Author Topic: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)  (Read 232847 times)

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Offline ModlrMike

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #75 on: October 27, 2010, 13:49:49 »
Actually, he claims to have a "medical category".  If his claim is taken at face value (and his obvious 'attitude' is overlooked) then it is likely the documentation surrounding his medical condition is more extensive than simply a "chit" saying no shaving.  However, having a medical category (with the specific MEL he states) does not automatically grant him immunity from any future familiarity with a razor.  Whatever he does to avoid shaving is probably going to p*ss off his Pl 2IC, so if he wants to press the matter he should request that the order to shave be put in writing and copies placed in both his pers and medical records so that "he is covered medically in case there are any adverse reactions".  Now, if such a request were to trigger a re-evaluation of his medical condition, there is a possibility that the category could be made even more restrictive - to the point that he is undeployable, thus unemployable, thus releasable.

Exactly, he need's to be mindful of the "law of unintended consequences".
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #76 on: October 27, 2010, 14:06:02 »
Exactly, he need's to be mindful of the "law of unintended consequences".

Yes and acting like a prima donna doesn't help his case. I wonder...would he be so insubordinate to hs Pl 2IC face to face.....?
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Offline ModlrMike

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #77 on: October 27, 2010, 15:17:17 »
Yes and acting like a prima donna doesn't help his case. I wonder...would he be so insubordinate to hs Pl 2IC face to face.....?

Ah... the false sense of security blanket of internet anonymity.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #78 on: October 27, 2010, 16:46:13 »
The OPs attitude in his first post was crap.
People can (sometimes) get fed up with BS answers from leadership that are grounded in convenience and not fact.
There is next to zero NBC threat in Afghanistan so "shaving so you can get a seal on your mask" isn't that strong of a reason.
Wearing a beard in Afghanistan is narsty.
Shaving is only loosely enforced at the FOBs unless it changed.
Soldiers who abuse the chit system and get crap like shaving chits for the LCF and just because they can - ruin it for people with legitimate reasons. (Same way people abused the boot chit system)
Canada has a pickle up it's bum, when it comes to looking like garrison soldiers on a parade in a war zone.
The people  most concerned about troops shaving and wearing boot bands or having their sleeve cuffs buttoned up aren't the ones being sent home with the flag over them.
The OPs attitude set the tone for this thread and it wouldn't have ended any other way than a bun fight.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 17:50:32 by Grimaldus »
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #79 on: October 27, 2010, 16:50:33 »
The OPs attitude in his first post was crap.Canada has a pickle up it's bum, when it comes to looking like garrison soldiers on a parade in a war zone.
The people mos[i/] concerned about troops shaving and wearing boot bands or having their sleeve cuffs buttoned up aren't the ones being sent home with the flag over them.
The OPs attitude set the tone for this thread and it wouldn't have ended any other way than a bun fight.

I agree with the italics. I know this from experience.....I'm not concerned with how a troop looks for the most part on operations. Performance counts.

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Offline bruce7711

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #80 on: October 27, 2010, 18:27:56 »

The people  most concerned about troops shaving and wearing boot bands or having their sleeve cuffs buttoned up aren't the ones being sent home with the flag over them.

I disagree with this statement.  A uniform is worn for a reason, and worn a certain way for a reason.  If a soldier cannot take that extra few minutes to blouse his pants or do up his sleeves, what other areas is he cutting corners?  Having unbloused pants in Afghanistan is more of a 'look cool' factor than anything else.  It does nothing in means of ventilation, as some say, and allows all manner of critters to get in there.  Not doing up your sleeves is again laziness.  I have served with some fine soldiers, extremely brave soldiers some of them, in numerous contacts with the enemy.  They still managed to fight hard with buttons done up and pants bloused.  It comes down to PPE and enforcing the correct wearing of it amongst your troops.  If they dont dress properly and you let it slide, then you are ineffective as a leader.  It doesnt matter if its critters, flash burns, shrapnel or a cut/scratch that becomes infected.  If you allow them to dress haphazardly then you are at fault.

To say that the only people concerned about such things are the ones who never see combat is both idiotic and immature and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding.  Anyone concerned about their soldiers welfare should care very much.

I imagine you believe that ballistic eyewear and gloves are over-rated as well.

Offline Sprinting Thistle

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #81 on: October 27, 2010, 18:41:18 »
Kiwi is right.  The RSM of TF 3-06 was concerned with the operational efficiency and readiness of his troops which included attention to detail such as proper field hygiene to include washing and shaving, the proper fit and wearing of PPE, proper dress.  He was known and loved as a warrior, a leader, and a friend by all ranks in the TF.  He was also killed by a suicide bomber while deploying outside the wire in a Bison loaded with med supplies, ammunition, and even a small item such as clippers for beards.   

