Author Topic: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter  (Read 163298 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Quirky

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 10,465
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 328
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #450 on: March 01, 2019, 08:00:57 »
Sooo...$1.15 Billion is $64Million per airframe....and the US is trying to get the flyaway on the F-35 down to $85 Million????

When you factor in costs to retrofit a single aircraft at L3, $64mil sounds about right. The engines were not included in the deal either, so we have to find 20 somewhere in the system - assuming they keep 10 in a flyable state. If remember correctly, that means if an engine comes out for rebuild, there won’t enough spares. That aircraft will sit until it’s fixed or they’ll have to rob. It’s going to suck being a hornet maintainer for the next 10 years.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2019, 08:03:51 by Quirky »

Offline dapaterson

    Halfway to being an idiot-savant.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 490,385
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 17,439
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #451 on: March 01, 2019, 08:27:35 »
Sooo...$1.15 Billion is $64Million per airframe....and the US is trying to get the flyaway on the F-35 down to $85 Million????

That $1.15B figure includes operating costs - fuel & maintenance for the estimated life.  It's not a purchase price, or even purchase plus refit.  It's purchase plus refit plus operating plus disposal at the end of life.

(Plus, the $1.15B is CAD and the $85M is USD).
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline MarkOttawa

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 80,855
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 6,941
  • Two birthdays
    • The 3Ds Blog
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #452 on: March 01, 2019, 14:40:30 »
And that is a hell of a silly way to cost procurements since many of those operating costs etc. are going to exist (at differing levels) for any plane or ship we buy.

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline dapaterson

    Halfway to being an idiot-savant.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 490,385
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 17,439
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #453 on: March 01, 2019, 14:53:14 »
And that is a hell of a silly way to cost procurements since many of those operating costs etc. are going to exist (at differing levels) for any plane or ship we buy.

Mark
Ottawa

But the PBO didn't cost the procurement - they costed the lifecycle.  Which is important - otherwise you buy cheap up front, and pay more lifecycle.  Done well, you can avoid (or at least identify in advance) pressure points for money in outyears; otherwise, you're in constant reaction mode.

Interestingly enough, if you add the contingency funding DND has identified that the PBO excluded in their comparison, their figures are remarkably similar...
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline milnews.ca

  • Info Curator, Baker & Food Slut
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Relic
  • *
  • 452,775
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 22,907
    • MILNEWS.ca-Military News for Canadians
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #454 on: March 01, 2019, 15:47:15 »
And, for the record, this from the DND info-machine ...
Quote
Statement in response to the Parliamentary Budget Officer’s Fiscal Analysis of the Interim F-18 Aircraft
From: National Defence

Statement

The Department of National Defence (DND) welcomes the Parliamentary Budget Officer’s Fiscal Analysis of the Interim F-18 Aircraft; we have a good relationship with this office, and value their work.

Overall, our costing is extremely close to that of the PBO on the majority of line items, including the acquisition of the F-18s, infrastructure, and conversion to the CF-18 configuration. The difference in the final total is largely attributable to two factors:

    First, as noted in the report itself, the PBO did not include our contingency in their calculations of “DND numbers.”
    And second, the PBO figures for upgrades of the interim fighter fleet include estimates for CF-18 combat upgrades; we are still producing options for these upgrades.

DND’s methodology for full costing has been developed over the last several years and validated in the development of the Strong, Secure, Engaged defence policy. While we are confident that our methodology is sound, we will continue to work with the PBO, the Auditor General of Canada, and other outside entities as part of our commitment to responsible use of taxpayer dollars.

The first two interim aircraft arrived in Cold Lake on February 16, and modifications have already begun to Canadianize them. We look forward to unveiling them in RCAF colours and ready for their first Canadian mission in the coming months.
“The risk of insult is the price of clarity.” -- Roy H. Williams

The words I share here are my own, not those of anyone else or anybody I may be affiliated with.

Tony Prudori
MILNEWS.ca - Twitter

Offline Loachman

  • Former Army Pilot in Drag
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 219,852
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,504
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #455 on: March 02, 2019, 10:17:21 »
I am guessing that, for each one of these machines purchased and brought up to our standard at great cost, one of our existing machines, already in that state, will be pushed into a hangar and stored, there being no more Pilots and Techs than there were prior to this purchase.

