Topic: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)

[signalsguy]

Has anyone who volunteered heard anything yet?

The posting messages for the CANSOFCOMHQ positions seem to be coming out.

[Haggis]

Has anyone who volunteered heard anything yet?

Probably not.  Para 7 states that the deadline for applications is 30 Dec so don't expect any movement before then.

Also these Reserve positions are for the HQs, not the CSOR or SCTF or any other high-speed/low drag units that may fall out of this..

[Cool Breeze]

What is the likelyhood that this becomes the Canadian Parachute Regiment under a Conservative government?

I know I shouldn't say this but what the heck I'm in the holiday mood. I like the current name as it better describes the new unit's role as a special forces outfit as compared to a conventional airborne infantry unit but it would make me really happy if we got both a Special Operations Regiment AND a Parachute Regiment. What do you think, good Christmas present or what?

[Tracker 23A]

I know I shouldn't say this but what the heck I'm in the holiday mood. I like the current name as it better describes the new unit's role as a special forces outfit as compared to a conventional airborne infantry unit but it would make me really happy if we got both a Special Operations Regiment AND a Parachute Regiment. What do you think, good Christmas present or what?

The CSOR will be special operations capable, not special forces.

Such as the Green Berets are the US Army's special forces, the US Army Rangers are their special operations capable affiliate.

[SF2]

most assume the two are one in the same.....

do you have a defintion for both?

[MedCorps]

Ah... but CSOR will have a "Special Forces" Company (the "4th" coy... 1-3 being Direct Action Coys, and the "5th" Coy being Sp Coy).   I wonder what this SF Coy is all about? 

Hmm...

MC 

[Tracker 23A]

most assume the two are one in the same.....

do you have a defintion for both?

Special Operations Capable (SOC), is a rapidly deployable airborne capable light infantry unit organized and trained to conduct highly complex joint direct action operations in coordination with or in support of other special operations units, such as JTF 2. They are also able to execute direct action operations in support of conventional operations and can operate as conventional light infantry.

whereas:

Special Forces are those forces organized, trained, and equipped to conduct special operations with an emphasis on unconventional warfare capabilities.

[Tracker 23A]

Special Operations Capable (SOC), is a rapidly deployable airborne capable light infantry unit organized and trained to conduct highly complex joint direct action operations in coordination with or in support of other special operations units, such as JTF 2. They are also able to execute direct action operations in support of conventional operations and can operate as conventional light infantry.

whereas:

Special Forces are those forces organized, trained, and equipped to conduct special operations with an emphasis on unconventional warfare capabilities.  They are relatively small military units raised and trained for special operations missions such as Special Reconnaissance (SR), Unconventional Warfare (UW), Direct Action (DA), Terrorism (T), Counter-Terrorism (CT), and Foreign Internal Defense (FID).

These are the DoD definitions of these terms.

[Cool Breeze]

Thanks for the clarification. What about special forces and special operations forces? The CSOR has been labelled as a special operations force. Are SOF the same as SOC? I always thought that special forces and special operations forces were the same thing, though I may have read a thing or two somewhere that said otherwise, but according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_forces, SF and SOF seem to be the same. I figured that the US military was one that used the term SOF to describe all their "special" elite units because the term "Special Forces" was already used by, well, US Army Special Forces and we being Canada next door just decided to follow suit while other countries such as the UK used the term special forces as they don't actually have any units specifically called "special forces" like the US does. On the JTF2 webpage the term special operations force is used and I figured well JTF2 was just as much a special forces unit as any Green Beret unit so I went from there. Whew I don't think I've said the word "special" so many times in a post. In the end I guess they're all special in some way or other. Anyways thanks for the definitions on SF and SOC.

[Good2Golf]

Wikipedia sometimes has some hiccups.  I think most in the fold will agree that SOF and SF are not the same thing.  SOF is considered to be a more specialized force both in terms of capabilities and in employment.  Special forces, while quite capable in their own right, are generally a larger force supporting SOF or conducting operations on their own in support of more generic combat forces.

Ex of SOF: Element of 22SAS, JTF2, SFOD(D), DEVGRP, TAG1(I think 1 is, AUS SOF)
Ex of SF: Para, Rangers, Green Berets, Marine Recon, Spetznaz, TAG2(AUS SF, I think I got the 1-2 thing right)

I've probably got the Aussie TAG's mixed up or something, but I think that's the general idea (of course, corrections to all above are invited)

As well, I've only seen SOC to refer to a unit's capabilities, as in a spec ops-capable unit.  An example would be a spec ops-capable Marine Expeditionary Unit, or MEUSOC.

