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Offline Infanteer

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The CV90 Fan Page
« on: March 03, 2005, 15:33:59 »
Since this vehicle seems to be:

- A multi-purpose chassis for combined operations

- A light and flexible (ie: expeditionary) chassis

- A fan-favorite amongst a good amount of the membership here

I thought I'd leave a little thread for discussion on it.

Seems that the Dutch have chosen to bring the system on board:

http://www.alvishagglunds.se/default.asp

Major order for Land Systems Hägglunds
10 Dec 2004

 BAE Systems Land Systems Hägglunds has won a 749 million euro ( £520m) order from the Netherlands for its CV90 armoured vehicle. The Netherlands Army and Land Systems Hägglunds will sign a contract for the delivery of 184 infantry fighting vehicles on 13 December. Deliveries will be made during the years 2007 to 2010.
Product Data

Land Systems Hägglunds' CV9035 was selected for the Dutch infantry fighting vehicle programme after an extensive competitive evaluation. State secretary for Defence Cees van der Knaap stated in a letter to the Dutch parliament on 29 October: "The outcome of the evaluation is that the CV90 fulfils the requirements, has the lowest risk, the lowest price and the fastest delivery time.â ?
The Dutch Ministry of Economic Affairs also had a preference for CV90, based on strong involvement of Dutch industry and the high levels of firm commitments.
Sweden, Norway, Switzerland and Finland have all selected the CV90 and the new Dutch contract brings the total ordered to 1125. "The large fleet gives existing and new customers considerable advantages such as a broader base for cost-sharing of future upgrades and spare parts and international interoperability. Already today the CV90 is used internationally by Sweden and Norway,â ? said Land Systems Hägglunds managing director Sven KÃ¥gevall.

The CV9035 is a further development of the CV90 IFV. It features enhanced firepower, survivability, mobility, ergonomics and advanced electronic architecture with implemented C4I systems. The main armament is a Bushmaster III 35/50 cannon with a computerised fire control system, incorporating ammunition programmer. The commander has a rotating cupola for maximum visibility and both the commander and gunner have fully stabilised day and night sights with third-generation thermal cameras.

The vehicle will be delivered in two configurations, infantry fighting vehicle and command vehicle. Both have three-man crews. The IFV can carry a squad of seven and the command version has a staff group of four.

Sven KÃ¥gevall added: â ?It is most encouraging that we have been given the confidence to carry through such an important contract after substantial competition. It strengthens the CV90 position as the infantry fighting vehicle for Europe and Land Systems Hägglunds' position in future procurement programmes.â ?
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline big bad john (John Hill)

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2005, 15:38:34 »
The British Army is looking at the CV90 family also, but I don't think anything will come of it.  Buy British you know with Labour in power.

Offline Infanteer

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2005, 17:24:16 »
http://www.baesystems.se/default.asp

It seems that Alvis Hagglunds is moving to a "Modular Chassis" design for the Army of the Future - probably something similar to the American FCS.

Are we getting on this bandwagon, or are we going to continue to by land systems piecemeal, thereby ensuring that we field 4 or 5 different chassis with the requisite increased logistical footprint, O&M, training costs, etc.

---
SEP
 SEP (Swedish abbreviation for "Splitterskyddad EnhetsPlattformâ ?, Modular Armoured Tactical System) is a modular multi-role vehicle system. SEP combines the high valued parameters:
- Low systemcost
- Low signature
- High mobility
- High flexibility
- High reliability
- Extremely high load capacity (weight/volume)in relation to vehicle weight/volume into a system for the future armed forces.
 
SEP Modular concept
Background
The modular design allows the vehicle to be configured for more than twenty different roles including armoured personnel carrier, command post, ambulance, medical vehicle, anti-tank missile system, anti aircraft missile system, mortar vehicle, reconnaissance, forward observation vehicle, nuclear, biological and chemical warfare decontamination centre, mine clearing and mine scattering, recovery and repair, communication post, radar, electronic warfare.


The mission or role specific modules can be fitted on both the SEP-track and SEP wheel vehicle base units. Plug in building blocks will be used allowing fast adaptation to different tasks and quick upgrades as new technologies become available.

