Author Topic: A war-time mobilization role for the CIC?`  (Read 19577 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline redleafjumper

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 420
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 896
A war-time mobilization role for the CIC?`
« on: November 06, 2005, 23:57:38 »
In my time as a CIL officer I often wondered what role I would have in the event that Canada ever became embroiled in a war.  Upon volunteering, would I go to a training school for further training?  Would I be involved in training recruits?  Or, would I be merely be going into the pot with everyone else?  What would the powers that be in Ottawa see me doing in the event of war, assuming that training cadets was no longer a priority (and perhaps it would be).
 
It might be useful to determine on the service side of the house exactly what role the CIC would have in the event of mobilization.  It may be an uncomfortable question, but it likely deserves some solution.  One factor is that there are some major divisions in the CIC.  There are those who have come into the system without any other military background, those who were cadets and went in soon after, and those who had other service, either in the militia or the regular army prior to their CIC service. Some of those folks would likely have a clear role (such as return to prior MOC), and others might need to have a role defined, or not. Some CIC may not be fit for other military roles, or not want to perform anything else but training cadets. 

The fact that there currently does not seem to be a role for the CIC military operational classification (MOC - interesting word "operational"...) at all is disconcerting, especially when one considers that this is the largest officer corps in the country.   

I look forward to reading some thoughtful responses on this issue.
Redleafjumper

"After all, courage of the lonely sort is surely the most glorious thing that we can hope to witness, and whether it is displayed upon our side or upon the other, one feels the better for having witnessed it."  Major H. Hesketh-Pritchard, DSO, MC in Sniping in France 1914-18, p. 113.

Offline Michael O'Leary

  • The moral high ground cannot be dominated by fire alone, it must be occupied to be claimed as held.
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 341,165
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,684
    • The Regimental Rogue
Re: A war-time mobilization role for the CIC?`
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2005, 00:01:27 »
Given the broad range of experiences and backgrounds, there would likely be a requirement for individual cases to be assessed and varying entry programs opened to meet suitable candidates. They could range from acceptance at the most basic training levels in other classifications, to the filling of operational, staff or training billets based on existing skillsets. I can't see there being a blanket appraoch given the diversity of abilities and past training (or lack thereof).

Offline redleafjumper

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 420
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 896
Re: A war-time mobilization role for the CIC?`
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2005, 00:08:37 »
Thanks for a rapid and thoughtful response Michael.  That is where my own thoughts on the matter lie, but what concerns me is that there does not appear to be any official plan in place.  Perhaps what you suggest is what may well happen.
Redleafjumper

"After all, courage of the lonely sort is surely the most glorious thing that we can hope to witness, and whether it is displayed upon our side or upon the other, one feels the better for having witnessed it."  Major H. Hesketh-Pritchard, DSO, MC in Sniping in France 1914-18, p. 113.

Offline Big Foot

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 225
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 761
  • Muda, mura, and muri everywhere I look...
Re: A war-time mobilization role for the CIC?`
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2005, 00:09:25 »
I doubt that there would be a standard role for CIC officers if there was a situation of all-out war in Canada. While acknowledging the fact they do indeed hold a Royal Commission, the training which they receive has no equivalent with the Regs or ResF. For example, the things learned on BOQ bear little to no resemblence to the things taught on IAP/BOTP. As a result, they lack even the rudimentary training expected from officers. They would need to be entirely trained before they could be sent to war because they are only given the very basics of military training and therefore, if sent as is, would be a liability to themselves and their troops. So I would say no, CIC officers, with the exception of those with prior service would not be of use to the system without further training.
It's not insubordinate if you know exactly where the line is and walk on it but never cross it.

Offline redleafjumper

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 420
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 896
Re: A war-time mobilization role for the CIC?`
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2005, 00:31:33 »
One correction Bigfoot, the CIC is a sub-component of the Primary Reserve, they are part of the reserve force.  The military training received is specific to the MOC and is certainly different than that of other MOCs.  I would dispute that CIC officers as a class lack even the most rudimentary training expected from officers - I would say that CIC have the basic training expected of officers, as they are in fact commissioned officers as you correctly pointed out.  Certainly for many additional training would be required prior to being sent off to war.
Redleafjumper

"After all, courage of the lonely sort is surely the most glorious thing that we can hope to witness, and whether it is displayed upon our side or upon the other, one feels the better for having witnessed it."  Major H. Hesketh-Pritchard, DSO, MC in Sniping in France 1914-18, p. 113.