Offline RDBZ

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 3,030
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 96
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #456 on: March 02, 2019, 14:54:31 »
I am guessing that, for each one of these machines purchased and brought up to our standard at great cost, one of our existing machines, already in that state, will be pushed into a hangar and stored, there being no more Pilots and Techs than there were prior to this purchase.

Wasn't that the the aim of the purchase; to acquire airframes with significantly fewer fight hours to provide flexibility in managing the fleet until eventual replacement?

I'd be surprised if the cost was "great" though. Conversion seems to be limited to things like changing the seat harness, installing an exterior light, removing a high frequency radio, and reloading software (the RAAF had integrated weapons like AGM-158 JASSM, AIM-132, and JDAM-ER which the RCAF doesn't have in inventory).

Offline Downhiller229

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 3,790
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 70
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #457 on: March 02, 2019, 15:04:25 »
Wasn't that the the aim of the purchase; to acquire airframes with significantly fewer fight hours to provide flexibility in managing the fleet until eventual replacement?

I'd be surprised if the cost was "great" though. Conversion seems to be limited to things like changing the seat harness, installing an exterior light, removing a high frequency radio, and reloading software (the RAAF had integrated weapons like AGM-158 JASSM, AIM-132, and JDAM-ER which the RCAF doesn't have in inventory).

Seat harness? try complete ejection seat system.

Exterior light? try two engines and generators

Software? Try replacing all the displays and hoping our software works with it.


It is ridiculous and costly. Plus those things need corrosion studies done to see how much life are left in them

Offline RDBZ

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 3,030
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 96
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #458 on: March 02, 2019, 15:19:06 »
Seat harness? try complete ejection seat system.

Exterior light? try two engines and generators

Software? Try replacing all the displays and hoping our software works with it.


It is ridiculous and costly. Plus those things need corrosion studies done to see how much life are left in them

So Canada fitted ejection seats and engines that were different than other F-18 operators?   RAAF seats differ from USN only in terms of the harness.

"Canada’s CF-18s are of a similar configuration to those of the RAAF, having undergone an extensive upgrade in the late 1990s and early 2000s to a configuration similar to that of Australia’s multi-phased AIR 5375 Hornet Upgrade Program (HUG). Canadian CF-18s are fitted with a spotlight on the forward port fuselage, and there are minor differences in the weapons carried and in operational flight program software."

http://australianaviation.com.au/2019/01/raaf-hornet-sale-to-canada-finalised-report/

Offline Downhiller229

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 3,790
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 70
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #459 on: March 02, 2019, 16:25:27 »
So Canada fitted ejection seats and engines that were different than other F-18 operators?   RAAF seats differ from USN only in terms of the harness.

"Canada’s CF-18s are of a similar configuration to those of the RAAF, having undergone an extensive upgrade in the late 1990s and early 2000s to a configuration similar to that of Australia’s multi-phased AIR 5375 Hornet Upgrade Program (HUG). Canadian CF-18s are fitted with a spotlight on the forward port fuselage, and there are minor differences in the weapons carried and in operational flight program software."

http://australianaviation.com.au/2019/01/raaf-hornet-sale-to-canada-finalised-report/


 we didn’t buy the engines from the Aussies, they will be pulled and shipped back. We will need to find some to use those jets as we have very few spares.

The seat isn’t the same one we use. We will need to buy more.


Offline Quirky

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 10,465
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 328
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #460 on: March 02, 2019, 20:07:23 »
and generators

Which are complete garbage and are prone to failure. The generators haven't been improved but there was a massive upgrade of the avionics since delivery in the 80's.

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Myth
  • *****
  • 276,355
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 15,083
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #461 on: March 02, 2019, 20:54:43 »
Seat harness? try complete ejection seat system.

Exterior light? try two engines and generators

Software? Try replacing all the displays and hoping our software works with it.


It is ridiculous and costly. Plus those things need corrosion studies done to see how much life are left in them

So what you're saying is, this is the Air Force version of the Upholder Submarine fiasco, right?