The electric transmission system (i.e. the drive shafts have been replaced by cable and the power from the engines is transferred by cable) gives a number of advantages including volume efficiency, fuel efficiency, reduced life cycle costs, reduced environmental impact and increased stealth characteristics. The engine is decoupled from the final drives allowing flexibility in the placing of systems in the vehicle and also easily allows two engines to be installed instead of one. Batteries are integrated into the electric drive system which allows the vehicle to be driven silently with the engines shut down.

The useable internal volume of 10 cubic metres in the role module is substantially increased over a conventionally powered vehicle of a similar length. The SEP fully laden weight is 16,6 tonnes and the load capacity is up to 6 tonnes. The top speed for the wheeled and tracked variants are 100 kilometres per hour and for the wheeled variant 85 kilometres per hour. The dimensions of the vehicle 5.9 metres, width 2.7 metres and height 1.9 metres for the tracked version and 2.0 metres for the wheeled version give the vehicle a low profile and signature.

DEVELOPMENT
Studies on the SEP began in 1995 and the first SEP-track demonstrator was delivered to the Swedish Defence Materiel administration Forsvarets materialverk (FMV) in November 2000 for trials and evaluation. By 2003 the vehicle had covered over 2,000 kilometres in various trials. In September 2001, FMV placed a contract on Hägglunds for the development of the wheeled version of SEP and a wheeled variant prototype demonstrator, SEP-wheel, was delivered to FMV in 2003. In 2003 FMV placed a risk reduction contract on Hägglunds involving the construction of a second tracked SEP testbed vehicle among a lot of different risk reduction activities.

In a parallel program, Hägglunds was also co-ordinating the industrial effort in a six nation, All Electric Vehicle project with the participation of Finland, Holland, Italy, Greece, Sweden and Turkey.


WHEELED SEP
The SEP-Wheeled vehicle has 3 axles and is driven through all six wheels. The propulsion system is based on two engines with electric transmission and with integrated 100 kW maximum power, permanent magnet type, electric motors in the wheel hubs. The motors are fitted with a two speed reduction gear.

The wheels are mounted with double cast-steel wishbones with short torsion bar spring. The front wheels are steered normally, the centre wheels are not steered and the rear wheels are steered to provide steering at low to medium speeds and to cut out the rear wheel steering at high road speeds to maintain high speed stability. The wheels are fitted with 405/70 type R24 tires.



 
SEP Winter
Background TRACKED SEP
The tracked vehicles are fitted with rubber bandtracks rather than conventional steel link tracks. The band tracks are lighter, quieter and have a longer operational life. The noise developed by the running gear is reduced. The operational life is about twice that of an equivalent steel linked track, contributing to lower life-cycle costs. Bandtracks also have a lower rolling resistance. The lower rolling resistance and the efficiency of the engines and electric transmission systems give the vehicle higher fuel efficiency.


Band track technology has been used previously by Hägglunds on the Bv206 articulated carriers which use short track length bandtracks. The longer life of the bandtracks gives advantages in lower maintenance requirements and in lower costs. The logistical requirements of judging wear, carrying spare tracks and replacing band tracks in the field will be confirmed during development trials.

In the SEP-tracked vehicle the suspension is mounted to the underframe and not on the side frames, so the suspension is separated from the hull. A result of using a decoupled suspension and bandtracks is that the internal noise level is as low as 85dB which is sufficiently low to meet civilian vehicle noise requirements.

The suspension being mounted on the underframe also provides a spaced outer layer which gives improved protection against mines. The SEP vehicle can withstand a 7 kilogram TNT explosion under a track.

The vehicles are capable of operation in a many different types of terrain
and in a wide range of climatic conditions.

ELECTRONICS
The vehicle uses a new electronic architecture developed by Hägglunds, based on an open scalable, fault tolerant databus which manages all the on-board systems and the crew interfaces including the weapons systems, battlefield management, defensive aids suite, built in test, digital radio communications and other mission or role specific systems.

CREW STATIONS
The SEP design incorporates built in component redundancy, for example there are duplicate crew stations and the vehicle is able to continue operations with only one of the two diesel engines running.

