Author Topic: "MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles" and "Replace base MP with RCMP"  (Read 222525 times)

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Offline paracowboy

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Re: MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2005, 18:59:15 »
abso-freakin'-lutely.
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Offline KevinB

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Re: MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2005, 19:39:59 »
110%
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Offline CTD

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Re: MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2005, 19:41:40 »
here here

Offline SmartAssIrishMan

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Re: MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2005, 19:42:12 »
Outstanding idea, cost effective, reliable, and it would give alot of RCMP officers who may have been in the military before (such as Blackhorse7) a small way to maybe get back into what they miss so much since they got out. Send it up to Uncle Paul, it's a great idea!! Cheers! :cdn:
"Nothing is easy in war. Mistakes are always paid for in casualties and troops are quick to sense any blunder made by their commanders."     Dwight D. Eisenhower, General of the US Army

Offline Sigs Guy

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Re: MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2005, 19:54:24 »
How about this, lets get rid of the Military Police as it stands now, and then the RCMP can create a new division which is made to do police work on Military Bases. As well, if we are to lose the Military Police, what do we do with the 7th largest police force in Canada which is currently the MP's. While I want to get into law enforcement, if I enjoy the military I'd still like an avenue to to still be a part of the CF as a law enforcement member.
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2005, 19:59:55 »
As well, if we are to lose the Military Police, what do we do with the 7th largest police force in Canada which is currently the MP's.

Well, if all else fails, we are at war and 031 boots can be filled.

Other than that, if the main interest is policing as opposed to soldiering, than I'm sure the RCMP will be asking for new members if they were take on Military Policing roles.
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline redleafjumper

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Re: MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2005, 20:08:28 »
I can't agree with this one.  The RCMP is a civil police force, it has as its role the maintenance of law an order in civil society.  It is primarily tasked with enforcement of the criminal code as well as provincial statutes and even municipal bylaws.  The job of a civil police officer is a relatively "peaceful" one.  It can be dangerous work, but it in no way compares to the sort of commitment and responsibility required of a military police officer.  For my tastes, such a suggestion would give one agency far too much jurisdiction and responsibility for enforcement in a very complex area. 
Certainly in history one could point to the use of volunteers from the RCMP as military police in wartime, but that is quite different from having the force as a whole serve as the agent of the provost marshall.  Yes, RCMP have served on various international NATO, humanitarian and UN missions; that's a good example of using RCMP specialists in their area of expertise - mainly training civil police forces and doing forensics at war crimes. Remember that military police have responsibility for law enforcement and police work in military environments and potentially in war. 

Far from gaining the support of the civil population, I would see such a plan as a clear step towards what is popularly called a police state.  The RCMP is already very much a paramilitary police force with some military aspects to its history.  Having the RCMP serve as military police when the roles required are in my opinion, quite different, would be a terrible mistake.  No thanks.


Redleafjumper

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Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

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Re: MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2005, 20:13:03 »
In France, the Military Police are the police for the entire country.

Cheers,

Wes
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Offline redleafjumper

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Re: MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2005, 20:19:59 »
I was asked once by an American what the difference was between our police and theirs.  I simplified it like this:
In the United States you have the FBI which handles matters of federal jurisdiction, you have State Police that handle State policing and interstate traffic.  You have city police that handle municipal matters and you elect Sheriffs to be the senior police officials in counties.  Each of those police agencies has a clearly defined jurisdiction with the clear aim of protecting the rights of the citizenry.  When you are dealing with an RCMP officer you are speaking to a police officer with potential and real jurisdiction in all those areas. 

For my rights, I would rather not see that extensive jurisdiction extended further.
Redleafjumper

"After all, courage of the lonely sort is surely the most glorious thing that we can hope to witness, and whether it is displayed upon our side or upon the other, one feels the better for having witnessed it."  Major H. Hesketh-Pritchard, DSO, MC in Sniping in France 1914-18, p. 113.

Offline GO!!!

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Re: MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2005, 20:26:02 »
redleaf,

While I understand your concern in regards to the militarisation of Canadian law enforcement, I believe that you have misunderstood me.

I am proposing a police force totally seperate from the military and it's chain(s) of command. The RCMP, would, by all terms of the meaning, police the CF. It would not be subordinate to the CDS or any other military member. The only common ground would be the location.

If anything, I think that this would detract from the possibility of the formation of a police state by making the relations of the RCMP and CF adversarial in nature, not complementary.

