Poll

Is HF necessary on todays battlefield?

Yes
26 (92.9%)
No
0 (0%)
Depends on how we structure the military
2 (7.1%)

Total Members Voted: 22

Voting closed: April 20, 2005, 15:49:08

Author Topic: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause  (Read 44677 times)

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Offline Navalsnipr

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #100 on: December 17, 2007, 22:03:04 »
It depends on the height above ground of the emmiting antenna and the height above ground of the receiving antenna.

This is based on ship to ship communications with the VHF antennas placed up the mast at approx 75 feet. However due to sea state conditions (wave height), depending where the ship(s) sits on the wave (peak or trough) the range can be increased/reduced drastically.
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Offline NFLD Sapper

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #101 on: December 17, 2007, 22:04:50 »
Let's see?  I've talked to Range Control in Dundurn, Saskatchewan from Landry Crossing in Petawawa.  I've talked to Range Control on their "Push" in Ft Benning Georgia from the top of the Lawfield Corridor in Gagetown.  All on HF.  Now that was good "Skip".  Now we are talking all kinds of things.  Harmonics.  Ionosphere.  Atmosphere.  Curvature of the Earth.  Weather conditions...........and the characteristics of Radio Waves and many other things I don't remember from my Math and Physics days.

WOW!!

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Offline Navalsnipr

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #102 on: December 17, 2007, 22:08:10 »
Before Satellite/Email, we in the Navy used to do a lot of CFARS (CANADIAN FORCES AFFILIATE RADIO SYSTEM) phone patches. With it local amateur radio operators would receipt the HF call and connect it to a land line phone so that personnel could call their families. Many patches were made in various locations in Europe from Norway to the Mediterranean we would contact a station in Vancouver some 5000 + miles away.
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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #103 on: December 17, 2007, 22:18:11 »
Quote
Squelch!

Turn on the Squelch.

The Squelch (such as it is) on the Sea King HF set also kind of doubles as the volume.  Luckily, missions only last for 2.5 hrs.  And, most AES Ops are nearly deaf.  Hmmm....I wonder if the two are related?   ;)

Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #104 on: December 17, 2007, 23:29:15 »
Only two ships are fitted with SHF (East Coast 280's for their command roles with NATO)   

HF Comms are essential in today's world, if you think otherwise, just head up the CCR on any Canadian ship when there is a UHF Satcom interruption or a Lease Line issue......
Take away the CO's ability to receive information from shore authorities and watch everyone spin.


Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #105 on: December 17, 2007, 23:51:08 »
Only two ships are fitted with SHF (East Coast 280's for their command roles with NATO)  

HF Comms are essential in today's world, if you think otherwise, just head up the CCR on any Canadian ship when there is a UHF Satcom interruption or a Lease Line issue......
Take away the CO's ability to receive information from shore authorities and watch everyone spin.

Really....wow I was not aware of that....

Do you think I would mention a system if I did not have a degree of familiarity with it?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2007, 23:55:43 by Ex-Dragoon »
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Offline Willy

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #106 on: December 18, 2007, 01:47:12 »
VHF in my experience works up to 15-20 nautical miles. I've seen in certain parts of the world the range reduced and increased up to 30-40 nautical miles (Tropospheric Ducting) when we were operating in the Souther Mediterranean regions.

All true, but it's worthwhile to note that over land it's completely different than over water.  Seawater has a high dielectric constant so it assists RF propagation quite a bit, meaning that you get more range over salt water than you would over land.  Also, since the ocean is flat, there are no obstructions to impede propagation i.e. mountains, large buildings, etc.

You may get 50Km out of an A+ set on the prairies, but you won't get that same range in the middle of the rockies- the mountains will get in the way.  Even in the Middle Eastern desert, which is pretty flat in places, you get a much reduced range because of the extremely low conductivity of the desert terrain.  So there are a lot of factors that go into this.

Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #107 on: December 18, 2007, 07:51:30 »
Really....wow I was not aware of that....

Do you think I would mention a system if I did not have a degree of familiarity with it?

That was not directed at you, but I will answer your question anyway.  No.    You might have known that, but I sure that some others didn't.  Its no big deal, I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers or should I say scales?

I threw that out there for our non-naval/non-military types out there, yes we have it but it's only on two ships and we have to get permission from another country to use it.   
« Last Edit: December 18, 2007, 08:26:57 by Dolphin_Hunter »

Offline Bintheredunthat-Muzzled

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #108 on: December 19, 2007, 09:52:24 »
You may get 50Km out of an A+ set on the prairies, but you won't get that same range in the middle of the rockies- the mountains will get in the way.  Even in the Middle Eastern desert, which is pretty flat in places, you get a much reduced range because of the extremely low conductivity of the desert terrain.  So there are a lot of factors that go into this.

A little birdy told me that he got comms from A to B at nearly 200km using one Rebro, in the sand nonetheless.   :warstory:

Certainly deserves a pat on the back - if only I could have witnessed it myself.   :(

I don't want to poke in here just to say something that's already been said, but I know for a fact that some CCO's show alot of interest in revitalizing HF and UHF as well.  But, perhaps that's just one of the "old guys" wanting to get back to his roots.  There are still a few of us who prefer to stay with what we know.

I'd like to meet anyone off their QL3 Sig Op who can honestly say they are confident with anything besides VHF.  Not likely to happen as I don't believe it's anywhere in the TP except perhaps a slide in one presentation.  I think it really all comes down to what happens outside of Canada.  A requirement will need to be established for someone to say, "Hey, we have to put this back into the forefront of our training" in order for us to see anything new......errrr.....old.......whatever.

I'll make a blind prediction and say, within 20 years, the CF will use HF more actively than we do today.  Not taking any bets though. 

Bin

Offline Willy

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Re: HF - Lost art or Lost Cause
« Reply #109 on: December 20, 2007, 01:38:59 »
A little birdy told me that he got comms from A to B at nearly 200km using one Rebro, in the sand nonetheless.  

I'd want to ask your birdy how he did it.  AE configuration, counterpoise, grounding, what sort of sporadic E was going on that day & if the 1 x RRB was mounted in an aircraft at 30 000 feet, but if the birdy did it, then my hat's off to him, no matter how he cheated.  ;D