Author Topic: Calling Up Reserve Troops  (Read 5967 times)

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Offline NSmedicman

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Calling Up Reserve Troops
« on: October 24, 2005, 21:17:59 »
How easily can Reserve troops be called up for domestic or other operations? It seems to me that the Americans can call up their reservists and National Guard whenever they see fit (Iraq, Afghanistan, Hurricane Katrina). I know that in the past here (Ice storms in Quebec, Hurricane Juan in Nova Scotia) they have called for volunteers to deploy in support of domestic operations. What would it take for reserves to be ordered to deploy? Can that really be done so easily here?
"The greatest supporters of peace are those who are sworn to risk their lives when war occurs".

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Offline geo

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Re: Calling Up Reserve Troops
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2005, 21:49:14 »
last time that was done was 1939.....
Chimo!

Offline geo

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Re: Calling Up Reserve Troops
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2005, 21:54:17 »
nsmedicineman...
let's face it, during the icestorm a lot of reserve troops activated and participated.... then again, the universities, colleges, Highschools, offices and factories were shut down so these guys were available.... hell, the only other thing these guys coulda done was chop wood at home to stoke the home fires.... so lots of reservists participated... but the moment power was restored and the factory whistle blew.... bye, bye - gotta go, it's been a slice.

Gov't has to provide job security.... and the US gov't is finding out right now that, after 4 years of Reserve & National Guard activations - it ain't that easy to fill those ranks anymore..... The Gov't had decided to distribute the CSS trades to the Reserves & NG.... and now they're having that decision come back and bite them on the A#$
Chimo!

Offline Spanky

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Re: Calling Up Reserve Troops
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2005, 22:03:51 »
Oh I don't know about that geo.  There was a lot of power in my neighbourhod.  All the factories were running and schools were open.  I had to make a deal with my emloyer to get the time off work.  I was (am) a teacher.  Any money I made from the army was given back to my employer to help cover the costs of replacing me.  We were sent home after two weeks because we were no longer needed as things were at a level where the local authorities could manage without us.  To a man we were down about leaving as we knew there were still people without power etc.
I personally resent your implications.
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Offline NSmedicman

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Re: Calling Up Reserve Troops
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2005, 23:24:45 »
I knew that the last time it happened was for the Second World War. So....and long story short....other than a MAJOR conflict somewhere in the world......not a chance in ......well.....you know.... ;D
"The greatest supporters of peace are those who are sworn to risk their lives when war occurs".

- Gen. Charles Krulak, 31st commandant, USMC

Offline geo

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Re: Calling Up Reserve Troops
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2005, 08:26:20 »
Spanky,
don't get me wrong,
the reservists that went "home" after services started to come back on line did not necessarily want to go back... they needed to go back.
Many tried to negociate time off... not everyone was fortunate to have an understanding employer.... and there is no legislation to protect the reservist from being fired.

Note that this was not intended as an oportunity for Reserve bashing;
a hefty chunk of my career has been as a reservist - I believe strongly in what we/they do
Chimo!

Offline x-grunt

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Re: Calling Up Reserve Troops
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2005, 09:37:42 »
Any money I made from the army was given back to my employer to help cover the costs of replacing me.  

I have to ask...does this mean you ended up without any income for that period? That sucks. And I think that's worth sending a letter to your MP and the MND about. Good example of the need for job security. You shouldn't have to work for free because your employer grabs your Res pay as a penalty.

Offline Whiskey_Dan

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Re: Calling Up Reserve Troops
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2005, 17:41:37 »
I have to ask...does this mean you ended up without any income for that period? That sucks. And I think that's worth sending a letter to your MP and the MND about. Good example of the need for job security. You shouldn't have to work for free because your employer grabs your Res pay as a penalty.

That's true, since the school didn't have to pay your normal wage, why would they punish you even more by taking back the pay the army gave you as well?
I know it costs about $190/day here in BC for a substitute teachers, but that's still about $100 less then what it costs for a full time teacher, since the school would save that much while you were away, why'd they take your army pay too? It seems the school basically made money off of you while you were off serving your country?? That to me seems absolutely horrendous.