If you did understand and I offered a needless clarification, I apologise.
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Offline redleafjumper

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Re: MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles
« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2005, 20:29:21 »
To add to Wes's comments, Wikepedia lists this explanation of the composition and roles of the French Police.  The French model is certainly not one that I would support for Canada.  In response to GO!!!, I believe that the military police has to be under the jurisdiction of the military and the civil police should be under the jurisdiction of the civil authority. 

Redleafjumper

Agencies

France has two national general-purpose law enforcement agencies:

    * the Police Nationale (civilian force; primary responsibility in urban areas; run under the Ministry of the Interior)
    * the Gendarmerie Nationale (military force; primary responsibility in rural areas and military installations; run under the Ministry of Defence and under operational control for most purposes under the Ministry of the Interior)

In addition, the national government has a Customs service (Douanes). Those three agencies are the only ones legally capable of making full arrests or serving search warrants.

Local governments (communes) may maintain a Police Municipale ("Municipal police") forces, which have very limited law enforcement powers outside of traffic issues and local ordinance enforcement. Rural communes may also form a garde champêtre or Police Rurale ("Rural Police"), which is responsible for limited local patrol and protecting the environment.
[edit]

Police vs Gendarmerie

The existence of two national police forces with similar goals and attributions, but somewhat different zones of activity, has at times created friction or competition between the two. Their merging has sometimes been suggested.

Since 1941, the division of the zones of activity between the Police and the Gendarmerie was that cities with more than 10,000 inhabitants were handled by the Police, and the remaining ones by the Gendarmerie. However, with the development of suburban dwellings, this had increasingly proved inadequate. Furthermore, the shifting of a town from a Police to a Gendarmerie zone was often controversial, because, typically, a gendarmerie units serves a wide area. A redistribution of competency was thus decided, and implemented between 2003 and 2005. Large conurbations will be handled by the Police in their entirety. Rural and periurban areas, as well as some smaller cities with populations ranging from 5,000 to 16,000, will be handled by the Gendarmerie.[1]

In addition, the Police and the Gendarmerie have specific zones of competency:

    * the Police handles questions regarding the entrance and stay of foreigners (border police);
    * the Gendarmerie handles all matters regarding the military, as well as police at sea, the security of airports, and the security of certain public buildings (Republican Guard).

Local Police or Gendarmerie precincts may not be capable of conducting complex investigations. For this reason, both the Police and the Gendarmerie maintain regional services dedicated to criminal investigations (police judiciaire); these are known as "regional services of judiciary police" in the Police, "research sections" in the Gendarmerie. In addition, both the Police and the Gendarmerie maintain laboratories dedicated to forensics. Most criminal enquiries are conducted by the Police. Justice may choose either service; sometimes, if the judiciary is disappointed by the results or the methods of one service, it may give the enquiry to the other service.

The National Police also features some central offices with national jurisdiction, charged with specific missions, such as the national anti-terrorist division.

Both the Police and the Gendarmerie have SWAT teams. The Gendarmerie has the foremost and best-known, the GIGN; the Police has the RAID and the GIPN groups. The Gendarmerie also has armored and paratroops squadrons.

Both the Police and the Gendarmerie have riot control forces: the CRS for the Police, the gendarmerie mobile for the Gendarmerie (which are often mistaken for the former). They intervene throughout the country.

One justification for the maintenance of a military force handling matters of civilian police is that the military cannot unionize, contrary to civilian civil servants such as the Police, which may make management easier. The gendarmes found a workaround by forming associations of spouses of gendarmes.
Redleafjumper

"After all, courage of the lonely sort is surely the most glorious thing that we can hope to witness, and whether it is displayed upon our side or upon the other, one feels the better for having witnessed it."  Major H. Hesketh-Pritchard, DSO, MC in Sniping in France 1914-18, p. 113.

Offline Infanteer

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Re: MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles
« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2005, 20:29:29 »
Wes is right, and I don't see France rolling over into a Police State anytime soon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Gendarmerie

I think Italy may be the same with the Carabineri (sp?).

Each of those police agencies has a clearly defined jurisdiction with the clear aim of protecting the rights of the citizenry.   When you are dealing with an RCMP officer you are speaking to a police officer with potential and real jurisdiction in all those areas.  

For my rights, I would rather not see that extensive jurisdiction extended further.

The jurisdiction is within the Federal, Provincial, or Municipal government's hands - the RCMP is mandated to provide federal policing, while municipal and provincial services are contracted out if the relevent jurisdiction wishes to do so.

This shouldn't be an entirely huge thing - the military requires policing and it contracts the RCMP to do so.   The operational concerns you addressed can belong in the domain of a Provost Corps, where the M part of MP is emphasised.

