Author Topic: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)  (Read 518921 times)

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Offline little jim

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Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)
« on: October 26, 2005, 07:10:44 »
FYI

CANFORGEN 163/05 DCDS 146 211540Z OCT 05
CANSOFCOM SENIOR APPOINTMENTS
UNCLASSIFIED



ON BEHALF OF THE COMMANDER CANADIAN SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCES COMMAND (CANSOFCOM), I AM PLEASED TO ANNOUNCE THE FOLLOWING KEY APPOINTMENTS FOR CANSOFCOM UNITS(READ IN FOUR COLUMNS: UNIT, POSITION, NAME, EFFECTIVE DATE)

CO DESIGNATE APPOINTMENT:

JOINT ACTION TASK FORCE(JATF), CO, LCOL insert name, IMMEDIATELY

CWO APPOINTMENTS:


CANSOFCOM CWO, CWO  insert name, , EFF 1 JAN 07


JATF, RSM DESIGNATE, MWO  insert name, , IMMEDIATELY


CANSOFCOM IS THE RECENTLY ANNOUNCED COMMAND WHICH WILL BRING TOGETHER EXISTING SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCES UNDER A UNIFIED COMMAND AS WELL AS DEVELOP FUTURE SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCES. ONE OF THESE FUTURE FORCES IS THE JOINT ACTION TASK FORCE. THIS HIGHLY TRAINED AND MOBILE BATTALION SIZED FORCE WILL SUPPORT SPECIAL OPERATIONS ACTIVITIES BOTH DOMESTICALLY AND ABROAD


DCDS CONGRATULATES THE APPOINTED MEMBRS
« Last Edit: September 14, 2006, 16:31:10 by Mike Bobbitt »

Offline Old Sweat

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Re: JATF
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2005, 14:13:28 »
Note that the CANSOFCOM CWO is appointed effective 1 Jan 07. Could this be an error? Watch and shoot.

Offline Mark C

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Re: JATF
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2005, 14:44:16 »
The creation of CANSOFCOM and the subordinate JATF are definitely moving ahead at a rapid rate, as indicated by the announcement of Comd and RSM appointments for both organizations.   CANSOFCOM is to be functional by Feb 06, as is the case with CEFCOM, etc.   The officer and Sr NCO leadership of JATF will stand-up in APS 06, with the bulk of the unit postings occurring between APS 06 and 07.   

The creation of JATF is not a "smoke and mirrors" excercise.   The new unit is a high-priority capability that will definitely be formed sooner rather than later.   Unfortunately, in the short term this will undoubtedly occur at the expense of manpower within the existing Cbt A units - specifically the nine infantry battalions.   The experienced soldiers for the JATF (which will have an establishment larger than any existing battalion) have to come from somewhere.   Starting with the several hundred officers and Sr NCO positions that are designated to be filled by next summer.

It will be interesting to see if our problematic recruiting system can increase national intake and throughput to alleviate the resultant manpower shortage that the stand-up of the JATF will create within existing units.   Not to sound pessimistic, but I harbour serious doubts given the fact that the system cannot even recruit to meet attrition, let alone bring our exisitng units up to authorized strength.   I predict that some of our existing units (eg.   those in "low readiness") will be reduced to skeleton organizations.   The current manning shortfalls cannot help but get worse before they get better.   

There is detailed information regarding precise personnel numbers, unit composition and IOC/FOC timelines floating around on the DIN for those who have access and know who to ask.   Since that information it is not "open source", OPSEC precludes its dissemination here.   I for one, will not divulge any further information regarding the JATF and would caution others with that info to do the same.   Details of the JATF application and selection process will be released in further CANFORGENs as events unfold.   Once released in the public domain, I am sure that the information will find its way here.   Until then, I would suggest that rampant speculation regarding the new unit is utterly pointless and potentially counter-productive.        

All things considered, despite the inherent manning challenges associated with the creation of CANSOFCOM and the JATF this is an exciting capability development for our Army.   Once again, we are about to have a highly trained battalion-sized organization that the fittest and keenest soldiers can aspire to without having to possess the very specific attributes required for service in JTF 2.                  
« Last Edit: October 26, 2005, 15:34:21 by Mark C »

Offline Mark C

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Re: JATF
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2005, 14:52:28 »
Note that the CANSOFCOM CWO is appointed effective 1 Jan 07. Could this be an error? Watch and shoot.