Cheers,
Duey

[Kilo_302]

sup everyone
 just signed up for the board.

Anyways, does anyone have any more specific info on the role that the SF Coy will play in CSOR. To me it would appear that with the creation of this unit, JTF2 will be reserved for domestic/international CT, VIP protection and other strategic missions. The SF Coy on the other hand would be akin to something like the US Green Berets, and be responsible for other green ops. Obviously that would mean the Direct Action Coys role would be somewhat similar to the US Army Rangers. The only problem I see here is the fact that the Army has such small human resources to draw from to support all these different roles. Regular recce units have sent 4 man patrols into the mountains in Aghanistan, begging the question do we really need the SF coy? Wouldnt small patrols from the Direct Action Coys, or JTF2 suffice? Of course, this is assuming we are using the US army model for SOC/SF units. I have read some interesting posts about 4 RAR working with ASASR, but does 4 RAR have a specialized SF Coy like we are creating? Are there any similar units in the world? Or is this just a question of labels ( is the SF Coy more of a pathfinder unit for a new Airborne Regiment )At least Canadian soldiers will now have more rungs on the ladder to climb 

A secondary question. Do you guys think that at least the SF Coy will have access to a greater variety kit like JTF2 does, or do you think they still stick to standard CF issue? Anyone care to speculate?

[Bubbles]

Is there a possibility that this 'SF Coy' within the CSOR could perhaps be a JTF-2 squadron/coy/unit that rotates through the regiment on a managed readiness basis?

 It would make sense in terms of logistics, training, organization, and manpower shortages.

Just a thought...

[baboon6]

Wikipedia sometimes has some hiccups.  I think most in the fold will agree that SOF and SF are not the same thing.  SOF is considered to be a more specialized force both in terms of capabilities and in employment.  Special forces, while quite capable in their own right, are generally a larger force supporting SOF or conducting operations on their own in support of more generic combat forces.

Ex of SOF: Element of 22SAS, JTF2, SFOD(D), DEVGRP, TAG1(I think 1 is, AUS SOF)
Ex of SF: Para, Rangers, Green Berets, Marine Recon, Spetznaz, TAG2(AUS SF, I think I got the 1-2 thing right)

I've probably got the Aussie TAG's mixed up or something, but I think that's the general idea (of course, corrections to all above are invited)

As well, I've only seen SOC to refer to a unit's capabilities, as in a spec ops-capable unit.  An example would be a spec ops-capable Marine Expeditionary Unit, or MEUSOC.

Cheers,
Duey

I've never heard those definitions before. The US DOD would define all the units you just mentioned as SOF. SOF really is a term which is mainly used in the States, because as Kev T said "Special Forces" was already taken and couldn't be used as a collective. In most other countries either "special forces" or "special operations" is the overall term for their "SOF" eg in Britain it is UKSF, in Australia it is Aus Special Operations Command (AUSSOCMD), in France COS.

[MCG]

Duey,
I think you are trying to get into the special operations tiering.   Meanings behind "special forces" and "special operations capable" etc vary between nations.   However, as we have run into in other threads, everybody seems to define each tier a little different and nobody has been able to point out a STANAG or CF standard.

Here are two previous times that we've looked at this:
Tier discusion in the JTF thread
Tier discusion in the Airborne Regt vs SOC Bde thread

[Good2Golf]

Duey,
I think you are trying to get into the special operations tiering.  Meanings behind "special forces" and "special operations capable" etc vary between nations.  However, as we have run into in other threads, everybody seems to define each tier a little different and nobody has been able to point out a STANAG or CF standard.

Here are two previous times that we've looked at this:
Tier discusion in the JTF thread
Tier discusion in the Airborne Regt vs SOC Bde thread

Actually MCG, I was trying to avoid it and stay more general, maybe I should've sat back, eaten some popcorn, and wiat for my sentence in my staff job to end....    Yup, I definitely remember the Tier I, II, III discussions before...  If you thought the discussion there was interesting, you should have seen it on 101's EX floor a little while ago...I witnessed a healthy debate on the tiers' definition in front of the CDS and DCDS...

You're absolutely right that there is no one definitive word on SOF, SF, etc... To stay perfectly in my lane, I know that the 160th SOAR(A) guys I've flown with in the past are considered "special ops"...

p.s. So we do Tier I, II but not III (by US def'ns), right?   

Cheers,
Duey

[MCG]

So we do Tier I, II but not III (by US def'ns), right?   

I don't know.  I've even seen conflicting descriptions of US definitions for each of these.