Offline bruce7711

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #82 on: October 27, 2010, 20:12:39 »
I also know of a TFK Commander that did over 11,500km on those roads, attacked an ambush, got IED'd, got mortared. And his RSM was with him every time, in over 150 combat patrols! Their dress was always sorted, and they ensured that the troops were sorted too.  If not, the problems were corrected before they left.  But, according to the earlier poster, those that care about dress and PPE are those never in harms way.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #83 on: October 27, 2010, 20:13:14 »
I disagree with this statement.  A uniform is worn for a reason, and worn a certain way for a reason.  If a soldier cannot take that extra few minutes to blouse his pants or do up his sleeves, what other areas is he cutting corners?  Having unbloused pants in Afghanistan is more of a 'look cool' factor than anything else.  It does nothing in means of ventilation, as some say, and allows all manner of critters to get in there.
I'm surprised you think that.  You think bloused up pants are awesome for the field of Afghanistan, that's cool. I know a lot of other guys who don't.
There is a difference between Canada and a warzone, if you want to see what I mean take a look at what's allowed to be loaded on an HSVS.

 
Quote
Not doing up your sleeves is again laziness.  I have served with some fine soldiers, extremely brave soldiers some of them, in numerous contacts with the enemy.  They still managed to fight hard with buttons done up and pants bloused.  It comes down to PPE and enforcing the correct wearing of it amongst your troops.  If they dont dress properly and you let it slide, then you are ineffective as a leader.  It doesnt matter if its critters, flash burns, shrapnel or a cut/scratch that becomes infected.  If you allow them to dress haphazardly then you are at fault.
Critters can get down your pants when your boots aren't bloused but blousing them stops them? Because the blouse forms an airtight seal and theres no gap between the boot and the blousing? You're pants hanging over your laces doesn't odffer added protection from getting damaged? Okay.

Quote
To say that the only people concerned about such things are the ones who never see combat is both idiotic and immature and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding.  Anyone concerned about their soldiers welfare should care very much.
I guess guys like me and Jim are right out to lunch. I remember  important points from o-groups coming down like troops will only wear gloves and/or touques on KAF *IF* they have a raincoat on too! Anyone in violation of this will be disciplined. Or dependiong on who you're with NCOs weren't allowed carrying pistols because it made them look like officers  ::)
 Being at the PRT I felt like I was doing drill on the hill.


Quote
I imagine you believe that ballistic eyewear and gloves are over-rated as well.
ya man you got me, good zinger. Who needs ballastic eye wear and gloves? I don't.  (I remember getting issued gloves and using them for a while until they noticed IEDs were shrink-wrapping the gloves to our hands, oops)
 I  also wouldn't bring my NVGs with me and I don't wear my rear plate either cause I'm not going to get shot in the back.

If you don't think that all the fun dress regs don't come down from higher than the RSM, well, okay then.


ST, I was at Y101 lines when  Girouard gave some of his speeches. (If you don't want to be here, **** you!) You're right he was concered about proper dress, and he had a few things to say about the need to enforce "stupid rules" too- I'll leave it at that.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #84 on: October 27, 2010, 20:17:55 »
I also know of a TFK Commander that did over 11,500km on those roads, attacked an ambush, got IED'd, got mortared. And his RSM was with him every time, in over 150 combat patrols! Their dress was always sorted, and they ensured that the troops were sorted too.  If not, the problems were corrected before they left.  But, according to the earlier poster, those that care about dress and PPE are those never in harms way.

Since when did I say PPE?
I said shaving, boot bands and their sleeves. I'll conceed that sleeves need to be done up outside the wire, I totally agree with that.  WRT to sleeves I meant inside the FOB, at the PRT or at KAF.
Boot bands and shaving aren't PPE

My comment was directed to the types that make these rules up yet never leave the saftey of the office. NOT the soldiers who do.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 20:21:26 by Grimaldus »
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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #85 on: October 27, 2010, 20:26:54 »
Boot bands and shaving aren't PPE
I'll let someone else comment about boot bands.  But I will note that even in WW1 and WW2, we "bloused" our trousers when we wore them, using gaitors or puttees, depending on the war.  I'm certain there was a reason other than "looking cool".

As for shaving, I would consider it "PPE" in terms of hygiene.  Soldiers who aren't shaving aren't washing (most likely).  It's a morale boost to feel clean, and it's vital, IMHO, to retain that feeling of "being human".  I get it that when it comes to water, there's only so much some times, and in those cases in which the troops find themselves in a water rationing situation may not have the water with which to wash/shave.  But then it should become an operational imperative to get water to the troops so that they can conduct basic personal hygiene, and avoiding becoming a burden.  Yes, poor hygiene can lead to poor health.