I, frankly, have enough faith and respect for the RCMP to not hold any irrational fears of a police state because they are now to undertake enforcing law within the military (the same law that civilians are beholden to anyways).   Let the military side of the house cover the operational matters (PW's, discipline, rear area control and security) and the Police handle the Policing (criminal investigation, traffic and by-law enforcement, etc, etc).
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline paracowboy

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Re: MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles
« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2005, 20:32:04 »
The job of a civil police officer is a relatively "peaceful" one.   It can be dangerous work, but it in no way compares to the sort of commitment and responsibility required of a military police officer. 

you may want to re-word this. I find it insulting to LEOs. They make just as big, if not bigger, commitment to their duties as we in the military do. They put on a uniform every day, making themselves targets, every day. They are on Tour EVERY DAY. To insinuate that they do not have the same drive, motivation, and dedication we do is insulting. They are responsible for the safety of Canadians, and they see to it, daily. Sounds a lot like "commitment and responsibility" to me.
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles
« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2005, 20:35:02 »
In response to GO!!!, I believe that the military police has to be under the jurisdiction of the military and the civil police should be under the jurisdiction of the civil authority.

The military doesn't fall into neat compartments like this - as mentioned above, CF members are beholden to the CCC and other laws of Canada - why does the military need to use resources to do this "in-house" when another very competent organization makes it it's raison d'ete.   Most QR&O topics are enforced (as they should be) by the Chain-of-Command, while Major military infractions usually lapse over into Criminal Code charges (IIRC).

As well, considering that cooperation by different government branches (what the Aussies have term "Whole-of-Government" operations) is become the norm with asymmetric, 4th generation threats, I see nothing inappropriate with this approach
« Last Edit: July 08, 2005, 20:37:38 by Infanteer »
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Offline KevinB

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Re: MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles
« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2005, 20:36:41 »
Ditto to Paracowboy.   LEO's are truly warriors in a never ending war.

 I must admit I have less than a modium of respect of the MP's   countless offences go unpunished due to their incompetence.   I woudl rather see the RCMP take on the LE duties and have the MP's go back into the roles that Infanteer pointed out.

We could use them for Camp Secuit/Access Control duties too   ;)



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Offline Infanteer

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Re: MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles
« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2005, 20:38:28 »
I think the impartiality that the RCMP could bring to the CF is a big bonus as well (remember all that fracus coming out of the Somalia Investigation?).
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline Cyr

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Re: MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles
« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2005, 20:42:21 »
Oh wow. Are either of you an MP or do you know any MP's out there? The simple fact of the matter is that you will never see the RCMP replace the MP's because it comes down to simple manpower.. Te RCMP do not have enough to Police both cilival and Military law. There having enough trouoble replacing there aging police officer's right now.

Offline paracowboy

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Re: MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles
« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2005, 20:57:35 »
Oh wow. Are either of you an MP or do you know any MP's out there? The simple fact of the matter is that you will never see the RCMP replace the MP's because it comes down to simple manpower.. Te RCMP do not have enough to Police both cilival and Military law. There having enough trouoble replacing there aging police officer's right now.
judging by your profile, I'd say that either of them have more experience with, and knowledge of, MPs than you do. Your posts may draw more intelligent responses if they were spelled in one of the official languages, by the way.

Quote
I must admit I have less than a modium of respect of the MP's  countless offences go unpunished due to their incompetence
preach it, brother!
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Offline Blackhorse7

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Re: MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles
« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2005, 21:29:10 »
The RCMP is supposed to be a paramilitary Police force, but if someone could point out one aspect of the RCMP being paramilitary to me, I welcome them to.  I would love to be in the RCMP and be able to contirbute to the Military, but in a much larger fashion that will never happen.  IE going on ALL tours, acting as base RP's or regimental RP's.  Members of Army.ca get breaks on the speed violations, of course...  ;D
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Offline MCG

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Re: MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles
« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2005, 21:40:07 »
I for one think that we as a military would be better served by the RCMP, for a couple of reasons.

I believe that having our bases policed by the RCMP would have the benefit of excellent policing by an impartial organisation, with cost reductions for the CF to boot.
I see no reason why the Base MP detachments could not be replaced by RCMP detachments while the MPs exists solely in the Bdes & units of the field force and on board ships.

T[h]e RCMP do not have enough to Police both cilival and Military law.
The government can move paid positions from the CF to the RCMP.  It would be up to the RCMP to decide if they wanted to allow some MPs to transfer to the force with their positions.  If not, those MPs could be compulsorily forced to OT to another CF trade.

