Author Topic: Recce  (Read 7830 times)

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brad_dennis

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Recce
« on: December 24, 2001, 06:55:00 »
So much good advise last time I‘ll try again. Concerning recce. I‘ll likely find this out eventually, but kinda curious now. Here are some questions.

1) In Reg Force is a officer position in recce difficult to achieve, ie is it a coveted position?
2) How many recce..."units" would there be say in RCR? How many men would that be?
3) What special qualities would an one need to possess to achieve a position as a recce officer?
4) Why is it called recce instead of recon?
5) Is a recce position tougher physically than other positions same question applies for mental/smarts
thanks
BD

Offline portcullisguy

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Re: Recce
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2001, 07:14:00 »
Quote
Originally posted by brad_dennis:
[qb]So much good advise last time I‘ll try again. Concerning recce. I‘ll likely find this out eventually, but kinda curious now. Here are some questions.

4) Why is it called recce instead of recon?[/qb]

"Recon" is an Americanism, made popular by movies (again, American ones).  "Recce" is the usual vernacular used by Britain and Canada.  At least, this was the explanation given to me several years ago by a friend in the CF.

As to your other questions, I am not qualified to answer, so I‘ll defer...
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Offline Jungle

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Re: Recce
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2001, 07:36:00 »
1) In Reg Force is a officer position in recce difficult to achieve, ie is it a coveted position?
2) How many recce..."units" would there be say in RCR? How many men would that be?
3) What special qualities would an one need to possess to achieve a position as a recce officer?
4) Why is it called recce instead of recon?
5) Is a recce position tougher physically than other positions same question applies for mental/smarts

BD,
I take it you are talking about Infantry Recce...
1) Yes It is a coveted position, and in most cases the Pl cmder is Advanced Recce qual.
2) There is one Recce Pl in each Infantry Battalion. Pl strength depends on role ie: mech or light Inf.
3) To be a good member of recce, you need to have excellent knowledge of all Infantry skills, be able to remain calm in the most tense situations, and have good judgement.
4) See above post...
5) Yes, again depending on role. Light recce is very difficult physically, thus very demanding mentally.
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brad_dennis

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Re: Recce
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2001, 10:06:00 »
"BD,
I take it you are talking about Infantry Recce..."

yes you are correct and thanks

Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Recce
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2001, 16:35:00 »
>3) What special qualities would an one need to possess to achieve a position as a recce officer?

I suppose the recce platoon commander (and also the platoon NCOs) should strive to be among the most tactically gifted and educated members of the battalion at their respective rank levels, able to think at the company and even battalion level, to read ground exceptionally well, and to understand whatever enemy is opposed.  Why?  Because the information they provide will shape decisions in battle.  Consider what must happen when a company commander arrives at the OP with orders to attack in 30 minutes, wanting to quickly establish the best locations for supporting fire, axes of approach, etc.
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brad_dennis

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Re: Recce
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2001, 03:01:00 »
"  
Quote
to read ground exceptionally well"


I‘m curious, I will assume that this above skill is a product of experiance, but I wonder if it is also one of those things that you either have a natural talent for or you don‘t. Comments? I had heard once that a friend of a friend was a good officer as far as leadeship and general smarts, but couldn‘t, as much as he valiantly tried, orientate himself out of a paper bag.

Also for those of you who can answer, please see my question about phase 2-4 training below in the INFANTRY section of this forum.

thanks
bd

Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Recce
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2001, 08:34:00 »
Orienteering , map and compass, dead reckonning, etc are all skills that can be learned by almost anybody. That said, how well that skill set develops after initial exposure, is up to the  individual, trg resourses and willingness to take things a step further all the time by challenging themselve to increasingly more difficult terrain. Being able to think spatially is a major bonus. When you can look at a topo map, take in all the info, then in your mind‘s eye, envision a 3d model of what‘s ahead with all the pitfalls and advantages, your 3/4 the way home. One of the biggest problems we have in armoured recce is teaching young crew commanders to retain and hone all the same skills, but be able to do it at 60 miles per hour along with working the radio, controlling the crew, watching your other car, finding positions of obs, yada yada, as opposed to doing it as your walking on the ground. Don‘t fall into the habit of depending on your GPS, it‘s a great piece of kit, but batteries go dead, things get lost, signals can get scrambled. Practice, practice, practice is about all I can say.
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towhey

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Re: Recce
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2001, 12:58:00 »
Quote
Originally posted by Brad Sallows:
I suppose the recce platoon commander .... be able to think at the company and even battalion level... [/QB]

Exactly right.  An infantry battalion recce platoon works at the battalion level, sometimes higher.  The recce pl comd must understand the battalion commander‘s intent, and be able to think through how the CO will want to fight the ground.  In the offence, he/she will identify enemy location, strength, readiness, capabilities and find the best locations for battalion assembly areas, attack positions, lines of departure, objectives, etc.

On the advance, in a mechanized formation, battalion recce will often work hand-in-glove with battalion anti-armour dets -- often on the flanks of the battalion to screen enemy counter-attacks, maintain contact with flanking friendlies and provide close recce and support to the anti-armour vehicles who are vulnerable to dismounted enemy infantry.