So, there I was....

Offline bruce7711

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #86 on: October 27, 2010, 20:36:53 »
Your arguments are really quite weak and you seem rather bitter.

With regards what goes on an HSVS there is a reason why we do things in Canada.  I recall some wonder kids deciding to put diesel and rations on the some truck.  That turned out really well as the Company ended up with a lot of diesel and no edible food.

Just because you are in Afghanistan doesn't mean you get to do what you want. If the order is to blouse pants and shave then you do so.  if you can provide a good enough reason why you shouldn't, then take it up the chain.  Or just disregard orders and set a fine example for your troops with regards to professionalism.

Yeah, O-Grp points about dress can sometimes be pretty stupid.  But they are in the O-Grp for a reason, more often than not because of something a soldier did to himslef because he wasn't wearing the kit properly or at all.

With regards to the rules on KAF, why not?  A huge multi national base with national and global media everywhere.  Why not instruct a standard of dress and deportment so that soldiers represented Canada in a good way?  Or we could just slum around KAF unshaven, in dirty combats, looking like bums.

Now if you can tell me one good reason why blousing pants is a silly idea, I will accept it.  Same with cuff buttons on sleeves and beards.  And anything else you deem to be a silly dress reg.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #87 on: October 27, 2010, 20:38:00 »

As for shaving, I would consider it "PPE" in terms of hygiene.
Maybe. I cut my face a lot when I'm shaving. Especially if I'm rationing the use of my razor's and they get dull. Is open cuts in the poo dust  better than not shaving?
Quote
Soldiers who aren't shaving aren't washing (most likely).
Thats like saying most soldiers who do shave have extra time on their hands.  ;)
 I washed every day or every chance I could get, the times when I didn't shave didn't mean I was being lazy and avoided hygiene.

Quote
  It's a morale boost to feel clean, and it's vital, IMHO, to retain that feeling of "being human".
Agreed. That's why I started shaving even when it wasn't a requirement.
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Offline bruce7711

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #88 on: October 27, 2010, 20:43:18 »
Since when did I say PPE?
I said shaving, boot bands and their sleeves. I'll conceed that sleeves need to be done up outside the wire, I totally agree with that.  WRT to sleeves I meant inside the FOB, at the PRT or at KAF.
Boot bands and shaving aren't PPE

My comment was directed to the types that make these rules up yet never leave the saftey of the office. NOT the soldiers who do.

Even in the FOBS, at the PRT, on KAF.  You normally have ANA in your FOBS as well, we are an example to them, so set a good one.  Dress and deportment is just as important as every other aspect of soldiering.  Let them see you look like an orphan and they will want to be one too.

The PRT, when it was Canadian, WAS Canadian.  The rules apply just as much there as they do out at belanday etc.

As for the soldiers that make up these contested rules from their offices, have you approached them to count her their argument with a well thought out series of other possible options?  You would be surprised how many would listen and learn from you and implement the change.  If they don't, you tried.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #89 on: October 27, 2010, 20:53:34 »
Your arguments are really quite weak and you seem rather bitter.

Not really, I don't care either way. I prefer to shave every day, even when not required. I'm balding and it looks funny, especially since I'm not a pioneer.

Quote
With regards what goes on an HSVS there is a reason why we do things in Canada.  I recall some wonder kids deciding to put diesel and rations on the some truck.  That turned out really well as the Company ended up with a lot of diesel and no edible food.
Excellent point. What's more important, the company getting a whole bunch of diesel and nothing to eat back in Canada or troops going without food in Afghanistan.

Quote
Just because you are in Afghanistan doesn't mean you get to do what you want. If the order is to blouse pants and shave then you do so.  if you can provide a good enough reason why you shouldn't, then take it up the chain.  Or just disregard orders and set a fine example for your troops with regards to professionalism.
Agreed. If my soldiers ***** about it I tell them to do it anyways because their soldiers and soldiers are most happy when following orders  ;D
If I really think it's that much of an issue I'll bring it up the CoC.


Quote
  Or we could just slum around KAF unshaven, in dirty combats, looking like bums.
And that we actually do soldiering instead  of like some of the groups that aren't allowed outside the wire and sit around and eat all day.
I agree it's important to look professional, on the same note having your boots unbloused doesn't mean you look like a scumbag.