The crew stations and the SEP man-machine interface is subject to detailed studies in the ongoing Risk reduction contract. Much effort will be learnt from the collaborative project VETEC by Hägglunds of Sweden and Diehl Geräte of Germany and which was sponsored by the Swedish Defence Materiel administration Försvarets materialverk (FMV) and the German Federal Office for Defence Technology and Procurement

STEALTH

The new electric drive vehicle SEP has greatly improved stealth characteristics in terms of thermal and acoustic signatures as well as low visual and radar signatures. The continuous rubber band tracks are very much quieter and lighter than conventional steel tracks.

ENGINES
The SEP uses two commercially available diesel engines placed in the sponsons of the vehicle. This gives the advantage of a totally clear central volume of the vehicle compared with traditional build with a large engine compartment interfering.


PROTECTION
The different zones of the vehicle have different levels of ballistic protection. With the highest level of protection for the personnel compartment. The hull is of high hardness steel armour construction rated to protect against shell fragments and rifle rounds. The 1.5 tonnes add on armour includes ceramic tiles and provides protection against 14.5 mm armour piercing rounds. Heavier armour provides protection against 30 mm armour piercing fin stabilised discarding sabot (30 mm APPFSDS) rounds.


SPECIFICATION
Empty weight 10.1 tonnes
Maximum fully laden weight 16.6 tonnes

Crew 2
Length 5.9 metres
Height tracked SEP 1.9 metres
Height wheeled SEP 2.0 metres
Width 2.7 metres
Air transportable within C-130 envelope

Power
Diesel engines 2


Performance
Forward speed tracked SEP 85 kilometres per hour
Forward speed wheeled SEP 100 kilometres per hour
Operational life 30 years

Payload, universal load carrier 6 tonnes
Payload, personnel transport 4.5 tonnes
Number soldiers, APC role 12 soldiers
Internal volume 13 cubic metres
Role volume 10 cubic metres


"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2005, 17:41:44 »
The neat thing about the SEP wheeled with independent motors on each wheel is that it does away with one of the arguments used to favour track in confined spaces.  It allows pivot steering as the left side wheels can be reversed while the other side continues forwards. It might also be possible to just wrap a track directly over the wheels to give an expedient improved cross-country capability.

And it's lovely and quiet with lots of spare electricity to recharge batteries and run electric chain saws etc.

I'm a big fan of Hagglunds generally.
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

Offline Thucydides

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2005, 22:45:38 »
I liked the "pickup truck" concept: one chassis and bolt on the modular systems you need. Other possibilities include battlefield repair (pop off the damaged module and bolt on a new one); and training, put the modules on the armoury floor and hook up the electronics to the DWAN for use as training simulators.

BBJ; if you noticed the tag on the origional article, the company is BAE Systems Land Systems Hägglunds ( BAE = British Aerospace Engineering). While this doesn't preclude political shenanigans derailing an honest assesment by the British Army (i.e. if Vickers is to Labour what Bombardier is to the Liberals), at least they have an "in".
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Zipper

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2005, 23:36:24 »
Wow. As much as I love the CV-90, thanks to Majoor. The SEP looks like it has the best of most worlds. That is impressive.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2005, 02:21:54 by Zipper »
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Offline Spr.Earl

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2005, 23:41:36 »
I still like KISS.
Keep It Simple Stupid!!!

That's why China is going to beat us.
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Offline big bad john (John Hill)

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2005, 00:05:19 »
I liked the "pickup truck" concept: one chassis and bolt on the modular systems you need. Other possibilities include battlefield repair (pop off the damaged module and bolt on a new one); and training, put the modules on the armoury floor and hook up the electronics to the DWAN for use as training simulators.

BBJ; if you noticed the tag on the origional article, the company is BAE Systems Land Systems Hägglunds ( BAE = British Aerospace Engineering). While this doesn't preclude political shenanigans derailing an honest assesment by the British Army (i.e. if Vickers is to Labour what Bombardier is to the Liberals), at least they have an "in".

The way it works is that BAE has the licence to sell in certain countries.  But the parts are still made in Sweden and assembled in the UK or where ever.  Labour would never let that happen.  Alvis Vickers will have to come up with something better than the Warrior and soon.

Offline Thucydides

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2005, 00:15:28 »
I still like KISS.
Keep It Simple Stupid!!!

That's why China is going to beat us.