Offline geo

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Re: Calling Up Reserve Troops
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2005, 17:54:48 »
There are some "good" employers (usually DND Contractors) who will give you the time off AND pay you the difference between your DND pay and your "real" work pay

There are some "decent" employers who will try to give you the time you need, will try to work around to permit you to do your DND work.

There are some "lousy" employers who don't want to hear anything about your giving any of your time to anyone but them. If you have to go on course, tough.

Funny part is that DND itself often falls in the latter category. Reservists on class B are prevented from going on their career courses (though policy says they must).
Chimo!

Offline Spanky

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Re: Calling Up Reserve Troops
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2005, 19:19:59 »
It wasn't as bad as it sounded.  The board, I think did lose some money.  The arrangement was very fair.  They actually gave me time off with pay, so giving them some money back was very fair.  Since they did not know what I made army-wise, I only gave them what I made on the weekdays, after taxes.  ;D

Thanks for clearing that up geo.
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Offline Whiskey_Dan

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Re: Calling Up Reserve Troops
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2005, 01:58:10 »
It wasn't as bad as it sounded.   The board, I think did lose some money.   The arrangement was very fair.   They actually gave me time off with pay, so giving them some money back was very fair.   Since they did not know what I made army-wise, I only gave them what I made on the weekdays, after taxes.   ;D

Oh ok, thanks for clearing that one up!

Offline pbi

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Re: Calling Up Reserve Troops
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2005, 12:58:37 »
" Reservists on class B are prevented from going on their career courses (though policy says they must)."

This may be a bit of a broad statement: I think that actually it depends very much on the unit. For example, (although I am no longer there...) in 38 CBG HQ as recently as June we had a very clear policy that Class B Res staff would always go on career courses they needed to progress as officers and NCMs, even if we had to go short to let them. Making Class B service a career dead-end for Res soldiers is stupid and does nothing for the quality of the people you will get/retain.

Cheers.
The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. ...

The true measure of a man is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out...

Offline CTD

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Re: Calling Up Reserve Troops
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2005, 13:55:48 »
I disagree with saying that a employer is lousy if they don't allow you time off for training, course's or a deployment. Face it they need to make money to live. You make them that money, if you up and leave every few months that affects them to the point of not wanting you any more. (unless you posses skills they need and cant get else where). You made the choice to be in the Reserves and also have a civie job. Although it would be nice to have some form of job protection, with all the course cancellation's and the to bad the tour is cancelled for you guys, how would that work. Your employer would be left hanging. Not a good situtation for you. I have seen it happen a few times.

 It is to bad not only for the employee but also the employer. Time is money and money is time in civie world. THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE. Until a disaster affects them directly it is hard for them to justify the time off.They don't have the luxury to post pone making money like the military can post pone courses and such. It is a tread lightly topic.

Offline geo

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Re: Calling Up Reserve Troops
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2005, 14:08:09 »
pbi.... You';re talking about reservists being managed by reservists.
I'm talking about a reservist working with 5Bde (though other Reg Bdes are similar)

CTD... with respect to Lousy employers... am not talking about ones who say do whatever you want on your own time. I have seen employers go all nice and soft on employees who have broken their leg on a skiing holliday.... and then grow horns when the reservist comes back from his weekend ex (or milcon) with same broken leg....
I have worked for a living on class A, B and Reg - I have been gainfuly employed in senior managerial positions for companies that make money (no - not the mint) I have seen both sides of the coin... and there are lousy employers out there.
Chimo!

Offline Michael Dorosh

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Re: Calling Up Reserve Troops
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2005, 15:42:59 »
last time that was done was 1939.....

You had me confused there, but you're right - on the 25th of August, Militia units were mobilized for "local protective duties."  The creation of the Canadian Active Service Force, however, wouldn't be what I would characterize as a "calling up of the reserves" as no one was compelled to serve.  My understanding is it was analagous to the raising of the CEF in 1914 - a seperate field force of volunteers, from civil life, the Militia, and the Permanent Force.

