Author Topic: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)  (Read 232520 times)

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Offline Capt. Happy

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #100 on: October 28, 2010, 16:12:41 »
That's not entirely true.  Soldiers not wearing beards is mostly a 20th century thing.  Beards were very common in the Victorian, including on operations in Africa and India.  Furthermore, if you look at photos of the special ops guys in the desert in WWII, you see a lot of beards.  That goes against the "beards are nasty in the desert" argument as well. 

Anyone who thinks that beards are uncomfortable under any conditions, obviously hasn't worn one for any length of time. 

The beards aren't worn by SOF guys for much more than a "blend in with the locals" type attitude - although, I must say, it's hard to blend in a bunch of obvious white guys in beards with some seriously tanned skinned local dudes  ;D

I wore a beard for two years, and believe me - wearing a beard in the desert is not all it's cracked up to be. As a matter of fact, I'll say IT SUCKED. Itchy, nasty feeling when coated in dust, etc. While some may not mind it in KAF where water is in abundance and there's always time for a shower, it's slightly different out moving around the boonies day to day not being able to shower with any regularity. I will agree though, that if there are ablution facilities in the camp you're in, there's no excuse not to use them - including shaving. A leaguer or COP is a different story altogether...

And once again, an MEL is quite different than a sick chit. Shitty attitude or not, if the OP has an MEL, it's not the same as a "lame" beard chit. It does seem to me there is a bit of an axe to grind - but then again, it sounds to me like the Pl 2IC is doing what Pl 2ICs are supposed to - beans, bullets, and discipline...


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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #101 on: October 28, 2010, 19:13:49 »
It does seem to me there is a bit of an axe to grind

The tone sure indicated that to me. The "power hungry" bit said alot by itself.....


Quote
- but then again, it sounds to me like the Pl 2IC is doing what Pl 2ICs are supposed to - beans, bullets, and discipline...

More and more, i see troops who interpret applying rules, questioning and "no" as power tripping and arse-covering on their NCO's part. It is sad and makes the job that much harder but its still going to get done......

Offline dogger1936

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #102 on: October 28, 2010, 20:55:47 »
I'm pretty well on the fence with this one as well. There was times I didnt shave for a month while I was there. Due to the fact we were told to use water for drinking to minimise it's use (i.e not so many clp's etc). When I came back to the FOB I shaved and showered and thanked god for water I could pour on my body. My hair was grown for 5 months strait as we didnt have a barber...and I wasnt going out of my way to cut it. ;D

On the other hand you go to KAF and the arty Mcpl is driving around in his CQ's truck with oakleys on and a beard with no other reason than to look SF. Make some cool facebook photo's and get mistaken as someone cool. That use to make us laugh/ piss us off. Then you see him clean shaven in Cyprus.

If you have a MEL I'm all for it. However our tour it was abused heavly by infanteer's. It was pretty easy to spot who was buddies in each companies. All gear ***** with beards.

Offline ArmyVern

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #103 on: October 28, 2010, 21:17:39 »
Oh for frig sakes.

The OP has stated that his chit is:
...
I'm an infantryman eith the medical O3 shaving restriction, y'know' 'can't shave unless ordered so for operationnal reasons'. So, I'd like to check and make sure I'm not being played by a power hungry, beard hater velcro wearing Platoon 2IC.
...


The OPs attitude in his first post was crap.
...
Canada has a pickle up it's bum, when it comes to looking like garrison soldiers on a parade in a war zone.
The people  most concerned about troops shaving and wearing boot bands or having their sleeve cuffs buttoned up aren't the ones being sent home with the flag over them.
...

There you have it ladies & gents; mystery solved. See the yellow bits??

 :brickwall:

If being in a War Zone is NOT operational when the hell are you all handing back in all that tax-free cash you made for being deployed on that Operation in that war zone?

PS: Your other comment is a nice play on emotions, but is 200% bullshit.

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Offline ArmyVern

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #104 on: October 28, 2010, 21:24:11 »
I'm pretty well on the fence with this one as well. There was times I didnt shave for a month while I was there. Due to the fact we were told to use water for drinking to minimise it's use (i.e not so many clp's etc). ...