A simple "human wave" attack pitted about one Infantry Regiment against 2 PPCLI at a place called Kapyong;  and history tells us WE were the winners........
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Tango2Bravo

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2005, 18:35:35 »
A little while ago I worked in a little HQ that included a wide variety of nationalities including a Norwegian force that had brought a platoon of CV9030s.  I had just had a tour of the vehicles with one of the crews and was doing my shift on the radios.  I guess I was looking a little quiet and withdrawn (not my normal state).  The Kiwi asked me what was wrong.  The Norwegian armoured officer present noted astutely, "He misses his tank."

The CV9030 certainly is a nice piece of kit.  Tracks, quiet, low slung, chain gun.  Bear in mind that they still have panzers to send out with it for warfighting tasks.  Add on the various other models and you have a great family of vehicles.  I think that that ship has sailed for us.  I still like the Coyote and LAV III, but I can always look around...

Cheers,

2B
Well-trained, older Panzer crews are the decisive factor for success...It is preferable to start off with fewer Panzers than to set out with young crews who lack combat experience.

 - Verbal report of Gen Balck 1943

Offline Infanteer

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2005, 19:02:15 »
Do you feel the CV90-120 tank is a good trade off between a 70-ton behemoth and a LAV (MGS or otherwise)?
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline Tango2Bravo

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2005, 20:02:57 »
To be perfectly honest I do not know enough about the 120mm version.  Is it the same 120mm as found on the Leo 2 and Abrams?  I imagine that its weight would tip the scales over 30 tons (I think that the 30mm armed version is around 25 tons).  Tracks and hitting power but deployable by Antonov would be a good compromise, although it would most likely still not be able to stand up to the punishment that the latest heavy armour can.  At least it would have tactical mobility and my gut tells me that it would be superior to the MGS.  It could work nicely in my conceptual Cavalry!  If we put the Coyote gear on some of them and "scouts" in the rest we'd be away to the races.  I feel that a CV90 force would be superior to a LAV force in warfighting scenarios due mainly to the tracks vs wheels issue and the lower silouettes.  Still, both the LAVs and CV90s would have protection issues.

I always liked the idea of the Scorpian.  This is heavier, of course, but there are some similarities.

Cheers,

2B
Well-trained, older Panzer crews are the decisive factor for success...It is preferable to start off with fewer Panzers than to set out with young crews who lack combat experience.

 - Verbal report of Gen Balck 1943

Offline Thucydides

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2005, 16:00:23 »
Break down the wheeled SEP a bit, and have the electric hub motor and wheel assembly as the basic element:

4 X 4 chassis: Utility vehicle and chassis for light recce

6 X 6 chassis: Medium TPT vehicle and chassis for light armoured veh

8 X 8 chassis: LAV vehicle family replacement

8 X 8 chassis, extended: HLVW family replacement

The motor generator assemblies would be upgraded as the chassis size increases.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2005, 16:16:47 »
Neat concept a_majoor. :salute:
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Offline PatrickO

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2005, 23:35:04 »
To be perfectly honest I do not know enough about the 120mm version. Is it the same 120mm as found on the Leo 2 and Abrams? I imagine that its weight would tip the scales over 30 tons (I think that the 30mm armed version is around 25 tons). Tracks and hitting power but deployable by Antonov would be a good compromise, although it would most likely still not be able to stand up to the punishment that the latest heavy armour can. At least it would have tactical mobility and my gut tells me that it would be superior to the MGS. It could work nicely in my conceptual Cavalry! If we put the Coyote gear on some of them and "scouts" in the rest we'd be away to the races. I feel that a CV90 force would be superior to a LAV force in warfighting scenarios due mainly to the tracks vs wheels issue and the lower silouettes. Still, both the LAVs and CV90s would have protection issues.

I always liked the idea of the Scorpian. This is heavier, of course, but there are some similarities.

Cheers,

2B

Please don't attack me for speaking out of turn, but i do know some things about the CV90-120, based on what i've read in Jane's and AFV encyclopedias. the 120mm smoothbore is made by Swiss Ordnance Enterprises, and is designed to be lighter and have less recoil than other 120mm systems so that it would fit and operate properly in the confines of the CV-90. it's a high-pressure gun system and fires all NATO standard tank ammo. Weight is pinned around 26 Tonnes, but I can't find any info on armour composition or thickness.

