Author Topic: Dress and Deportment  (Read 39881 times)

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Offline TCBF

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Dress and Deportment
« on: March 30, 2005, 15:22:15 »
" Yes, it looks like crap, but it's the best winter jacket we've got and a darn sight less socially insulting that wearing a greatcoat with a kilt.  You look like a bloody flasher!"

Only if you take your shoes off.  ;D

But, from 7 Jan 1971 until we got issued "CF Greens" in the Fall of 1973, I wore Battledress and a kilt, with a greatcoat made in 1950.  Worked fine.  I sure wish I'd kept the greatcoat.   Nothing wrong with the new one, I like it better than the Swinex Parka I bought in Pet, back in 1977, for $39.95.

As for OG 107 Goretex vs CADPAT.  I was posted ERE (IR) last summer, and shortly after the Regt got the CADPAT Jackets and stuff.  I still wear green heavy clothing with my CADPAT.  Half of Wainwright is in the same boat. 

Tom


"Disarming the Canadian public is part of the new humanitarian social agenda."   - Foreign Affairs Minister Lloyd Axeworthy at a Gun Control conference in Oslo, Norway in 1998.


"I didn’t feel that it was an act of violence; you know, I felt that it was an act of liberation, that’s how I felt you know." - Ann Hansen, Canadian 'Urban Guerrilla'(one of the "Squamish Five")

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2005, 17:42:12 »
In the now-locked "Prohibited Boots" thread, Meridian asked:

"I wondered about that Haggis because I remember reading an NCR joining instructions type sheet that clearly outlined that DEU's were the Dress of the day every day for WOs & O's.

But I still see Officers in CADPATall the time... (although it is moreso junior NCMs)... does the instruction not apply to Reserve officers on posting or something of that nature (im talking daytime here, not Evenings while people are on their way to the armoury)"

Meridian:

The answer is that this order only applies to NCR units under command of CFSU (Ottawa).  It does not apply to units of 33 CBG, the Communication Reserve or Naval Reserve.  They are under command of thier respective Enviornmental Commanders (LFA/LFCA for 33 CBG for example).  If an officer or WO is on an attach posting (either Reg F or Reserve) to an NCR unit, s/he should be wearing DEU on a daily basis.  Exceptions are made, but they are rare.

TCBF:

Until we get everyone into CADPAT and ICE  and all the other CTS goodies, we're going to look like a 3rd world horde in field kit.

NDHQ, like any multi service HQ, looks like a walking garage sale with its plethora of uniforms and orders of dress.  Ever been to the Pentagon?  Same thing... except fitter  ;D
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Offline TCBF

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2005, 17:54:24 »
Sounds like Kandahar. All of the "Rakasans"in the 101st (including the Canadians) dressed alike, mostly, but all of the 'operators' were models in a gigantic military fashion show.  There were guys whose probably only  purpose in life was to burn cut down 45 gal drums half filled with JP8 and excrement, and they dressed like they worked for the CIA.

Tom
"Disarming the Canadian public is part of the new humanitarian social agenda."   - Foreign Affairs Minister Lloyd Axeworthy at a Gun Control conference in Oslo, Norway in 1998.


"I didn’t feel that it was an act of violence; you know, I felt that it was an act of liberation, that’s how I felt you know." - Ann Hansen, Canadian 'Urban Guerrilla'(one of the "Squamish Five")

Offline Meridian

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2005, 09:59:19 »
  Ever been to the Pentagon?   Same thing... except fitter   ;D


Oh God yes. I haven't been to the Pentagon, but I have been to NDHQ, and see the officers all over the place. (If you've ever been to ottawa on a weekday, its hard to avoid). I do not understand why a posting to the "Puzzle Palace" equates to "I have a guaranteed med chit precluding me from ever working out"

To be honest, the worst case of this was CIC; when I was at CFSJ in St-Jean, we had officers doing the MTAP (I think thats the acronym) language courses from all over NATO and eastern europe.  We'd have CIC training weekends where the CIC's would come and do seminars and the like (I dont really know what), and the foreign officers would just look appalled at all these canadian uniformed people who were overweight and looking like bags of -----.   

We had to explain to these officers that indeed the CIC were not Regular or even Reserve force personnel, and basically, CIC got explained as being babysitters of kids in uniforms (whether this was a correct description or not, when you are pissed off about being lumped in with a bunch of fattys, you say anything).