Even then, however, weren't the local mobilizations in August voluntary in nature?
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Offline Bloggins

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Re: Calling Up Reserve Troops
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2005, 16:05:38 »
Calling the reserves to active service can only be accomplished by an act of Parliament. What was previously called the war measures act (ref FLQ crisis) now I am not sure what it is called. At any rate the Govt has to have declared war or marshall law to mobilize the reserve complete. At any other time service is voluntary. When the Americans mobilize or deploy the national guard. The unit they have selected already has whatever equipment it needs in order to pick up and go. Anything mission specific can be acquired en route or in theatre. And within the U.S military there is a logistical Juggernaut to take care of them so its move now deduct money from whatever budget latter. Within the CF NDHQ has decided that from now on part of the force generation program will have 20% of each task force reserve. So in the mounting instruction issued by the VCDS there will be provisions for reserve sub-units and individual agumentees. As well truth be told the primary reserve is starved for pers equipment, weapons, vehicles and CSS. And on the other side of the house the regular force is to a lesser extent in the same boat. The CFTPO now not only tasks people but equipment as well. before any Canadian unit can leave its home station equipment, personnel and logistics have to be sorted out. And of course budgit for pay of agumentees, claims and equipment after its traded hands three times. The members of the reserve will be where they're told and when just without the kit.

Cheers.
 :cdn:
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Offline Teddy Ruxpin

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Re: Calling Up Reserve Troops
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2005, 16:33:20 »
Calling the reserves to active service can only be accomplished by an act of Parliament. What was previously called the war measures act (ref FLQ crisis) now I am not sure what it is called. At any rate the Govt has to have declared war or marshall law to mobilize the reserve complete. At any other time service is voluntary. When the Americans mobilize or deploy the national guard. The unit they have selected already has whatever equipment it needs in order to pick up and go. Anything mission specific can be acquired en route or in theatre. And within the U.S military there is a logistical Juggernaut to take care of them so its move now deduct money from whatever budget latter. Within the CF NDHQ has decided that from now on part of the force generation program will have 20% of each task force reserve. So in the mounting instruction issued by the VCDS there will be provisions for reserve sub-units and individual agumentees. As well truth be told the primary reserve is starved for pers equipment, weapons, vehicles and CSS. And on the other side of the house the regular force is to a lesser extent in the same boat. The CFTPO now not only tasks people but equipment as well. before any Canadian unit can leave its home station equipment, personnel and logistics have to be sorted out. And of course budgit for pay of agumentees, claims and equipment after its traded hands three times. The members of the reserve will be where they're told and when just without the kit.

Cheers.
 :cdn:

This is not quite correct.  Reserves (individual or units) are called up by Order in Council - a cabinet order - rather than an Act of Parliament.  This means that, essentially, call out of the Reserves is a Cabinet decision.  Moreover, Reserves can be called up at any time - not simply during a declared war or an emergency.  The Emergency Measures Act (the old War Measures Act) has little to do with it.

Missions may have up to 20% Reserve "content", but that's a guideline, not a hard and fast rule.  It's also not new - the 20% figure has been in place for many years.  It is only recently, though, that it has been formalized as CLS (not DCDS) mission guidance.  Mounting instructions are issued by the Army as the force generator against a requirement determined by the DCDS as the CF operations officer.

Cheers,

Teddy
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Dulce bellum inexpertis.

Offline pbi

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Re: Calling Up Reserve Troops
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2005, 09:32:53 »
pbi.... You';re talking about reservists being managed by reservists.
I'm talking about a reservist working with 5Bde (though other Reg Bdes are similar)

Actually, I was the Chief of Staff: the HQ CO was a Reservist. The Branch Heads were a mix of Regular and Reserve. I have noted that where Res Class B are managed cdirectly by Res (ie the Class B in a Res battalion) there can be a very strict, unimaginative approach, that often refklects a unit-level mistrust and dislike of Class B "traitors" or "Uncle Toms". But again, that all depends on the CO. Most RegF COs I know would send a Res Class B on a career course under the same policies that they would for a Regular soldier: as long as operational necessity does not prevent. Most Res Class B are not with units long enough for this to become an issue.

Again, however, I c an speak only from my own knowledge. I just didn't want what appeared to be a broad brush statement to go by.

Cheers.

« Last Edit: October 30, 2005, 12:09:39 by Infanteer »
The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. ...