Yep, and requiring conservation of life-essential water for drinking would constitute a bonified operational reason to issue a temp order NOT to shave.
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Offline xo31@711ret

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #105 on: October 28, 2010, 22:46:11 »
That's using common sense. Stop that!! You know that you're supposed to be a nut raving lunatic. 

Both Mike & me were retreads on the same TQ3 Jim; we worked a few years later in NB. He is a nut raving lunatic!    ;D

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #106 on: October 28, 2010, 22:49:25 »
That's using common sense. Stop that!! You know that you're supposed to be a nut raving lunatic. 

Both Mike & me were retreads on the same TQ3 Jim; we worked a few years later in NB. He is a nut raving lunatic!    ;D

Who's a nut raving lunatic?
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #107 on: October 28, 2010, 23:06:18 »

Enforcing a rule doesn't mean you agree with them, but we enforce them anyways.

I wish there were more leaders like you. We had a rule in my section, in that if you couldn't shower on a daily basis (out at a strong point, etc) you didn't have to shave. But once you came back to KAF/MSG, you had 24 hours to shower and shave. Each of the det comds made sure there was time for the members to go and do this. Never had a problem with it, even with coming back into KAF after 2 months into a pristine office space.


I felt bad for the guys who were back in KAF for 6 to 12 hours only and the first thing they had to do was shave.
Yea shaving on KAF was unavoidable but people put up SUCH a fight over it that it got clamped down on hardcore- to the point where it took precedence over calling home.

Long story short some people require the shave chits, LOTS of people abuse the shave chits.
The abuse leads to shaving-crusades.
Like after market chest rig crusades
Like Oakley crusades
Like patch crusades

In Bosnia we weren't allowed Oakleys, until someone pointed out the Coy 2IC wore them-then we were allowed because he said so.
We're told in Afghanistan that if we'll be "charged and sent home" if we wore (Unauthorized) patches. Long story short battle group guys (or other peons) were hounded and crucified for wearing patches yet I seen a LOT of headquarter types wearing them around.   The people who authorized patches were a closely guarded secret let me tell you..  ;D

I found that one of the biggest issues with beards was that it was a way for young guys to let everyone know they live out side the wire. It was like guys tried to use beards as a BTDT badge, right up there with guys standing in the Tim Hortons line making sure EVERYONE heard them talking about how much they hate KAF.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 23:20:18 by Grimaldus »
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Offline ModlrMike

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #108 on: October 28, 2010, 23:39:55 »
That's using common sense. Stop that!! You know that you're supposed to be a nut raving lunatic. 

He is a nut raving lunatic!    ;D

Thanks, Gerry.
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #109 on: October 28, 2010, 23:41:20 »
Thanks, Gerry.

Oh that would be you the nut raving lunatic....I thought he meant me......wait a minute....I am.......
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Offline Scott

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #110 on: October 29, 2010, 00:35:22 »
Seriously, not shaving when you might have to wear respiratory protective equipment?

This belongs in the dumbest things heard  thread.

For the record: I've been wearing SA/SCBA as well as half and full face respirators for the last twelve years. I wear this stuff on a daily basis and work, or supervise others, in toxic environments. I am also a fit tester meaning that I test to CSA standards for facial fit with various types of masks. Facial hair, under CSA (which might be moot here, I'll let an SME weigh in on that) is verboten.


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Offline Technoviking

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #111 on: October 29, 2010, 08:16:46 »
That's not entirely true.  Soldiers not wearing beards is mostly a 20th century thing.  Beards were very common in the Victorian, including on operations in Africa and India.  Furthermore, if you look at photos of the special ops guys in the desert in WWII, you see a lot of beards.  That goes against the "beards are nasty in the desert" argument as well. 
Your argument is less than logically valid.  If you look at pre-20th Century warfare, things were linear, and like gentlemen, we laid down our arms at night, washed, ate, etc.  Then we got back to the business again the next day.  More or less. 