This all led to the question of why CIC doesnt have its own DISTINCTIVE uniforms.

Offline Jason Bourne

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2005, 15:20:45 »
Strange that CIC's would come up....I was told not to salute them around the base when I did see one...

Jason
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Offline N. McKay

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2005, 15:23:28 »
We had to explain to these officers that indeed the CIC were not Regular or even Reserve force personnel, and basically, CIC got explained as being babysitters of kids in uniforms (whether this was a correct description or not, when you are pissed off about being lumped in with a bunch of fattys, you say anything).

This all led to the question of why CIC doesnt have its own DISTINCTIVE uniforms.

Almost as if a variation on Godwin's Law, it seems as though nearly every thread on Army.ca sooner or later devolves into someone complaining about the CIC. ;)

To address two points you've raised:

CIC officers are reserve force personnel.   Everyone in the CF is either in the regular force or the reserve force (there being no special force in place at the moment).

Why no distinctive uniforms?   I would suggest simply that there's no compelling reason to have them, and if there were, it would have to be balanced against the enormous cost of designing, producing, stocking, and distributing them.   How would we justify such an expenditure?

Offline N. McKay

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2005, 15:24:55 »
Strange that CIC's would come up....I was told not to salute them around the base when I did see one...

Jason

Bad advice, I'm afraid -- you salute all commissioned officers of higher rank than yourself, regardless of branch or element.

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2005, 15:38:37 »
Bad advice, I'm afraid -- you salute all commissioned officers of higher rank than yourself, regardless of branch or element.

Quite true.

An officer is an officer and, as holders of the Queen's Commission, they are all entitled to a salute, whether we like it or not.  If it makes you feel better, just remember that you are paying compliments to the Commission, not the holder. ;D
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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2005, 19:19:34 »
Ah, actually you are paying compliments to the trust and confidence shown in the officer by the Monarch.

....who grants a Commission to said officer as a mark of that trust and confidence.  Semantics aside, you are not saluting the holder.
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Offline TCBF

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2005, 01:31:50 »
I salute the holder.  I just actually begin to enjoy it when they truly deserve it, as - in all fairness - most do.

Tom
"Disarming the Canadian public is part of the new humanitarian social agenda."   - Foreign Affairs Minister Lloyd Axeworthy at a Gun Control conference in Oslo, Norway in 1998.


"I didn’t feel that it was an act of violence; you know, I felt that it was an act of liberation, that’s how I felt you know." - Ann Hansen, Canadian 'Urban Guerrilla'(one of the "Squamish Five")

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2005, 07:00:31 »
Tom:

Agreed.  Some don't.... most do.  In those cases it makes me feel a bit better to know, deep down, that I'm paying my compliment to the Monarch.  Freedom of choice is a wonderful thing particularly when no one knows you've chosen.
Train like your life depends on it.  Some day, it may.

Offline Meridian

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2005, 11:19:58 »
Almost as if a variation on Godwin's Law, it seems as though nearly every thread on Army.ca sooner or later devolves into someone complaining about the CIC. ;)

To address two points you've raised:

CIC officers are reserve force personnel.   Everyone in the CF is either in the regular force or the reserve force (there being no special force in place at the moment).

Why no distinctive uniforms?   I would suggest simply that there's no compelling reason to have them, and if there were, it would have to be balanced against the enormous cost of designing, producing, stocking, and distributing them.   How would we justify such an expenditure?

Lt: I knew someone would bring up the "we are part of the reserves" argument. But in a practical discussion with foreign service "fighting" personnel, trying to explain why a certain group of Canadian Military personnel were significantly overweight, you generally try and segement the groups. CIC AFAIK does not have the same physical fitness standards as the forces (and lets not get even started on the average standards amongst the forces as a whole).

The worse point was that obviously all these pers were officers... which is even more interesting to explain to a WO from Estonia, or a SGT from Russia.

They brought up the idea of seperate uniforms, noting that a cap badge is minimal identification wise, and few CIC actually wear "CIC" rank flaps.  The argument here was that CIC officers are, in fact, quite different in their roles and responsabilities as compared to Regular and Reserve "nonCIC" pers... 

I agree that there is validity to the financial implication argument, as well the argument that they are representing their individual branches of service.