I suppose it's the Army's turn next. Maybe they could buy us used US Marine rucksacks... oh... wait.... those are actually way better than what we have now, so that won't do. Just like their (Vancouver Canada based Arc Teryx made) raingear.

"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline SupersonicMax

    is back home.

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 87,495
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,901
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #462 on: March 02, 2019, 21:25:02 »
Which are complete garbage and are prone to failure. The generators haven't been improved but there was a massive upgrade of the avionics since delivery in the 80's.

The generator issues as across all F-18A-D fleets around the world.  They are not exclusive to us.

As far as mods on the RAAF aircraft, there are a fair amount but they all are relatively simple to embody (in fact, most were mods we did a couple of years ago).  Thr biggest issue will be configuration control of the aircraft and parts management.

Not saying it is a good idea to buy the aircraft (I see it as a way for the government to hit pause on the fighter file for a couple of years, nothing more) however we have to be fair in our assessment of the amount of work to be done to get the aircraft up to speed.

Offline Loachman

  • Former Army Pilot in Drag
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 219,852
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,504
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #463 on: March 02, 2019, 22:03:28 »
But - will this purchase actually improve anything?

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 157,735
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,034
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #464 on: March 02, 2019, 22:49:47 »
Are the engines any use to the Aussies? In other words we bought airframes, not aircraft.

Offline RDBZ

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 3,030
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 96
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #465 on: March 02, 2019, 23:38:03 »
The generator issues as across all F-18A-D fleets around the world.  They are not exclusive to us.

As far as mods on the RAAF aircraft, there are a fair amount but they all are relatively simple to embody (in fact, most were mods we did a couple of years ago).  Thr biggest issue will be configuration control of the aircraft and parts management.

Not saying it is a good idea to buy the aircraft (I see it as a way for the government to hit pause on the fighter file for a couple of years, nothing more) however we have to be fair in our assessment of the amount of work to be done to get the aircraft up to speed.

Would the RCAF bother with the structural upgrades though?  When the RAAF did the math on that they decided they weren't needed given the low hours on the airframes and the planned phase out timetable  (the classics have a pretty short lifespan ahead of them in RAAF service, with the last of the initial order of 72 F-35s to be delivered by 2023).  If these really are "interim" aircraft why would the RCAF see it differently?

 
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 00:02:04 by RDBZ »

Offline dapaterson

    Halfway to being an idiot-savant.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 490,385
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 17,439
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #466 on: March 03, 2019, 00:58:37 »
But - will this purchase actually improve anything?
If we get more YFR then yes.  Pilots want to fly.  More YFR means more flying for pilots.  Happy pilots.  And happy pilots are more likely to stay.
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline Baden Guy

    Full Member.

  • Question everything. Learn something. Answer nothing.
  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 52,622
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,923
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #467 on: March 03, 2019, 08:23:07 »
If we get more YFR then yes.  Pilots want to fly.  More YFR means more flying for pilots.  Happy pilots.  And happy pilots are more likely to stay.

 And this scenario will also result in enough techs to reach optimal YFR?

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 145,220
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,747
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #468 on: March 03, 2019, 08:29:52 »
Just one thing confuses me here: Did we acquire 18 airframe from Australia, meaning once the jets get over here we ship the engines back to the Aussies?

If so, it raises many questions:

1- Did the cost advertised by the government or determined by the PBO include acquisition of engines or not?
2- If not, then how much more will those engine cost? Or,
3- If we don't plan to buy engines (and use the airframes for spare parts), how does that increases the number of available airframes to the needed level of coverage of our "gap"?

Just asking as I don't get this airframe/engine separation thing that air forces do (our ships have come complete with motors ever since we abandoned sails  :nod:).

Offline Loachman

  • Former Army Pilot in Drag
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 219,852
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,504
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #469 on: March 03, 2019, 09:41:40 »
If we get more YFR then yes.  Pilots want to fly.  More YFR means more flying for pilots.  Happy pilots.  And happy pilots are more likely to stay.

As much YFR can be assigned as dictated by higher.