In the defence, the recce platoon commander will normally work with the anti-armour platoon commander to develop the battlaion surveillance and target aquisition plan, siting battalion OPs, planning standing patrols, working with the IO to create a recce plan and tasks for company level recce patrols.

All in all, a great job for a senior infantry subaltern.  Normally a high-potential junior Captain who has considerable experience as a platoon commander, possibly as a company 2IC and as a battalion staff officer.


And my own question:  Why would the Americans call it "recon" instead of "recce" ????   :)  
Must be lack of imagination, eh?

Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Recce
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2001, 14:57:00 »
Orienteering and reading ground are in my perception two entirely different skills.

Orienteering (navigation) by whatever means - map and compass, stars, other - is a straightforward set of skills which can be learned by anyone.  The main non-mechanical ability required is the self-confidence to trust your own ability to navigate.

Reading ground is as noted by recceguy - the ability to perceive the lay of ground from a map, and furthermore to readily evaluate either from a map or by being "on the ground" how the ground will dictate or affect tactics.  This can be learned, but there is also an element of giftedness or intuition.
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.

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Despair is a sin.

Offline Recce41

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Re: Recce
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2001, 20:01:00 »
well
  The best Recce Soldiers are Armour. We have the nack to read a map at hih speeds. Most Inf. can‘t.  That is why inf follow the tanks. That is also why DIV/BGE Recce is Armour in every Army.

   Sgt J.  CD, CDS com  :tank:
Canadian Decoration,Chief of Defence Staff Commandation.Bold and Swift/Airborne

Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Recce
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2001, 23:25:00 »
Oh, oh!  :eek:
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Re: Recce
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2002, 10:11:00 »
Recce is a fundermental skill for the arty also. We have to know where are and where we are going at all times. As to reading a map on the fly, our FOOs also do this on a regular basis during mobile ops.

And to stir the pot a bit when the FOO gets a tap on his shoulder and an inquiry in just exactly were he is, it is just as likley to come from any cmbt arms guy as an infanteer.

 And I remember in the old days that during nav exs on leadership course, the map and compass was more than likely given to the herbie because of his familiarity and knowledge of them.
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JRMACDONALD

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Re: Recce
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2002, 10:12:00 »
Recce guy- nice bold statement(you must be Armour recce!!)  1. i take it you are familiar of the technique of "recce by death" (being an old TOW gnr, with "some "mech exp) 2. WHo are those little slow moving guys clearing the defiles , you love sooooo much! 3. two terms- FIBUA +tank hunting teams ( they always inspire such confidence in armoured guys)  :rocket:    :D

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Re: Recce
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2002, 17:21:00 »
JR,
Yeah, I‘m Armoured Recce. Some clarification seems to be in order. When we‘re out doing Div/Bde recce, we‘re normally waaaaaaay out in front, on our own. There is no Infantry support up where we are, we are on our own (well maybe some ELINT from satellite and sensors).  We operate 3 pers per veh X 2 vehs per patrol (3 patrols + Troop Leader = 1 Troop, 7 veh total). In a lot of cases depending on the type of recce being done, we operate only as a patrol, the rest of the troop being spread across the trace or on other missions. The slow moving guys clearing defiles for us are normally our own junior car commander and the observer from the Ptl Commander‘s veh. The rest of the patrol supports from a mounted pos‘n. If we need more help the Troop Leader can be called from his position on the trace for assistance. We still maintain support, by observation, and the one foot on the ground credo. In MUD recce we adopt pos‘ns of observation vice fire positions. If some one gets whacked, it‘s our job to see what it was, where it came from and how many, not get engaged in prolonged firefights. We shoot to extricate. We‘re lovers not fighters. This is why a Corporal crew commander in the armoured recce can get on the horn and call Golf for fire, without having to ask permission from higher and without having to go through 15 people for his fire mission. He talks straight to Golf. There‘s no one else out there to see what‘s happening but him. Per FIBUA and tank hunters. The same pucker factor applies to the dug in section of grunts that see a troop of Leopards break the wood line, 100 yards away, heading for their pos‘n, M72‘s and SAW‘s only attract unwanted attention. Armour does‘nt like FIBUA, infantry does‘nt like being bald arse in the open without armour, 6 of one, half dozen of the other. As far as tank hunters, stupid or brass balls, take your pick. The argument about being able to kill a tank is mute, it happens and is not to be denied, BUT you guys always think the tank is wandering aimlessley, on his own, putting himself in a perfect positon for your one shot (hopefull) kill. What do you do with the other three or more that are travelling with him. You may get him, but with our target aquision and drills, and our capability of zero/ zero engagements, by the time your identifying smoke, flash, heat, trunnion rock, etc settle down you‘ll have two sabots and a hesh in your rectum, and if you tangled with Alpha there may be a Willey Peter there for good measure. Screwing with a troop of tanks is not like firing at a paper mover on  the AT range. One tank can move into an area and do more damage in 15 minutes than a company of infantry can do in a day. And we never, ever, ever travel alone. All arms work together for a reason as a Combat Team, let‘s support each other rather than see who can urinate higher up the wall. I know your comments were in good fun, but there‘s alot of young fellas that treat the bad and misinformed stuff they read here as gospel and will carry it through their careers, to everyone‘s detriment.  ;)
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