Flash forward to the trenches of Flanders.  Lice, ticks, muck, scum, etc were the norm in many trenches in that ravished area.  Even under constant shellfire, our forefathers of the CEF shaved daily.  And they used puttees to keep their trousers "bloused".  They probably did so because it made sense to do so.
It's already been pointed out about a few special ops guys in the desert.  Here are some other desert soldiers:

Pretty austere looking to me.  And shaven.  But, they are all nazi scum, so, let's see who else was there:

Ah, the good guys.  Funny that, dressing professionally, clean shaven, and all.  And they still managed to beat up on the Germans.  Win/Win!


Just shut up and drag a razor across your face, shower or no shower.
So, there I was....

Offline mariomike

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #112 on: October 29, 2010, 11:08:11 »
Seriously, not shaving when you might have to wear respiratory protective equipment?

This belongs in the dumbest things heard  thread.

For the record: I've been wearing SA/SCBA as well as half and full face respirators for the last twelve years. I wear this stuff on a daily basis and work, or supervise others, in toxic environments. I am also a fit tester meaning that I test to CSA standards for facial fit with various types of masks. Facial hair, under CSA (which might be moot here, I'll let an SME weigh in on that) is verboten.

I have worn SCBA, as well as the N95 mask. Also an organic vapour mask. "The area where the N95 respirator seals to the face must be clean shaven."

Flash forward to the trenches of Flanders.  Lice, ticks, muck, scum, etc were the norm in many trenches in that ravished area.  Even under constant shellfire, our forefathers of the CEF shaved daily.

­­One reason for shaving during WWI is the fact that it was the first war to see chemical agents used on the battlefield. Soldiers had to use gas masks for the first time:
Gillette razors were mass produced and issued to soldiers for the first time.
I believe the treatment of facial burns and wounds is more effective if the victim is clean shaven.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 11:55:08 by mariomike »

Offline Big Red

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #113 on: October 29, 2010, 12:35:54 »


Can we compromise on shaving as long as we can wear shorts?  :P

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #114 on: October 29, 2010, 12:47:57 »
Can we compromise on shaving as long as we can wear shorts?  :P

I 'heard' there was cadpat ones in the system. I've been after my RQ to order me some for a year now. No luck. I can only surmise she's seen my legs :o

Maybe Vern can get me a stock number. ;)
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aesop081

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #115 on: October 29, 2010, 12:49:51 »
I 'heard' there was cadpat ones in the system.

They do exist and our technicians are issued with them. IIRC, they were authorized for wear on the ramp during RIMPAC.

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #116 on: October 29, 2010, 14:04:16 »
Clean shaven?

Be nice for no reason.

Offline bruce7711

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #117 on: October 29, 2010, 21:23:20 »
There really does seem to be a lot of childish banter in this thread with ref to "...but in KAF...". 

All you type that want to complain about how easy those in KAF have it compared to you, put in your OT to one of those trades.  Otherwise STFU.  You picked your trade, they picked theirs.

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #118 on: October 29, 2010, 22:34:26 »
All you type that want to complain about how easy those in KAF have it compared to you, put in your OT to one of those trades.  Otherwise STFU.  You picked your trade, they picked theirs.

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Offline Foxhound

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #119 on: October 30, 2010, 01:21:27 »
WRT the mask...

Back in my day, beards were only seen on the Pioneers (R.I.P.), certain wives, and on those poor souls who had such bad acne that shaving was nearly suicidal.  Even then, not all the Pioneers wore beards.  Unofficial SOP was that beard-wearers would tote some Vaseline® or similar and slather that all over said beard as soon as they heard "GAS GAS GAS!" or carried the mask pre-greased, to maintain the seal.

I guess that meant that if you wore a beard, you had a ready excuse for that tube of K-Y Jelly™ you had in your grenade/clean socks pouch.
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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #120 on: October 30, 2010, 07:57:04 »
WRT the mask...