Offline Big Foot

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 225
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 761
  • Muda, mura, and muri everywhere I look...
Re: A war-time mobilization role for the CIC?`
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2005, 00:51:48 »
Redleaf, my point was that CIC officers do not complete IAP/BOTP and therefore do not receive the same training as the rest of the officer corps. Reserve officers, yes, however they do not receive the same training, even on a basic level, as any other officer in the CF. Look at it this way, do CIC officers receive training on things such as the military estimate, SMESC format, etc? These are just basic essentials for officers. I'm really not sure if they are things that are taught on BOQ.
It's not insubordinate if you know exactly where the line is and walk on it but never cross it.

Offline primer

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 105
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 290
    • www.armycadethistory.com
Re: A war-time mobilization role for the CIC?`
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2005, 01:39:02 »
On the Army CIC side we must do a course of ether MOC or JOLC that's cover the basic skills of how to command. JOLC is designed as a Platoon Commanders Course and yes we did cover MILITARY ESTIMATS and SMECS.


As a CIC officer I think that we can contribute to the call of duty if needed in a time of crises. The CIC have a vast experience of lifetime skills. Most CIC officers have some prior military training as in the P-Res or Reg force. All CIC officers are professional instructors as we meet or surpass CFSAL standards as instructors. If we do get a call I can see the CIC working in a mostly support rolls. Even CIC Air Officers that have pilot licenses might have the chance to fly for the Air Force with the proper training.

During the Ice Storm we had here in Eastern Ontario. We got the call to assist in any way we can. There were CIC officers from RMC (Kingston) that were commanding soldiers in a few command posts across their city and on foot patrols from house to house seeing if anyone needed any military assistance. Here in Ottawa and Western Quebec CIC officers helped with working with the young and old in shelters or unloading trucks with generators or food. We are really no different give us the training that's all we need.

I can see it in the very near future as Gen Hillier said Total Force Concept and that would include the CIC.
True North Strong and Free

CIC Coin # 091

Offline Ditch

  • Established 1998
  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 28,352
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,420
  • I routinely step in it, but like conflict...
Re: A war-time mobilization role for the CIC?`
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2005, 02:38:20 »
  Even CIC Air Officers that have pilot licenses might have the chance to fly for the Air Force with the proper training.
Sorry partner - that would never wash.  We might as well recruit a civilian pilot and train him fresh, would be the same result.

Quote
I can see it in the very near future as Gen Hillier said Total Force Concept and that would include the CIC.

The CIC officer corps has recently been exempted from the basic universality of service under the CF - which basically means that they are unfit for any other trade than CIC - Even in a time of mobilization the need for bodies may be drawn from the CIC, but I would expect them to be more of a man-power element, ie. infrastructure repair or helping with the infirmed.  If a CIC member wished to be sent overseas with the boys, he/she would most likely be sent through basic training with the rest of the civilians and brought up to the basic standards required.
Per Ardua Ad Astra

Offline redleafjumper

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 420
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 896
Re: A war-time mobilization role for the CIC?`
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2005, 03:13:50 »
Zoomie, I am interested in the source of the exemption from universality of service that you refer to.  What are the details on that order?
Redleafjumper

"After all, courage of the lonely sort is surely the most glorious thing that we can hope to witness, and whether it is displayed upon our side or upon the other, one feels the better for having witnessed it."  Major H. Hesketh-Pritchard, DSO, MC in Sniping in France 1914-18, p. 113.

Offline Jungle

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 35,250
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,188
Re: A war-time mobilization role for the CIC?`
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2005, 06:24:11 »
The fact that there currently does not seem to be a role for the CIC military operational classification (MOC - interesting word "operational"...)
MOC means "Military Occupation Code". It has nothing to do with the operational status of a trade...  ::)
"I am a Canadian, free to speak without fear, free to worship in my own way, free to stand for what I think right, free to oppose what I believe wrong, or free to choose those who shall govern my country. This heritage of freedom I pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind."
- John G. Diefenbaker. July 1, 1960. From the Canadian Bill of Rights.

Offline Big Foot

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 225
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 761
  • Muda, mura, and muri everywhere I look...
Re: A war-time mobilization role for the CIC?`
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2005, 06:50:17 »
There were CIC officers from RMC (Kingston)
Unless you know something i don't, there are no CIC officers here.
It's not insubordinate if you know exactly where the line is and walk on it but never cross it.