Quote
Now if you can tell me one good reason why blousing pants is a silly idea, I will accept it.  Same with cuff buttons on sleeves and beards.  And anything else you deem to be a silly dress reg.
I simply don't see a big deal about blousing your boots, I know unbloused boots make people pass out in fear or spin in circles like it's the end of discipline as we know it- not me. I don't see having your cuffs undone on a base as a big deal and I don't care one way or the other about shaving.

Wanna talk unprofessional? The Canadian soldiers that can barely fit in their uniform and I don't just mean some heafty clerk type. Combat arms has their fair share of porkers. I'll take an unbloused boot bearded troop over someone who looks like their seams are ready to rip open any day. THATS embarassing infront of other countries.
(Now we're just talking in circles though)


An example to the ANA?  lol Sorry, it's been a pleasure but that's my cue to pull pole!    :salute:
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 20:57:25 by Grimaldus »
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Offline bruce7711

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #90 on: October 27, 2010, 21:04:22 »
Not really, I don't care either way. I prefer to shave every day, even when not required. I'm balding and it looks funny, especially since I'm not a pioneer.
Excellent point. What's more important, the company getting a whole bunch of diesel and nothing to eat back in Canada or troops going without food in Afghanistan.
Agreed. If my soldiers ***** about it I tell them to do it anyways because their soldiers and soldiers are most happy when following orders  ;D
If I really think it's that much of an issue I'll bring it up the CoC.

And that we actually do soldiering instead  of like some of the groups that aren't allowed outside the wire and sit around and eat all day.
I agree it's important to look professional, on the same note having your boots unbloused doesn't mean you look like a scumbag.
I simply don't see a big deal about blousing your boots, I know unbloused boots make people pass out in fear or spin in circles like it's the end of discipline as we know it- not me. I don't see having your cuffs undone on a base as a big deal and I don't care one way or the other about shaving.

Wanna talk unprofessional? The Canadian soldiers that can barely fit in their uniform and I don't just mean some heafty clerk type. Combat arms has their fair share of porkers. I'll take an unbloused boot bearded troop over someone who looks like their seams are ready to rip open any day. THATS embarassing infront of other countries.
(Now we're just talking in circles though)


An example to the ANA?  lol Sorry, it's been a pleasure but that's my cue to pull pole!    :salute:

I won't defend the people on KAF, nor the 'porkers' in our trade.  Needless to say, what they do we do not know or understand, much as what we do they have no idea about.  But to criticize them for choosing a different trade seems rather pointless to me.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #91 on: October 27, 2010, 21:12:39 »
Just wanted to add I'm not criticizing them for taking another trade my man. (I've always defended how vital ALL trades are)
 I'm saying it's NOT just "some clerk" or another support type as us combat arms are apt to poke fun at. I'm talking Infantry, artillery, armored, medics....everyone.
 We were the "biggest" contingent in country and to me that's a zinger when it comes to even just looking professional.
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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #92 on: October 28, 2010, 00:31:04 »
Check with your chain of command.  IIRC, there was a Task Force policy that required the TF Surgeon to sign off on beards in theater to avoid a bunch of bearded soldiers carrying weak "no-shave" chits from Base MIRs.  At least this was the case with a few of my soldiers.
Despite multiple requests being made during Ex MG in Wainwright, there were no beard chits ("excuse barbe") issued by the TF Surg.  Unless there are extenuating medical circumstances, I think it unlikely that the 3-10 TF Surg will be signing off on beard chits in theatre.

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #93 on: October 28, 2010, 07:39:31 »
Okay, how do you blouse boots?   ;)

Blousing the pants, whether by boot band or by the strings is not as important in protection against biting insects as is tucking the dust flap on the pants into the boots.  I love seeing that line of skin between the boots and the bottom of the pants and I'm sure the ticks, mosquitoes and sand flies do too.

But I digress.....
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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #94 on: October 28, 2010, 11:09:32 »
I admit that I fall somewhere in the middle on this issue. I accept that when you're out in the boonies in contact with the enemy, then certain latitudes are acceptable. However when you return to camp, you should return to being a properly turned out soldier. Both states of dress are acceptable.... each in their own place and time. As a Pl WO and later SM, I never got on my troops back for coming in from the field in disarray. I gave them sufficient time to sort themselves out, and they knew the expectation. Not once did I have to square them off for looking disheveled after having enough time to clean up. I guess I was lucky.
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #95 on: October 28, 2010, 11:27:44 »
I admit that I fall somewhere in the middle on this issue. I accept that when you're out in the boonies in contact with the enemy, then certain latitudes are acceptable. However when you return to camp, you should return to being a properly turned out soldier. Both states of dress are acceptable.... each in their own place and time. As a Pl WO and later SM, I never got on my troops back for coming in from the field in disarray. I gave them sufficient time to sort themselves out, and they knew the expectation. Not once did I have to square them off for looking disheveled after having enough time to clean up. I guess I was lucky.