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Offline geo

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Re: Calling Up Reserve Troops
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2005, 08:10:57 »
pbi,
NP, I was talking about a couple of specific instances.
A Res MCpl who was on an extended ClB at CISQ (LFQA cbt arms school)
he needed his 6As and the course was only offered every other year. the School took the position that they needed their position filled and that if said MCpl wanted to go on his course, good & fine, but they needed a warm body in that position and consequently, they would have to hire someone else & there was no guarantee said MCpl would have a job at the end of his course.... quite the dilema... for him
Chimo!

Offline Hatchet Man

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Re: Calling Up Reserve Troops
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2005, 08:48:29 »
While doing some web surfing, I discovered that the policy for those employed directly by the city of Toronto (not including, police, fire TTC), that members of the reserve are allowed two weeks of paid leave for reserve training, however they have to payback all compensentation received from the army to city if they are on leave during a period they were scheduled to work.  I think policies like this are unfair and are meant to discourage one from going on leave (kinda like dangling a carrot on stick, you can have the leave however there is a catch), especially if you would be making more working those two weeks with the army (although thats kinda hard now what with the large salary increases the city unions got in this round of contracts).

Offline geo

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Re: Calling Up Reserve Troops
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2005, 10:10:22 »
While doing some web surfing, I discovered that the policy for those employed directly by the city of Toronto (not including, police, fire TTC), that members of the reserve are allowed two weeks of paid leave for reserve training, however they have to payback all compensentation received from the army to city if they are on leave during a period they were scheduled to work.   I think policies like this are unfair and are meant to discourage one from going on leave (kinda like dangling a carrot on stick, you can have the leave however there is a catch), especially if you would be making more working those two weeks with the army (although thats kinda hard now what with the large salary increases the city unions got in this round of contracts).

Hatchetman.... it says two weeks of "PAID LEAVE"... meaning that you get your better city salary while you are doing your reserve thing..... what's wrong with that?

If you are away and you happen to be getting a higher salary while you are away (doubt it - but I guess it's possible) ... have it recorded as "leave without pay"... I think what is important is that the company allows for you to go, keeps your job station warm for you & ensures that your seniority does not get affected by your regular & ongoing requests for leave....

Some companies say it differently; they will cover the difference between you regularly earn & what you got paid while you were away (pay stubs proving same)

I think that it's great - would have loved to have had that kind of chance with some of my employers back then.
Chimo!

Offline Hatchet Man

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Re: Calling Up Reserve Troops
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2005, 10:36:49 »
Nothing is wrong with paid leave except that the city expects you to handover the money the army is going to pay you.

Offline Lance Wiebe

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Re: Calling Up Reserve Troops
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2005, 10:59:22 »
During the FLQ crisis, I was in the Reserves.  While we were not activated, we were placed on one hour notice to move.  Which meant we had to have our gear with us all the time, and had to leave phone numbers with the duty officer whenever we went somewhere.  This situation lasted for about a week, then we were stood down.

It certainly created a lot of discussion at our work places and schools!  Actually, I think we lost quite a few people from the Reserves then, as people started realizing the responsibilities they had assumed when signing on the line.

I think it was an automatic drill, when Trudeau invoked the War Measures Act, we were automatically placed on alert.  I'm not 100% sure of that, however, it may have been some local big wig that did it, but I don't think so.

I realize that this is a sidetrack of the original topic, but I thought I would add a bit more information for anyone interested.   :)
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Offline Monsoon

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Re: Calling Up Reserve Troops
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2005, 11:05:49 »
Nothing is wrong with paid leave except that the city expects you to handover the money the army is going to pay you.
It's called "topping up" and the CFLC actually encourages employers to do it.  It's not reasonable to ask employers to pay someone's full salary for a couple of weeks a year so that they can go work somewhere else, but it is within their ability to pay the difference between your salary and your military pay so that you don't need to take a pay cut to volunteer in the CF.  Where I work, I can barely take unpaid time off to go on contract for a couple of weeks.

Offline geo

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Re: Calling Up Reserve Troops
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2005, 11:23:16 »
Nothing is wrong with paid leave except that the city expects you to handover the money the army is going to pay you.
but at that same time.... they continue to pay you 100% of your regular salary
Chimo!