Hope that helps.
pat
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Offline Tango2Bravo

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2005, 12:12:11 »
Pat,

No worries.  From what I can glean from open source it is indeed a Swiss 120mm smoothbore gun that will go on the CV90120-T.  I cannot find a specific list of ammunition types but it should be able to fire both HEAT and APFSDS.  That is still a lot of gun for a vehicle of that size and the gun appears to have a muzzlebrake to help out.  I imagine that the consequences of fire will be impressive.  I suppose that the tracks will help as well.  The only weight that I can find is for the CV9030 at 26 tons.  I assume that the weight will go up with the 120mm, but again I am a tanker and not a designer!  With a 120mm this AFV will certainly "punch above its weight."

Ammunition capacity and storage might be an issue.  The space in the rear-hull normally used for infantry would presumably be available for ammunition, however, and this might alleviate that problem.  I am assuming an auto-loader with all the vices and virtues that go with that.

The CV90120-T looks like it should have excellent firepower and mobility.  Protection would be my main concern, and this would be the trade-off to have a light tank that can be rapidly deployed.  Defensive aid suites are all well and good but I would rather put my faith in armour.

That being said it should be a good fit with a rapid deployment force and would certainly give teeth to a peacekeeping or stability force.  I'd like to see one in the field and one the range.  I was very impressed by the CV9030 and the CV90120-T looks like an excellent "light tank."

Cheers,

2B
Well-trained, older Panzer crews are the decisive factor for success...It is preferable to start off with fewer Panzers than to set out with young crews who lack combat experience.

 - Verbal report of Gen Balck 1943

Offline Infanteer

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2005, 12:16:21 »
Do you see the 70 ton behemoth still dominating the tank world for some time to come?
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline Lance Wiebe

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2005, 13:10:23 »
I can't see anything replacing the Leo2A5, M1A2SEP, Challenger II et al for at least the next twenty years.  Not in any numbers anyway.

At the risk of over simplifying matters, and not directed at the more knowledgable members of the board, I would like to remind some of the basics.  As we are all aware, one countries ideal tank is not the next countries ideal tank.  As well, tanks cannot be bought in isolation.  They are just one piece of the combined arms mosaic.  Without air support and compatable combined arms, the tanks will be just as dead whether or not they are 70 ton or 30 ton tanks.

Having said that, if we are to buy in to the CDS's vision, we still need a direct fire vehicle.  The MGS is certainly not the answer to that need, but I doubt that we will ever buy another tracked combat vehicle.  Instead, we will keep buying different versions of wheeled chassis, none compatable with the others, and keep steaming full speed ahead.  Too bad we don't know what direction to steam in.......
"It is the soldier, who salutes the flag, who served beneath the flag, whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protestor to burn the flag." - Charles M. Province

Offline PatrickO

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2005, 16:25:17 »
2bravo,

Based on one of my sources, the Encyclopedia of AFVs, rear hull space is still quite plentiful, even with a turret basket in the way.
from page 317:

"The 120mm/50 cal. gun is fitted with a vertical sliding breech magazine...thermal sleeve and fume extractor. In the hull rear is the same door as the CV90. Four infantry can be carried if necessary."

sounds like ammo storage won't be much of a problem  ;D . i read some more and i found that the hull and turret are apparently welded steel, but thickness is unknown.

"Hagglunds vehicle is responsible for the development of the hull, turret and systems integration. The tank has an all-welded steel hull .... [and] an all-welded steel turret"
Sharpe: "Give me your pick-lock, Cooper."
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Sharpe: "Trust me."
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Offline Tango2Bravo

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2005, 19:03:34 »
Infanteer,

I still see the 70 ton tank dominating the battlefield until lighter tanks can take the same level of punishment.  70 tons is probably the upward practical limit.  The M1A2 is not invulnerable, but it has proven the ability to take a hit and stay in the fight.  As a tanker I will err on the side of protection! ;) 

Lance,

I was hoping that you were reading.  What are your thoughts on having a 120mm cannon on a 26 - 30 ton vehicle?

Pat,

Does your source mention the turret crew size and/or whether it has an auto-loader?

Cheers,

2B
Well-trained, older Panzer crews are the decisive factor for success...It is preferable to start off with fewer Panzers than to set out with young crews who lack combat experience.

 - Verbal report of Gen Balck 1943

Offline TCBF

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2005, 19:19:37 »
If the MGS does not go into production, I would not be surprised if the US goes with the XM8 AGS. If they do, do we follow, or look at the competition, including Hagglunds?

