Author Topic: Canadian Airborne..opening for reserves aswell?  (Read 32162 times)

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Offline ThatsLife

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Canadian Airborne..opening for reserves aswell?
« on: July 23, 2005, 16:38:09 »
I've tried looking all over this board for this but I couldn't find it. I've tried looking online but I only found The Canadian Airborne Museum. So i'm going to ask my question:

Is the Canadian Airborne opening up for the reserves aswell? or is it strictly just a regular force unit due to the "aiding of JTF-2" info i've read up on.
"Yes I could go for a frozen treat right about now. But no sprinkles. For every sprinkle I find, I shall kill you. "

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Re: Canadian Airborne..opening for reserves aswell?
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2005, 16:41:31 »
If you're refering to the Canadian Airborne Regiment, it no longer exists.
If you're refering to getting on a jump course in the reserves, yes, if you're a switched on troop you might be able to get yourself on a jump course.

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Re: Canadian Airborne..opening for reserves aswell?
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2005, 16:41:36 »
Ummm the Canadian Airborne Regiment was disbanded by the politicos due to the fall out after the Somalia affair. Our parachute capability now consists of 3 jump companies in each Light Infantry Battalion.
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Offline ThatsLife

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Re: Canadian Airborne..opening for reserves aswell?
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2005, 16:43:14 »
Oh, is that what it is. I might of misunderstood the rumour then. But thank you for the replies, i'll look into it.
"Yes I could go for a frozen treat right about now. But no sprinkles. For every sprinkle I find, I shall kill you. "

Offline J. Gayson

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Re: Canadian Airborne..opening for reserves aswell?
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2005, 20:20:06 »
I think he is referrinf to that rumor about the new infantry regiment being created.  A lot of fellow reservists I have spoken to seem to think it is an airborne regiment that is being formed.

Offline MCG

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Re: Canadian Airborne..opening for reserves aswell?
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2005, 21:48:07 »
I think he is referrinf to that rumor about the new infantry regiment being created.   A lot of fellow reservists I have spoken to seem to think it is an airborne regiment that is being formed.
They are all in a fantasy.  There is no new infantry regiment being formed.   A little research on these boards will lead you to some discussion on expanded roles for the light battalions and a new special operations group.

Offline Gunner

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Re: Canadian Airborne..opening for reserves aswell?
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2005, 22:33:34 »
The only Reserve unit with a "jump tasking" is the Queens Own Rifles in Ontario.
Had a wonderful ~26 years in the military and still miss it.

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Re: Canadian Airborne..opening for reserves aswell?
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2005, 16:18:13 »
I have a lot or respect for the men who were in the Airborne regiment, alot of respect! And some for guys in the jump coy's (the one's who realize that there are other soldier's who have a role to play) so don't go bonker's over my opinion. We don't have an airborne capability. Our herc's barely make to Newfoundland. There 2 maybe 3 countries in the world who can field airborne units and they are taking a real hard look at that capability. Like I said I'm not dissing the jumpers in our army, but we have other priorities. We need to qualify our troops with useful qualifications, recruit, and train leader's. I get so sick of hearing reservists who want to transfer to our ranks or BIQ recruits say I want to join the Airborne or the jump Companies. Take a look where we are operating right now. I don't think having your jump course is really going to do you any good. Except being physically fit and aggressive, but if your neither, than you need a new job.

Offline GDawg

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Re: Canadian Airborne..opening for reserves aswell?
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2005, 16:30:49 »
Perhaps mountain ops qualifications will be the next big thing for new troops and reservists to strive for?

Considering operations from our recent past and present Mountain warfare is more important to us in practical terms than being jump qualified.

I'll be the first to admit I ain't an expert on the pointy end of our military, but when was the last time Canadians jumped into combat compared to climbing a mountain to destroy the enemy?

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Re: Canadian Airborne..opening for reserves aswell?
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2005, 16:44:04 »
I was in Afghanistan in 2002 and I agree that would have been a more useful skill, especially in Tora Bora. At least an MOI per section would have been good.

Offline Roy Harding

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Re: Canadian Airborne..opening for reserves aswell?
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2005, 17:01:36 »
I have a lot or respect for the men who were in the Airborne regiment, alot of respect! And some for guys in the jump coy's (the one's who realize that there are other soldier's who have a role to play) so don't go bonker's over my opinion. We don't have an airborne capability. Our herc's barely make to Newfoundland. There 2 maybe 3 countries in the world who can field airborne units and they are taking a real hard look at that capability. Like I said I'm not dissing the jumpers in our army, but we have other priorities. We need to qualify our troops with useful qualifications, recruit, and train leader's. I get so sick of hearing reservists who want to transfer to our ranks or BIQ recruits say I want to join the Airborne or the jump Companies. Take a look where we are operating right now. I don't think having your jump course is really going to do you any good. Except being physically fit and aggressive, but if your neither, than you need a new job.