Back in my day, beards were only seen on the Pioneers (R.I.P.), certain wives, and on those poor souls who had such bad acne that shaving was nearly suicidal.  Even then, not all the Pioneers wore beards.  Unofficial SOP was that beard-wearers would tote some Vaseline® or similar and slather that all over said beard as soon as they heard "GAS GAS GAS!" or carried the mask pre-greased, to maintain the seal.

I guess that meant that if you wore a beard, you had a ready excuse for that tube of K-Y Jelly™ you had in your grenade/clean socks pouch.

That would certainly make life easier for the chickens!  ;)


What? C'mon, you knew everyone was thinking the same thing ;D
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Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #121 on: October 30, 2010, 14:29:25 »
. . .  Unofficial SOP was that beard-wearers would tote some Vaseline® or similar and slather that all over said beard as soon as they heard "GAS GAS GAS!" or carried the mask pre-greased, to maintain the seal.

I guess that meant that if you wore a beard, you had a ready excuse for that tube of K-Y Jelly™[/] you had in your grenade/clean socks pouch.

Vaseline (petroleum jelly) would have been the preferred "jelly" to assist in achieving a mask seal for the bearded.  Being an oil based item it did not dry out as quickly as the other mentioned item, did not freeze as easily and being more viscous (i.e. thicker) provided a better seal.  Vaseline was also often used to lubricate the leather pump cup in Coleman lanterns/stoves and worked better than "K-Y" for the same reasons.  K-Y Jelly (or the brand more commonly bought by the medical folks - "Lubrafax") were water based lubricants that, initially, were developed and marketed for "medical" purposes of inserting things into persons with less (and more easily cleaned) residue - ok, there was also that problem of petroleum jelly lubricants deteriorating latex items.  Based on the proliferation of consumer advertising for "K-Y" products it would seem that anyone who is carrying a tube in his grenade pouch can claim all he wants that it is for NBCD but everyone knows that they shouldn't bend over in his presence.

Though it was (and probably still is) often used to achieve a seal when wearing a mask, it would also interfere with decomtamination drills.  You could "blot, bang and rub" all day long but as long as there was a residue of Vaseline there was an increased possibility that traces of chemical or biological agents remained attached to it.
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Offline Pusser

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #122 on: October 31, 2010, 20:45:35 »
Your argument is less than logically valid.  If you look at pre-20th Century warfare, things were linear, and like gentlemen, we laid down our arms at night, washed, ate, etc.  Then we got back to the business again the next day.  More or less. 

Flash forward to the trenches of Flanders.  Lice, ticks, muck, scum, etc were the norm in many trenches in that ravished area.  Even under constant shellfire, our forefathers of the CEF shaved daily.  And they used puttees to keep their trousers "bloused".  They probably did so because it made sense to do so.

Just shut up and drag a razor across your face, shower or no shower.

In what way is my argument not valid?  My point was that Victorian era soldiers often wore beards, despite operating in hot dirty climates.  That's a fact and there is plenty of evidence to back it up.  Ticks, lice, mud, scum etc existed long before the trenches of WWI.  This too is well-documented except for a lack of photographs.  Paintings from the era tended to leave out the filthy bits, but it doesn't mean they weren't there.  Even those photographs that did come from the later years tended to be staged and prepared, giving folks a chance to clean up a bit.  Shaving and hygiene have nothing to do with each other.

As for shaving when necessary, I have done it and will do so again I'm sure.  However, I'd like there to be a valid reason and hygiene simply isn't that. 
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #123 on: October 31, 2010, 20:58:05 »
Hygiene is not a reason to shave?
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Offline Technoviking

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #124 on: October 31, 2010, 21:02:52 »
I'd like there to be a valid reason and hygiene simply isn't that.
A luxury one is not always able to be afforded, especially when in a job with unlimited liability.  If the chain of command orders you to be clean shaven, that's good enough for me.


As for my previous, re-read what I posted.  Until WW1, most Victorian wars were "gentlemanly" more than not, and night was a time to rest, clean, etc.  A luxury not afforded.  But they also fired muskets and crap, unlike the lasers and hover tanks we have now.... ::)
So, there I was....