Well, not really my cup of tea, that question.

But, since we don't seem to be kicking the roadwheels of any 70 tom behemoths lately..two points.

1. Spring 78, D Sqn 8CH(PL) leaves their Lynx to do an exchange with   3/10 Cav in Ft. Hood on M60A1.   In a few short weeks, the Lynx crewmen, using the skills of their officer and NCO CCs who had Centurian time, were firing tank table VIII.   Similar exchanges also took place.   A lot of Cdn crewmen had their first tank times on an M60A1.

2. Fall 1990.   While 4CMBG gets ready to get ready in case they have to take the long tank train (a boat) to Saudi Arabia , plans are made to send the LdSH(RC) from Calgary to the USA, to train as an M1A1 bn, using their Cougar, Lynx, and Centurian/Leopard C1 trained officer and NCO CCs.   This did not happen, as the govt anounced a "No Go" just before the training plan was OK'd.

So, even if we don't buy them, that doesn't mean we can't crew them. ;D

Tom

« Last Edit: March 16, 2005, 21:11:22 by TCBF »
"Disarming the Canadian public is part of the new humanitarian social agenda."   - Foreign Affairs Minister Lloyd Axeworthy at a Gun Control conference in Oslo, Norway in 1998.


"I didn’t feel that it was an act of violence; you know, I felt that it was an act of liberation, that’s how I felt you know." - Ann Hansen, Canadian 'Urban Guerrilla'(one of the "Squamish Five")

Offline Lance Wiebe

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2005, 19:37:42 »
I would love to be part of a trials group on the CV-90/120.  Alas, that time is behind me.

It is certainly feasable to mount a 120 on a thirty tonne chassis, as long as a long recoil system is incorporated, and an effective muzzle brake.

I saw the effectiveness of a good muzzle brake in action, and it is simply awesome.  Cut recoil energy by 30%, with no loss in performance of the round.  It did, however, have some side effects, like sending the muzzle blast at a rear-ward direction at an angle of 60 degrees from the barrel.  Pity the poor infanteer standing twenty meters to one side, ten meters behind the trunnions.

I don't quite follow the argument of retaining the 105 over the 120 for the future direct fire vehicle.  How many of our NATO allies use 105?  Our Leopard C2's can be upgunned to 120 quite easily, in fact we could have done that during the C2 project.  That was deemed to be "out of scope" however,...too bad.  We never got the 120, or the turret electric drive, although both were available.  Short sightedness prevailed, as always.......
"It is the soldier, who salutes the flag, who served beneath the flag, whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protestor to burn the flag." - Charles M. Province

Offline PatrickO

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2005, 20:55:43 »
2Bravo, the book does indeed talk about crew size. it's a conventional layout, with a 3 man turret crew (gunner/cmdr on the right, loader on the left). the commander and the gunner have their own roof hatches too. I found a diagram showing ammo stowage too:



As far as the loading system is concerned, it mentions

"The tank has an antiaircraft  sighting system and a semi-automatic loading system."

cheers,
pat
Sharpe: "Give me your pick-lock, Cooper."
Cooper: "Will I get it back, sir?"
Sharpe: "Trust me."
Cooper: "It's very hard to trust a man who wants a pick-lock, sir."

Offline PatrickO

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2005, 21:04:37 »
oh, just to add on to that, the Ruag Land systems website gives the following figures for ammo storage:

12 in the bustle, 33 in the chassis.

www.ruaglandsystems.com/.../ aw01/ctg/default.htm
Sharpe: "Give me your pick-lock, Cooper."
Cooper: "Will I get it back, sir?"
Sharpe: "Trust me."
Cooper: "It's very hard to trust a man who wants a pick-lock, sir."

Offline Tango2Bravo

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Re: The CV90 Fan Page
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2005, 21:13:23 »
Lance,

I had heard that the modified 105mm that was tested for the Leopard required the crew to be hatches down due to the muzzle brake.   Is this the muzzle brake that you are referring to?

Pat,

Good diagram.  I like the rather conventional turret layout.

2B
Well-trained, older Panzer crews are the decisive factor for success...It is preferable to start off with fewer Panzers than to set out with young crews who lack combat experience.

 - Verbal report of Gen Balck 1943