The CANSOFCOM CWO designate is currently serving as the RSM of another unit.  The Jan 07 posting date is most likely a reflection of his earliest availability for a formal transfer of appointment.  Suffice it to say that the individual in question is currently employed in a place where he can likely fulfill both roles as CANSOFCOM HQ stands up.

Offline Old Sweat

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Re: JATF
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2005, 15:30:39 »
Mark C

Thank you very much. Your posts have cleared things up a bit, and raised some interesting points to ponder. I am sure this is just the start of a long and interesting debate, along with the odd emotional response and periodic posts by the ninjettes lurking out there.

Offline Infanteer

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Re: JATF
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2005, 20:31:47 »
Why not bring back the CAR to give us a true light infantry capability and let the mech battalions focus on being mech infantry instead of flopping between being mounted and 'equipment-constrained'?

Better yet, let the armoured focus on the vehicles, let the line infantry focus on the wide-array of Light Forces tasks and let JATF assume it's proper role as a "Tier III" SOC-unit.  -This- is what the Aussies are doing when you look at how their various armoured units, the RAR and 4RAR function.

Quote
Then again, the Aussies are doing the same sort of thing. Oh well, what do I know.

Precisely, I think the Aussies serve as a good example to show that we have the "critical mass" to do this if we properly sustain our existing units.  The only difficulty we have is not to fumble the ball in the middle of such a high-tempo time while we are at war (remember that part) and mess it up.
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline Cool Breeze

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Re: JATF
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2005, 21:24:13 »
This sounds really really cool, hopefully things will work out successfully sooner rather than later. This is exactly the type of unit the Canadian Army needs - something to bridge the gap between your conventional infantry and special forces - commandos if you will. I do hope however that we have the equipment to support such an outfit such as the airlift (I'm just assuming they'll be jump capable), have the helicopters they need, and hopefully these large amphibious assault ships with landing craft we're thinking of getting. And hopefully we also get those sooner rather than later. :salute: :cdn:
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Offline devil39

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Re: JATF
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2005, 21:29:16 »
As I stated on another thread:

In view of the latest on this "transformational" piece, in my humble opinion this is the best thing our CF could be doing at this point.

Congratulations to all involved.

The army will survive this and be stronger for it in the long term.  Certainly the infantry battalions will bear the brunt of this.  Sort the recruiting and training out for the backfills and let us get on with this. 

Absolutely the best thing to come out of the transformation of the CF.

Offline Rusty Shackleford

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Re: JATF
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2005, 21:48:26 »
The recruiting system is not the problem, the lack of training facilities is.   You tell the recruiting system what you want and they will get it for you, but you should be ready and able to train what you get.   Three years ago the recruiting system was told to recruit techs, they recruited so many that PRETC had to be created to hold them because the training system could not cope.   Today, the training system still can't cope because it has not been enlarged to handle the numbers that were recruited.   The result is hundreds of troops with BMQ waiting for months/years for pre-requisite and occupational training.

There are many applicants waiting for Cbt Arms, some wait for months for an offer, that tells me that the training system can't keep up with recruiting.
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Offline GO!!!

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Re: JATF
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2005, 21:52:10 »
I think there is more than enough blame to go around for both the Recruiting Centers and the Trg system.

My suggestion to fix those problems is simple.

The current reason given by the army (not too sure about the AF and Navy) is that there is a dire shortage of qualified instructors. I think that a major reason for the lack of instructors is that so many instructors are loathe to be posted to miserable ****holes like Wainwright and Shilo. This means that many of the instructors posted to the schools will quit, just to avoid moving there.

If the schools were co - located with the units they fed, there would be no shortage of qualified instructors, and whole units could be tasked to run coy size battle schools.

Before the old argument about maintenance of standards is trotted out as an opposition to any resources being denied to the schools, in my experience, the battalions have higher standards in everything that is assessed (with the possible exception of drill), so let them train the people that will be coming to their own units.