[SF2]

Tier one includes hostage rescue, so yes, we do.

[KevinB]

Tier one includes hostage rescue, so yes, we do.

Well US Tier 1-3 do HR the trick is Tier 1 does National Level of Importance HR.

 US SF Groups can also do HR missions though their primary task is things like FID, SR etc.

Similarily the 75th RR does HR but primarily does DA or as attachments to CAG operates as Delta's outer cordon for their DA's or HR tasks).

Grouping the US SF as a Tier III is unfair, as they have a vast amoutn of specialization in languages (every team members is at least fluent in one addtional language), medicine, etc.   They where the original UW guys and brought the SOF concept to bloom.

[Good2Golf]

ok i know i saw it on here but i couldnt find it again, but !
what was the post about a possible airforce special operations ? something like the 160th SOAR maybe?
thanks 

ABT, the DND internet website CF Transformation Page makes mention of an aviation capability in support of CANSOFCOM (not only domestic, but an internationally deployable capability.)  It would be logical that the CSOR would be eligible for receiving ergular support from this aviation capability.  I can find the DND link, but it is right on the DND opening pages...on the left side, click on CDS, the CDS' splash page has the link to CF Transformation...

Cheers,
Duey

[ArmyRick]

ENOUGH WITH THE BERETS!!!    Maroon, tan or pink, who cares? Its the job these guys do that is really interesting. There will be the three direct action companies and a SF company plus BN HQ and spt coy. Interesting. The SF Coy will have 12 man teams (sounds like a US SF A team?) and the DA Coys will have two 24 man DA Platoons and a larger CBT SPT PL (my guess, heavy weapons, snipers, pathfinders, etc).
The selection criteria sounds good. It will help sort the out the paper ninjas and the real candidates. I predict that this unit in the future will become a major feeder unit for the JTF2.

[Rhodesian]

ARMY RICK,

I gotta agree with you.  It is more important the job they are going to do.  I just wondered where the tan beret thing came from, there are alot of "wannabees" out there.

By the way, just managed to see the army news cast mentioned on page 13.  Col BARR is a good man, almost as good as Col KENWARD.

[The Gues-|-]

(CSOR)
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1_1.asp?id=822

[Rider Pride]

For all of you who are not in the know now, publicly dispersed info via print (Maple Leaf), TV and Video (army news) and electonic article (DND site) will be avail for all in and around the 15 Jan 06 time frame.

Info from the CLS has been diseminating down the chain of command, and those who are in the know are the ones who have to man and plan the intial setup of the unit.

So how about everyone take a breath for Christmas and wait for it.

[SF2]

ok i know i saw it on here but i couldnt find it again, but !
what was the post about a possible airforce special operations ? something like the 160th SOAR maybe?
thanks 

Special Ops aviation has been around in Canada since the early 90's in support of RCMP (450 Sqn in Ottawa), and still to this day (a certain small group at 427 Sqn), so its nothing new.
DueyT, you might know me from the 'other site' as 427FO....co-worker of Switchmonkey.

For the guy who mentioned SOG - SOG is CANSOFCOM - the reason for the change was, and I'm being totally serious, the french translation for SOG - which is GOS - which is french for testicles.
This came straight from CO of CANSOFCOM during a brief on Wednesday.

[Good2Golf]

Special Ops aviation has been around in Canada since the early 90's in support of RCMP (450 Sqn in Ottawa), and still to this day (a certain small group at 427 Sqn), so its nothing new.
DueyT, you might know me from the 'other site' as 427FO....co-worker of Switchmonkey.

For the guy who mentioned SOG - SOG is CANSOFCOM - the reason for the change was, and I'm being totally serious, the french translation for SOG - which is GOS - which is french for testicles.
This came straight from CO of CANSOFCOM during a brief on Wednesday.

SF, I was wondering 'bout that...   Most folks assume that all mods have info on everybody...not so.  Some folks are sort of easy...like Strike on the other side, others I only have a slight clue.

Good point.  Most people don't know that some of us pre-dated other Tier I capabilities, if even by only 2-3 years.  Good to see the stuff in the video about the 427 SOAS.  In my post on the other side, I was using "SOAS" tongue-in-cheek not realizing that it had actually been approved and became policy.  I guess I would have to say I fullly agree with where the Chief and Col Barr are heading with us! Hu-ah! (It would be nicer if we were going to be a SOAR, but I'll take a SOAS as a first step.... )

Hmmmm...does that mean we'll get to trade in the powder blue beret? 

Cheers,
Duey