Personally I guess my preference would be to see CIC having its own branch.

Offline N. McKay

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2005, 11:50:26 »
Personally I guess my preference would be to see CIC having its own branch.

Then this is your lucky day: the CIC is in fact a branch.  That's why you usually see "CIC" on the army types' slip-ons (but not on naval or air force pers. because neither element wears its branch in that way -- all branches wear the generic "Canada" slip-ons).

Offline Meridian

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2005, 12:05:46 »
Ok... Its own component then.

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2005, 07:10:59 »
I guess what I don't understand is why the CIC officers don't wear the same uniforms as the cadets.  That way they would be more like all other officers in all other parts of the CF.  Except for rank badges and odd bits of braid there's not too much difference between the uniforms worn by, say, Gen Hillier and a trooper in the RCD or between Adm Buck and the petty officer clerk who works in the outer office.  Why do CIC officers wear uniforms which differ, quite markedly, from those worn by cadets?
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Offline Jungle

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2005, 07:34:42 »
I agree with Mr Campbell. A change of uniform, and of status, should be envisaged. There are no advantages in having the CIC as part of the CF.
Now regarding the fatties, it is not only a problem in the CIC; it is a problem throughout the CF. Some people invariably go see the doctor to get issued a chit at the first sign of the CF EXPRES. A lot of people in the CofC simply ignore the person and do not bother to follow up. People avoiding the CF EXPRES should be booked on a new test ASAP after the excuse period expires. If they are excused again, then they should be put on a temp med category. Should this carry on, they should be put on a permanent med cat and released.
If we were more serious about our standards, we would have less problems.
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Offline Thucydides

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2005, 07:40:28 »
Of course, if no uniforms were made or issues with large waist bands, then a lot of the fitness problems would also be identified  ;D
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Jungle

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2005, 07:52:29 »
... then issue ALL fatties with maternity uniforms.  >:D
"I am a Canadian, free to speak without fear, free to worship in my own way, free to stand for what I think right, free to oppose what I believe wrong, or free to choose those who shall govern my country. This heritage of freedom I pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind."
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Offline pbi

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2005, 08:42:06 »
Quote
If we were more serious about our standards, we would have less problems.

This is the problem, right here. We're not always willing to do the work to make these people play the game. If they try to get out of BFT or Expres by getting a chit, then make sure you a) examine the chit to see that they really have one; and b) what other types of physical exercise they can still do. Then, wait out the duration of their chit and test them again. If another chit appears, get them assessed for their medical fitness to stay in the forces. If they fail the test, start the remedial program. If they fail the remedial program, its either a medical problem (see above) or its a performance problem in which case you start the RW/C&P route as fitness is a valid requirement of the service. The problems with this are a) it takes time and energy; b) the slackers will start squeaking about harassment and grievances, which tends to scare us away (it shouldn't, if we're right...); or c) they can point to any other number of slobs (usually senior to them in rank) and ask "what are you going to do about him?"

We are our own worst enemies. To me, greater self pride and less welfare mentality amongst some people in the military would also reduce the numbers of unfit and grossly overweight people we have.

Cheers.
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Offline Meridian

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2005, 11:18:34 »
Not to keep harping on CIC, but are they exempt from EXPRES and BFT?

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2005, 16:47:31 »
I live in Ottawa, and, well, seems like some people are getting a little to comfortable with their officer jobs. A fit military is a confident military. I don't understand the lack of motivation to do PT with some people, being fit feels good.

I work in Ottawa.  In many cases, finding the time to do PT has little to do with motivation and more to do with workload and the NDHQ lifestyle.

Shortly after arriving at NDHQ, I started taking time to do PT (and I still do).  Every afternoon, I would go for a run along the canal, followed by some body-weight strength training (my building didn't have a gym).  Almost immediately my civilian co-workers remarked that I was "leaving early".  I explained why I was "leaving early" and it was a hard sell to those who don't have a "Physical Fitness Test" box to tick off on their PER.

Secondly, the civilians who work at NDHQ (both real and "uniformed") don't really care much if the meeting they've just scheduled bumps PT off your calendar.  Very few civilian managers will factor in PT when doing thier time estimate for the task they've just assigned you.  And if that task or project is due tomorrow, taking time off for PT just doesn't fit the bill.