This appears to be what will happen with the JATF, with instructors also forming the basis of the unit, and being co - located with the trg system for it.

Thoughts?
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Offline Tracker 23A

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Re: JATF
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2005, 22:09:55 »
Mark C and Go!!!:

Good comments and a good illustration on the pros and cons of the creation and existence of such a unit.  Nonetheless, we can look forward to a good future in the Infantry because of it.

Its about time.

Offline Infanteer

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Re: JATF
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2005, 22:24:48 »
If the schools were co - located with the units they fed, there would be no shortage of qualified instructors, and whole units could be tasked to run coy size battle schools.
\

Nice idea.

Training Platoon as part of Admin Coy.  Give a Platoon Commander and Warrant (and the NCO's) their students and let them train them up to snuff.  Load them on a bus and go to Wainwright or whereever for the field exs.  After graduation, fill in the empty spots with Corporals, and viola - trained platoon.
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline Rider Pride

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Re: JATF
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2005, 22:48:29 »
Mark C and Go!!!:

Good comments and a good illustration on the pros and cons of the creation and existence of such a unit.   Nonetheless, we can look forward to a good future in the Infantry because of it.

Its about time.

Not just the infantry, but all arms, CS and certain CSS as well.
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Offline Haggis

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Re: JATF
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2005, 06:36:08 »
If the schools were co - located with the units they fed, there would be no shortage of qualified instructors, and whole units could be tasked to run coy size battle schools.

Before the old argument about maintenance of standards is trotted out as an opposition to any resources being denied to the schools, in my experience, the battalions have higher standards in everything that is assessed (with the possible exception of drill), so let them train the people that will be coming to their own units.

You mean like it was done back in "the day"?  :-[

I daresay the standard of drill on my RCR QL3 was at least as high as that on the Hill (the big Hill, .... not the "Hooded Hill").  If not, it certainly felt that way at the time....
Train like your life depends on it.  Some day, it may.

Offline signalsguy

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Re: JATF
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2005, 07:30:27 »
FYI all the sig units around the country have been asked for volunteers for the HQ and to provide troops for the JATF. The HQ positions are open immediately with more to come in APS 06, with the JATF stuff coming sometime later. All rank levels from Cpl to MWO.

Offline ArmyVern

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Re: JATF
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2005, 08:02:00 »
FYI all the sig units around the country have been asked for volunteers for the HQ and to provide troops for the JATF. The HQ positions are open immediately with more to come in APS 06, with the JATF stuff coming sometime later. All rank levels from Cpl to MWO.
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Offline pbi

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Re: JATF
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2005, 09:14:39 »
I If the schools were co - located with the units they fed, there would be no shortage of qualified instructors, and whole units could be tasked to run coy size battle schools.

Before the old argument about maintenance of standards is trotted out as an opposition to any resources being denied to the schools, in my experience, the battalions have higher standards in everything that is assessed (with the possible exception of drill), so let them train the people that will be coming to their own units.
Thoughts?

I have come to be a big believer in devolved training, especially as a result of my experiences in 38 CBG. To me (and to other "believers") "one standard" does not mean "one school". Let me offer a parallel:

In Ontario, there is one law governing the professional standards of doctors. The consequences of error for doctors are: death, injury and suffering, as well as severe financial loss. However, Ontario does not run one single medical school: it runs several. 'One standard" does not mean "one school".

What is needed is not to drag thousands of students and instructors around the country every year: instead, have a smaller (but still adequate) standards inspection and maintenance force, with strong powers and backed up by the chain of command. We have achieved this to some degree in the Army Reserve with the Bde Standards dets (we had three in 38 CBG) but I think it could be made stronger still, and expanded to better permit devolved training by Reg Bdes. Do the training locally: move the Standards people around. To a certain extent this is happening now.

As well, I think our slow (but gradually accelerating) adoption of Distributed Learning (ie: on-line learning to replace sitting in a classroom three hundred miles away...) will help us down the path to devolved training.

It will take work, vigilance, and some dink-slapping of slackers to make this work, but I believe it is achievable.