That's using common sense. Stop that!! You know that you're supposed to be a nut raving lunatic.  ;D
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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #96 on: October 28, 2010, 11:46:44 »
I admit that I fall somewhere in the middle on this issue. I accept that when you're out in the boonies in contact with the enemy, then certain latitudes are acceptable. However when you return to camp, you should return to being a properly turned out soldier. Both states of dress are acceptable.... each in their own place and time. As a Pl WO and later SM, I never got on my troops back for coming in from the field in disarray. I gave them sufficient time to sort themselves out, and they knew the expectation. Not once did I have to square them off for looking disheveled after having enough time to clean up. I guess I was lucky.

I wish there were more leaders like you. We had a rule in my section, in that if you couldn't shower on a daily basis (out at a strong point, etc) you didn't have to shave. But once you came back to KAF/MSG, you had 24 hours to shower and shave. Each of the det comds made sure there was time for the members to go and do this. Never had a problem with it, even with coming back into KAF after 2 months into a pristine office space.

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #97 on: October 28, 2010, 13:09:21 »
[rant]
Call me old school on this, but we are professional soldiers, not a rabble.  Pride in personal appearance is what separates us from mercenaries.  We fight for King, Country, Regiment, etc. As such, ensuring that you have (a) functional kit and then (b) tidy up yourself (in that priority). You WILL ensure that you remain subordinate to your chain of command, to whom you have unlimited liability.  So, if you think you are "above" shaving, I'll kindly ask you to submit your resignation from Her Majesty's Canadian Armed Forces, because if you cannot obey me, a representative of Her Majesty, then you don't deserve to serve in the same uniform I am proud to wear.

So, take five minutes each day (if water is available), wash your genitals, wash your face, and remove that stubble from your chin.  Our fore-fathers did it in the face of continuous artillery and machine-gun fire, daily, and for weeks on end.  Just because you are in a COP/FOB or "OTW" for a few days doesn't cut it to me.  It's lazy, and I'll have none of that in my unit, if I have anything to say about that.


Same goes for wearing your uniform as issued and ordered.  This comes back to point (a).  I could care less if you have a chest rig, Tac Vest, Web Belt or whatever.  Just as long as your immediate chain of command is satisfied that it meets the requirements of the job, that's good. But blouse your trousers (as ordered), wear your gloves and eyewear (as ordered) and put your god-damned plates in: front AND back.  I don't care if you think you're John Wayne, Mr. T and Chuck Norris combined, I'm not sending you home in a body bag if I can avoid it.  And you'll do what your ordered to do by your chain of command.  If not, you're cut from the team.



[/rant]
So, there I was....

Offline Pusser

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #98 on: October 28, 2010, 14:29:50 »
[rant]
So, take five minutes each day (if water is available), wash your genitals, wash your face, and remove that stubble from your chin.  Our fore-fathers did it in the face of continuous artillery and machine-gun fire, daily, and for weeks on end.  Just because you are in a COP/FOB or "OTW" for a few days doesn't cut it to me.  It's lazy, and I'll have none of that in my unit, if I have anything to say about that.
[/rant]

That's not entirely true.  Soldiers not wearing beards is mostly a 20th century thing.  Beards were very common in the Victorian, including on operations in Africa and India.  Furthermore, if you look at photos of the special ops guys in the desert in WWII, you see a lot of beards.  That goes against the "beards are nasty in the desert" argument as well. 

Anyone who thinks that beards are uncomfortable under any conditions, obviously hasn't worn one for any length of time.  The only time I realize mine is there is when I touch it with my hand (which I do from time time because I don't have a ponytail to play with).  It doesn't itch and heat doesn't bother me (at least from a beard perspective), but it does provide some protection from biting cold and it's kind of cool when it freezes up.  In fact, my beard is most uncomfortable when it's not there.  The wife and kids scream because there's a strange man in the house and my chin gets cold, even in July.

On another note, what is the connection between hygiene and beards?  Do people think that beards prevent you form washing your face?  By that argument, you can't sponge bathe your genitals either!  Or does the Army  take "clean-shaven" more seriously than I thought? ;D  The beard gets washed every time I shower and/or when I wash my face when showers are not available (which is actually quite rare in the modern Navy).
Sure, apes read Nietzsche.  They just don't understand it.

Offline NFLD Sapper

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Re: All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)
« Reply #99 on: October 28, 2010, 14:40:43 »
My 2 cents to the OP, you are being ordered to shave if you got problems with that got back to the MIR and get a new chit to clarify your original one....
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