Addtionally, most who work at NDHQ have their work day extended by a commute.  If you carpool, as many do, your schedule is tied to that of four or five other folks who couldn't care less if you're fit as long as they don't miss "Everybody Loves Raymond".

In short, the NDHQ lifestyle can quickly turn even the most hardened field soldier into a uniformed public servant. (Ever see the standard of dress of the Canadian Coast Guard?)

All that being said, a major shift in attitude is required in the NCR.  Like it or not, fitness IS a big part of dress and deportment.  Simply ordering all the Warrant Officers and Officers into DEU to make the NCR "look more professional" is not going to fix the problem if the said Warrant Officer can't button his DEU tunic.

Dress and deportment is a combination of kit maintenance, fitness and personal pride.  A uniformed public servant doesn't have those any more than a professional soldier has dreadlocks in uniform.
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Offline beach_bum

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2005, 17:44:12 »
Shortly after arriving at NDHQ, I started taking time to do PT (and I still do).   Every afternoon, I would go for a run along the canal, followed by some body-weight strength training (my building didn't have a gym).   Almost immediately my civilian co-workers remarked that I was "leaving early".   I explained why I was "leaving early" and it was a hard sell to those who don't have a "Physical Fitness Test" box to tick off on their PER.

Secondly, the civilians who work at NDHQ (both real and "uniformed") don't really care much if the meeting they've just scheduled bumps PT off your calendar.   Very few civilian managers will factor in PT when doing thietheire estimate for the task they've just assigned you.   And if that task or project is due tomorrow, taking time off for PT just doesn't fit the bill.


It's not just a problem at NDHQ, it's really a forces wide problem.  I have had civilian DND employees complain bitterly about us taking PT, despite the fact that they are not assessed on it.  When I brought up the point to them that if they wanted PT so much, perhaps they should join, I got a "talking to".   :o Also, I can't count the number of times I had heard "PT is cancelled until further notice" due to heavy work loads and dead lines.  Well, lets be honest...we always have heavy work loads and dead lines.  There have been many instances where I have been on my way out to do PT (at the scheduled time) when I have been hauled aside and given the speech on how much work there is, and can I really afford to go on PT.  Or, the "it must be nice" in that snarky tone, trying to make you feel guilty!    ::)  It almost seems that a lot of people think that PT is a luxury that should be handed out as a treat.  It should be mandatory every day.  If someone has a legitimate chit for an injury, there are probably some things that person can still do until they are fit again.
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Offline Gunner

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2005, 18:18:20 »
The express test is a joke and the BFT is usually poorly monitored to enforce acceptible standards.  Has anyone ever seen an extremely large man or women carry someone of similar weight 100 meters?  Probably not, as they always pick up the 100 lb soaking wet clerk to do it.

I've always been a proponent of mandatory PT for the entire army as, unfortunately, it seems the first thing thrown out when the training schedule gets compressed is PT.  What's stopping the army from instituting a mandatory 0730 - 0830 hrs PT period for all members?  Showers between 0830 and 0900 hrs, and start work at 0900 hrs?  Although the BMI program was poorly introduce and caused no end of heartache for the army, at least it motivated some of us to get into the gyms, etc and deflate the psi on your DEU buttons.   

There would be alot less excuses if it was mandatory.... 
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Offline Thucydides

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2005, 19:41:43 »
A bit of a tie in from other threads, but perhaps "fitness" would be an easier sell if it was done in the form of martial arts training.

There are various benifits in terms of focus and mental ability, as well as strength, flexibility and coordination improvements (this is true regardless of the art being used for training). People will even think of themselves as "warriors", despite the fact that most martial arts are best suited for the dojo (before you start flaming, put on your FFO, body armour and tac vest; THEN try to do your art).

Plenty of service members are qualified as high ranking menbers of varous martial art forms, so a pool of in house instructors is already available.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

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Re: Dress and Deportment
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2005, 19:49:08 »
As I said, a fundamental PART of dress and deportment is fitness.  It is not a cure all.  A super-fit soldier who doesn't press his DEU or get a haircut is still a shytebag and a poor example to his subordinates and the public.

You wanna look like a pro in uniform?  Take pride in yourself.  Maintain your kit.  Maintain yourself so you fit in your kit.
Train like your life depends on it.  Some day, it may.