Cheers.
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Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: JATF
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2005, 10:02:56 »
They are looking for NavComm volunteers too,  as there aren't enought sig ops to fill all the positions.

Offline pbi

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Re: JATF
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2005, 09:24:57 »
I expect to hear a briefing on SOG and probably on JATF as well in the next week or so. If there are UNCLAS parts, I will try to offer them here if that is appropriate.

Cheers.
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Offline a_beautiful_tragedy

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Re: JATF
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2005, 11:38:53 »
So with only 9 regular force infantry battalions we are making a new SF Battalion AND expanding JTF2 to around 600 troops?

Where in the name of the good lord are we going to find the troops? Lets say we have 8000 reg force infantry types and what....1000-1200 SF types with these new units....thats 15% of our total infantry types being 'SF'. Isn't that a little high?

Methinks that for all the good he has done, our CDS is on a 'SF High' so to say. We don't really have the troops (or the need) for so many SF types in an army our size. Why not bring back the CAR to give us a true light infantry capability and let the mech battalions focus on being mech infantry instead of flopping between being mounted and 'equipment-constrained'?

Then again, the Aussies are doing the same sort of thing. Oh well, what do I know.


thats all very true and are very good points which i agree with
dont you think though, that if this does happen which it will, the recruiting numbers will go up ?
because even i have talked to people asking them how come they never joined ?, and the majority of answers are " we dont see combat", yes thats a bit sad but it is true todays kids want to see combat especially with all the newer age movies (black hawk down and the new jar head movie) and the iraq war which are feeding there combat desires.
so with jtf2 and unit to support them, chances of our country getting into thicker mud will be more likley. And of course this will be on the ctv, cbc, etc. so all the younger adults will see this as their "new" chance to see combat...and probably enlist.  :cdn:

Offline Infanteer

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Re: JATF
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2005, 15:47:04 »
People need to quit making this out to be the death of the line Army.  There are 9 infantry battalions in the Army - JTAF will be a single unit.  This means roughly a platoon from each.  Are you expecting the loss of 35 guys to bleed all of our units dry?  The other 500-600 should be capable of doing a good job in the line battalions; it'll most likely be reinforced by SOC-qualified soldiers coming back to battalion.  We seemed to do alright with 9 when the Airborne Regiment was up and running.

As well, there is nothing wrong with somebody joining with aspirations of going higher; the US thrives off of these types (hence the Ranger, 18X, and SEAL direct contracts) - sure, you'll attract some wieners, but offering a High Speed, Low Drag capability will get good guys in the door who may not have otherwise payed attention to the Forces.
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline Infanteer

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Re: JATF
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2005, 16:01:03 »
I'm not sure what the Liberal Party has to do with this?
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline MCG

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Re: JATF
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2005, 17:07:42 »
I expect to hear a briefing on SOG and probably on JATF as well in the next week or so. If there are UNCLAS parts, I will try to offer them here if that is appropriate.
That would be appreciated.  Likely lay to rest some rumour & speculation while your at it.

Offline Infanteer

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Re: JATF
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2005, 17:28:32 »
Gov't in general. Not trying to turn this into a partisan discussion, but alright. Lets try this.

You're overanalyzing and confusing capabilities.  We're not treading new ground here.  Read some material to get a better idea of the JATF context.

http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/engraph/vol5/no3/Special_e.asp

http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/engraph/vol5/no3/Special2_e.asp

http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/engraph/vol5/no3/Special3_e.asp

http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/engraph/vol5/no3/Special4_e.asp
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline paracowboy

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Re: JATF
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2005, 19:18:02 »
it ain't the death of line infantry in general, or light infantry, specifically. But it will make us sicker in the short term. And we're already pretty ill. As pointed out so eloquently by Mark C.

With the need to fill the new unit with senior pers rapidly, we're going to lose even more of our experienced troops and leaders, leaving a capability gap in the existing units. As new troops come from the Battle Schools (or whatever they're being called now), they won't have anybody to teach them how to soldier. My biggest fear is another drop in Standards to get enough bodies in slots.

It's a good thing in the long run, but it's going to be pure hell in the short term.
Can't wait to see what's gonna happen.
...time to cull the herd.