Offline paracowboy

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Re: MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles
« Reply #45 on: July 08, 2005, 21:49:55 »
It would be up to the RCMP to decide if they wanted to allow some MPs to transfer to the force with their positions.  
unlikely, as the RCMP (in fact no Police force in Canada, to my knowledge) does not recognize CF MP training as a legitimate LEO qualification. (What does that tell you?)
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Offline MCG

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Re: MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles
« Reply #46 on: July 08, 2005, 21:50:48 »
. . . would you see the NIS replaced by RCMP as well, or maybe a joint MP/RCMP organization?

Offline Britney Spears

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Re: MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles
« Reply #47 on: July 08, 2005, 21:53:22 »
I agree with the above suggestions. Let the RCs handle the police work in Canada so the MPs can focus on their POW human pyramid building operationally relevant skills, that's what they wear the relish for isn't it? Did any of you MPs join to write parking tickets in Lancaster Park?
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Re: MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles
« Reply #48 on: July 08, 2005, 22:21:02 »
Sorry guys - I don't buy it...

As much as we may or may not disdain the work of our MP's - they still provide a more visible presence than any RCMP detachment.  In Comox - I would be lucky to see one of the 5 squad cars about - I know that on base I would see one at least every hour.  IF we did away with the MP section on base - the local RCMP detachment would get 10 more officers and the service would still remain sparse at best.

Military Police can and will place charges in accordance with the CSD and the CCC - they don't call in the RCMP when they want to arrest someone - they are big enough to do this themselves.

As for doing away with the CSD and NDA - what crack are you smoking?  As a formed military body, we require these very specific rules in order to maintain cohesion and effectiveness in all phases of deployment.  What governs a troopie to follow his section commander's orders?  Canada's Criminal Code certainly doesn't contain any laws contrary to following a superiors orders - the NDA does.

It is unfortunate that you have witnessed crimes going un-punished in your neck of the woods - why do you continue to let it happen?  You're not going to kill your career if you produce a well thought-out memo/document to the local SAMPO - why ***** about it here as a anonymous member when you could be putting your typing skills to work...
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: MP's or Provost - An Idea on Roles
« Reply #49 on: July 08, 2005, 22:39:56 »
As much as we may or may not disdain the work of our MP's - they still provide a more visible presence than any RCMP detachment.

When I broached the subject on the MP forum, I made it clear that it was not a reform due to performance, but rather one to allow them to focus on operational duties.

Quote
In Comox - I would be lucky to see one of the 5 squad cars about - I know that on base I would see one at least every hour.   IF we did away with the MP section on base - the local RCMP detachment would get 10 more officers and the service would still remain sparse at best.

The MP Det would still be a formed unit on the base - the only thing to change would be the guys in it.  No positions would be "bartered off" to the local municipal detachment.  The CF would be paying the RCMP for Police Services, and would expect to get it in return.

Quote
Military Police can and will place charges in accordance with the CSD and the CCC - they don't call in the RCMP when they want to arrest someone - they are big enough to do this themselves.

Yes, but do we want to focus on this at the expense of other tasks?  Look at US MP's in Iraq - driving convoys, dealing with PW's, foot patrols, fighting and killing Hadji, and earning Silver Stars; I don't see Policing anywhere here.

Remember how you were skeptical of guys claiming a plane can do patrol/SAR/transport all in one?  I'd argue the same thing should apply here.

Quote
As for doing away with the CSD and NDA - what crack are you smoking?   As a formed military body, we require these very specific rules in order to maintain cohesion and effectiveness in all phases of deployment.   What governs a troopie to follow his section commander's orders?   Canada's Criminal Code certainly doesn't contain any laws contrary to following a superiors orders - the NDA does.

Whoh, hold on a minute - where did this come from.  Who said do away with the CSD and the NDA.  I said that it is, and should, be enforced through the C-of-C.  When bupkiss doesn't cut his hair, is insubordinate, gets an ND, or goes AWOL we don't call the MP's, the C-of-C deals with it (at least, this has been what I've seen with all these instances).

When serious infractions are committed, they usually fall back on the CCC.  IE: When you are given your ROE briefings, you are told that if you use excessive force and kill somebody, you'll be charged in a Criminal Court in Canada.  The RCMP do this everyday when they charge criminals - if we have a criminal problem within the CF, we can prosecute as we usually do, only the guy executing the law will have a different hat on - we are all on the same team.

Obviously, Military Policing requires some specialization, but since the RCMP handle a myriad of policing (traffic, maritime, criminal, etc, etc), I'm sure the extra skill set will not be too hard for them to graft onto their organization.
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr