations, but is instead benchmarked against the Public Service.  If a PS occupation receives an increase as a result of a recalculation of its worth, than yes, theoretically, it gets rolled up into CAF pay rates through the comparability formula, but its effect on overall CAF pay rates is minimal.  The only CAF pay rates that are affected by market forces (i.e. market demand for certain occupations, equaling "real" pay increases) are Specialist Officer rates (e.g. doctors, lawyers, etc).
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Offline Log Offr

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Re: Senior promotions, appointments and retirements (merged)
« Reply #169 on: February 24, 2019, 12:05:56 »
Whenever folks scream about how top heavy an organization is, they tend to look at the past, in our case generally to WWII.  Furthermore, they often seem to look at essentially an army model based on number of subordinates (e.g. generals command armies, lieutenant generals command corps, etc).  However, sometimes that is comparing apples to oranges.  First off, it's the level of responsibility that determines the appropriate rank level, not the number of subordinates.  Secondly, things have changed since the Napoleonic Wars WWII and there are strategic level jobs that require higher levels of responsibility, but which have not generated higher levels of personnel.

I concur. I think a complementary question to ask alongside how many GOFO our allies have is how many Public Service Executives there are in other Canadian Federal Government Departments. In addition to military strategic jobs that require a GOFO despite a relatively small workforce working under them, there are ample positions where the Canadian GOFO is doing a purely corporate function alongside civilian EX ranks (of which we also have a few, lol). The rank might be impressive, but the jobs are not. Corporate grind all they way, with maybe a crack at some kind of escape to an OUTCAN or, for a very very very select few GOFO, some kind of command back in the CAF. The Government, however, demands that its largest Department manage itself properly, and that requires Executives. They can't all be civilian EX, either. We benefit from having uniformed GOFO representing our needs to the Department and to other Government Agencies that we need to operate, even though they aren't directly leading most of us.

Offline DetectiveMcNulty

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Re: Senior promotions, appointments and retirements (merged)
« Reply #170 on: February 24, 2019, 12:30:17 »
You did a good job, the TAPVs are blowing themselves up, no issues with UXO...  :nod:

So the TAPV is a CRAPV?

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Senior promotions, appointments and retirements (merged)
« Reply #171 on: February 24, 2019, 12:47:07 »
Perhaps relevant on promotions by a serving USAF officer (using a pseudonym)--start of piece:

Quote
Being or Doing in the Air Force
Col. 'Ned Stark'

“There are two career paths in front of you, and you have to choose which path you will follow. One path leads to promotions, titles, and positions of distinction […] The other path leads to doing things that are truly significant for the Air Force, but the rewards will quite often be a kick in the stomach because you may have to cross swords with the party line on occasion. You can’t go down both paths, you have to choose. […] To be or to do, that is the question.” —Col. John Boyd

Life is about choices. We can’t control what happens to us, but we always have a choice in how to respond. Those choices reveal who we are. I once heard it said that we tend to judge people based on their actions even though we judge ourselves based on our intentions. There is some truth to that, but I’d like to suggest it’s not just our intentions, it’s also our rationalizations — the explanations we create for ourselves to justify the choices we’ve made. Many hear John Boyd’s remarks quoted above and convince themselves that it’s a false dichotomy — they can both be and do. I think it is a possible but rare thing. We all like to think we are the exception, but the odds are heavily stacked against that. I’d like to suggest there’s a spectrum with the pure careerist at one end and the pure doer at the other. Few, if any, people reside at the polar ends, but it’s safe to say the pressures and expectations at senior ranks tend to push people further toward the careerist pole the higher they climb in the ranks.

The e-mail engagements I have had with some of my readers who have reached out have been illuminating. Through that correspondence and my own networks, I can point to several general officers as examples of those who have compromised themselves in an effort “to be,” but for sake of brevity I will briefly describe two. One general actively advises proteges to avoid e-mail or any form of note taking to escape accountability for any decisions or discussions. This general is held in low regard by past and current superiors yet continues to advance because there is no accountability for missed opportunities. In other words, this general successfully avoids all meaningful risk by pursuing a strategy of inaction. Another general officer mischaracterized his knowledge about an issue to investigators, thereby leaving a subordinate “holding the bag” for years while a needless and protracted investigation ensued. The investigation eventually cleared the subordinate of any wrong doing but not before it destroyed the individual’s personal life and professional aspirations. In the meantime, that general was promoted again.

I have little doubt both of those generals started off as bright, capable, and well-intentioned officers, but somewhere along the line, they, and many others, have lost their way...

Col. ‘Ned Stark’ is an Air Force officer. His opinions are his alone and do not represent those of the U.S. Air Force, the Department of Defense, or any part of the U.S. government, but he hopes one day they will come closer.
https://warontherocks.com/2019/02/being-or-doing-in-the-air-force/

Mark
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