Your basic point is correct, BITTER PPCLI CPL.  Airborne forces are ENORMOUSLY expensive in materiel, relative to their strategic value.  Their relative value to a military organization has been argued since at LEAST WWII.  Other training (Mountain Ops? Desert Ops?) may well have more relevance to our current operations.

However - and this is the point many miss - intrinsic to Airborne training is the inculcation of a "can do, will do" attitude that has not been successfully replicated in other types of training.  The soldiers who have gone through this training usually become one of the "movers and shakers" of their organization - regardless that organization is a Section, Platoon, Company, Battalion, or Brigade (or any other organization you care to name).  Jumpers are true force multipliers - regardless they are in a jump slot or not.

Does this mean that Jumpers are "better soldiers"? - absolutely not.

Does it mean that only Jumpers become "movers and shakers"? - absolutely not.

What it DOES mean, is that so far Airborne training is the most reliable means of identifying, and nurturing those "can do" attitudes in "general purpose" soldiers (we'll leave SF out of this for now).  There are other methods and means to achieving the same end - they're just not as reliable.

Take care of yourself BITTER PPCLI CPL - I enjoy reading your posts.
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Offline GO!!!

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Re: Canadian Airborne..opening for reserves aswell?
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2005, 20:11:08 »
In my opinion, we keep the jump coys around for an excellent set of reasons.

1) static line parachuting is an equaliser. The standards for entry and continued performance do not decline for anyone, so you must do the same job, even if you are old, female, a visible minority etc.

2) In order to have the motivation to jump 120lbs of kit and know that if you screw up the exit or landing you could be horribly injured - and you still do it, out of personal pride, arrogance, esprit de corps, whatever, then you are demonstrating a degree of dedication that someone safely ensconced in a LAV does not have to - not to say that they could'nt, but no - one is asking them to.

3) PT and trg are usually the hardest and best in the jump coys, not too many men in maternity wear waddling around.

4) Jumpers are all volunteers. You can ask for your green beret back at any time, there's lots of guys that want a maroon one.

5) In my experience, by all quantifiable standards, the jump companies have higher scores on the Cooper's test, and a much larger number of them shoot marksman.

6) The jump coys give troops something to aspire to - a bit more pay, a cool course, a distinctive uniform, and the kickass rush of jumping!!

7) If mountain ops is to become the replacement for the jump course, it will have to be totally reworked, because right now it is hardly more than a civilian course with guns and rations. I've both worked on it and taken it.

This will also be the most controversial part of my post, but in my experience, the people who most often vehemently oppose airborne units, and continually justify their disbandment, are those who never were able to achive the standard required for entry, or continued employment in one - sour grapes if you will.

No leader was ever hated for being too hard, but a great many were for attempting to appear that way.

Offline pioneer 4ever

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Re: Canadian Airborne..opening for reserves aswell?
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2005, 21:32:24 »
i totally agree with GO :salute:

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Re: Canadian Airborne..opening for reserves aswell?
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2005, 21:49:52 »
But it is it practical for the operation tempo?

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Re: Canadian Airborne..opening for reserves aswell?
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2005, 22:04:25 »
But it is it practical for the operation tempo?

To maintain a force of highly motivated, fit, experienced troops who will take any mission on with gusto?

I would lean towards "yes"
No leader was ever hated for being too hard, but a great many were for attempting to appear that way.

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Re: Canadian Airborne..opening for reserves aswell?
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2005, 09:38:57 »
So then get the soldiers to increase their fitness level, and if they are not there to accomplish the mission then replace them. Don't spend millions of training dollars so you think we'll get those kind of soldiers. I've had run ins with a few jumpers (I know a few and they're pretty damn cool) and while they're physically fit they are also dumber than a plastic knife, now this is not all jumpers mind you. Don't get me wrong GO, I like your attitude and you know your s*** in your post's. :salute:

Offline Roy Harding

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Re: Canadian Airborne..opening for reserves aswell?
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2005, 09:42:46 »
So then get the soldiers to increase their fitness level, and if they are not there to accomplish the mission then replace them. Don't spend millions of training dollars so you think we'll get those kind of soldiers. I've had run ins with a few jumpers (I know a few and they're pretty damn cool) and while they're physically fit they are also dumber than a plastic knife, now this is not all jumpers mind you. Don't get me wrong GO, I like your attitude and you know your s*** in your post's. :salute:

Exactly - however, as I stated in an earlier post - Airborne training is the most reliable method SO FAR.