But, unless additional Techs can be minted, knitted, or purchased to match the additional number of airframes - or we take away the Saturdays, half of the Sundays (still allowing them to attend Church in the mornings, of course), and the lunch breaks from the existing ones and go full-Dickensian - there will be no more serviceable machines on the ramp than there are currently, and none of that increased YFR will be burnt off.

We are already well below the establishment of Pilots (I cannot speak to the Tech situation, but doubt that it's much rosier), and it's not just numbers that are concerning. Experience is a significant problem. We cannot retain and train enough.

We just had a new Captain posted in. He was awarded his Wings in Portage in December, and has at least a two-year wait until he gets his Chinook course. And that's not the only lengthy delay between courses. And he's not the only example.

I have seen nothing but decline since the mid-nineties.

Five years from now, these will be The Good Old Days.

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Myth
  • *****
  • 276,355
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 15,083
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #470 on: March 03, 2019, 13:44:23 »
As much YFR can be assigned as dictated by higher.

But, unless additional Techs can be minted, knitted, or purchased to match the additional number of airframes - or we take away the Saturdays, half of the Sundays (still allowing them to attend Church in the mornings, of course), and the lunch breaks from the existing ones and go full-Dickensian - there will be no more serviceable machines on the ramp than there are currently, and none of that increased YFR will be burnt off.

We are already well below the establishment of Pilots (I cannot speak to the Tech situation, but doubt that it's much rosier), and it's not just numbers that are concerning. Experience is a significant problem. We cannot retain and train enough.

We just had a new Captain posted in. He was awarded his Wings in Portage in December, and has at least a two-year wait until he gets his Chinook course. And that's not the only lengthy delay between courses. And he's not the only example.

I have seen nothing but decline since the mid-nineties.

Five years from now, these will be The Good Old Days.

Maybe they'll send us their aircrew too, because 'it's 2015+' ;)
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline RDBZ

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 3,030
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 96
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #471 on: March 03, 2019, 14:43:23 »
Just one thing confuses me here: Did we acquire 18 airframe from Australia, meaning once the jets get over here we ship the engines back to the Aussies?

If so, it raises many questions:

1- Did the cost advertised by the government or determined by the PBO include acquisition of engines or not?
2- If not, then how much more will those engine cost? Or,
3- If we don't plan to buy engines (and use the airframes for spare parts), how does that increases the number of available airframes to the needed level of coverage of our "gap"?

Just asking as I don't get this airframe/engine separation thing that air forces do (our ships have come complete with motors ever since we abandoned sails  :nod:).

The total buy is 25, with 7 to be used as parts.

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Myth
  • *****
  • 276,355
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 15,083
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #472 on: March 03, 2019, 15:31:53 »
The total buy is 25, with 7 to be used as parts.

Too bad we can't do that with Infantry. Yet. ;)
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Iron 1

  • Guest
  • *
  • 300
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 14
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #473 on: April 02, 2019, 19:16:07 »
10 year+ lurker around here. Finally took the plunge and signed in.

On topic (CF-18): Is there anyone around these parts who's "in the know" with regards to how these RAAF birds will be integrated with our existing tail numbers? Adding new from 188798/188940, or "filling in blanks" for aircraft SOS over the years?
Not that it matters, just curious.

I am not active military, just another one of those "kids" (I'm 55 this summer) who grew up following my Dad around during the Cold War.
Dad got out in (YOD) '86 after 35 years in ATC. BATCWO. I was there through the IOC of the Hornet and have always had an affinity for it.
Kind of a fan of the CF-104 as well...say no more. 4 years on the "pointy end" in Lahr and Baden and made it to YOD in time to see the "deadeye zips" of 417 do their thing.

Anyways, if anyone's got any idea about the Aussie birds I'd be most interested to know.

All for now, Ron

Offline SupersonicMax

    is back home.

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 87,495
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,901
Re: CF-188 Hornet, Canada's jet fighter
« Reply #474 on: April 02, 2019, 23:31:03 »
Single Seats will be 1880XX and two-seaters will be 1881XX.  They essentially keep the last 3 numbers of the Ausie tail numbers (A21-YXX where Y is 0 for single seat and 1 for two-seaters).