What would YOU suggest as a training regime designed to bring out the same qualities?
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Re: Canadian Airborne..opening for reserves aswell?
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2005, 10:25:31 »
You have me there CC (and this the last I reply on this topic, just so I don't piss of any administrator's, being new and all) my original point was the capability and spending alot of money,and  from what I hear, we don't have. Do jump course's identify alot of these personalities, yes, does it benefit the whole (because apparently we are supposed to be team players, so I'm told, rarely seen!) I disagree. Recce courses on the other hand identify alot more soldiering skill, while not as much as jumping, I find younger soldiers learn more from a reccer soldier's skills than anything else.

Offline Island Ryhno

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Re: Canadian Airborne..opening for reserves aswell?
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2005, 10:30:46 »
How about incorporating it all into a Ranger style course. Seems to be the best of soldiering and airborne. Thoughts!
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Offline paracowboy

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Re: Canadian Airborne..opening for reserves aswell?
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2005, 11:24:27 »
the difference is not what skills are taught, but rather, what mentality is taught. By leaping from an aircraft in flight, you conquer fear. It teaches you things about yourself that you simply cannot learn any other way. By putting up with 2 weeks of (seemingly) pointless abuse, you learn new things about self-discipline. There is no way to convince those who have not experienced it, but I have served alongside legs, and I have served alongside jumpers. There is a noticeable difference when in a jump unit. Not so much in the skills, but in the mentality.
Airborne courses are vital to a war-fighting military. Airborne units are more so. If we want to be a mob of Peace-keepers, than we require neither. If we want to be a war-fighting capable force, then we require Jumpers and the means to produce and transport them.

A few quotes that show what I mean:
Quote
Parachute jumping tests and hardens a soldier under stress in a way nothing short of battle can do. You never know about others. But paratroopers will fight.
- Field Marshall Montgomery
Quote
... When an enthusiastic horseman said that there was no delight on earth, like that which could be found on horseback, there were neither aircraft nor parachutes.  If a canter on a good horse is a wonderful sensation, it is one that cannot be compared with that of soaring into the air with the terrific but controlled power of an aircraft.
... Greater than either, however, is the almost superhuman sensation of the parachute jump. It alone compresses into the space of seconds feelings of concentrated energy, tenseness and abandon; it alone demands a continual and unconditional readiness to risk one's life. Therefore the parachutist experiences the most exalted feelings of which human beings are capable, namely that of victory over one's self.  For us parachutists, the words of the poet, who said that unless you stake your life you will never win it, is no empty phrase.
- General-Lieutenant Bruno Brauer
German Parachute Regiment
Quote
If you want to find out if a guy will fight in battle, find out if he'll jump out of an airplane. If he will, you'll know he's a fighter.
Brigadier General James M Gavin
Comd 82 Airborne Division (1944)
...time to cull the herd.

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Re: Canadian Airborne..opening for reserves aswell?
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2005, 12:29:49 »
I beg to differ on the last quote. The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders who did the bayonet charge, they weren't airborne, the recent VC winner wasn't either, he is a Warrior driver and so are the 100,000 troops fighting and dying in Iraq today.

Offline paracowboy

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Re: Canadian Airborne..opening for reserves aswell?
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2005, 13:13:08 »
the quote doesn't say that NAPs won't fight, it simply says that you know a man who'll jump will fight. Nothing more.
...time to cull the herd.

Offline >>Paladin<<

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Re: Canadian Airborne..opening for reserves aswell?
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2005, 13:52:03 »
I don't know about the rest of you guys but the title of this topic "Canadian Airborne..opening for reserves aswell?" sounds pretty f***ing hilarious to me, regardless of what's being posted here.
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Offline Unknown Factor

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Re: Canadian Airborne..opening for reserves aswell?
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2005, 15:07:28 »
I don't know about the rest of you guys but the title of this topic "Canadian Airborne..opening for reserves aswell?" sounds pretty f***ing hilarious to me, regardless of what's being posted here.

I agree, do you guys not think that you've completely gotten off track? You want to be Airborne in the reserves move to Toronto and join the QOR's, good luck!

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Re: Canadian Airborne..opening for reserves aswell?
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2005, 16:45:57 »
I don't know about the rest of you guys but the title of this topic "Canadian Airborne..opening for reserves aswell?" sounds pretty f***ing hilarious to me, regardless of what's being posted here.

I agree. Wanna be a paratrooper? Join the regs. Otherwise, you will have to be content with tuesday nights and maybe a kilt.  :)
No leader was ever hated for being too hard, but a great many were for attempting to appear that way.