Offline Slim

  • Just sliding along...
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 255
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,170
  • Daylight in the swamp
    • Canadian Coast Guard Auxiliary
Re: A war-time mobilization role for the CIC?`
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2005, 07:31:03 »
The most I could see a CIC officer doing would be an administative post or something equally low key.

CIC officers are not soldiers and cannot be expected to function like them either.
"The only thing required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"

Edmond Burke

Offline Dizzy

  • Guest
  • *
  • 0
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 16
Re: A war-time mobilization role for the CIC?`
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2005, 10:05:19 »
We did receive SMESC training on BOQ and MOC. It had more to do with prepare a parking lot or hang a jerry can in a tree. I've been told we could be used in aid to civil power so why not mobilization?

A CIC officer with a basic pilot licence wouldn't be any better off than a new applicant because the quality of civilian training and the skill level varies quite a bit. You do find the odd airliine pilot out there though. I know we're just bus drivers but sometimes a plane just needs to go from A to B.

Never sleep at the same time as your Captain

Offline Bean

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • -60
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 63
Re: A war-time mobilization role for the CIC?`
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2005, 10:12:38 »
As a current CIC officer/former Pres member I've thought about this alot as well.   In deed during the Ice Storm of '98 mnay of the CIC officers in affected areas were asked to assist in aid to the civil power activities, but no official instruction was given from the RCO so it was no different than a volunteer activity that any citizen could partake in.   By virtue of the commission, yes there were cases where slect CIC officers were supervising activities of other CF members (note the word supervising).   The term Zoomie used of"unfit" for any other trade I think would be incorrect, untested does not in particular mean unfit.   While examining the total force concept the CIC could have a role but as mentioned by others it would have to be based on individual skills and suitability.   A large portion of the CIC community are members of existing emergency services organization and their skills could certainly be put to good use.   There is a strong hi-tech base in the CIC as well which could quickly augment Sigs or EME positions if the need existed, not to mention the countless other careers and skill sets the CIC may have to offer.   It is true, and I've said it myself many times on these boards, CIC officers are not soldiers, but that does not mean they don't have something to offer.

As for the question on BOQ raised early in the thread.   Yes the military estimate and SMESC are taught in full to CIC officers on BOQ (or at least it was when I did BOQ in 93).   The Leadership components of the training program were not custom written for CIC officers they were taken from the same source materials as all other officers.   It is taught with more mephasis on leading youth and ensuring professional competence, but the material is all there.

There have been many CIC officers graduated from RMC, both reident students and distance learning.   The in residence students are far fewer and make up an insignificant portion of the student body but if you look around they are there.   Many CIC officers also pursue second degrees through RMC once commissioned so I'm not sure how they are accomodated at the college.

CIC Air officers could not fly CF aircraft without completing the full gambit of training, even with a commercial rating, with the possible exception of the airbus.   Most CIC pilots have either a glider license or a simple PPL so it wouldn't be any easier for them to fly over any other civilian.   The burden of training would be the same.

In an ideal world, the CIC would be made up of officers who had another MOC as their primary trade and then seconded to the CIC so in times of need they could be mobilized back to their home positions, but this is not financially feasible, and administratively it would be a nightmare.   The CIC has a deep pool of skills, we have preliminary military training and all would be capable of leading personnel in a variety of situations, however majoritively there is no tactical experience and this is where the CIC officers would require training.   Many CIC officers have component transfered to the PRes or Regs and depending on theirTI and civilian skills the majority only have to CAP to be ready for use in their new home units.   Just because we work with kids, many of whom are the same age as PRes soldiers, do not discount the skill or the role they could play in time of emergency or conflict.

Take my lengthy posts as you will, but we do have something to offer, and all the CF need do is ask and we'll respond to the needs identified.

Offline DeweyDecimalSystem

  • Canda's Least Wanted
  • Member
  • ****
  • 320
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 104
  • CIC (Air)
Re: A war-time mobilization role for the CIC?`
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2005, 10:48:52 »
MOC means "Military Occupation Code". It has nothing to do with the operational status of a trade...   ::)

FYI everyone :

Quote
MILITARY OCCUPATION CODES (MOC) CESSATION OF USE

Réf : A. CANFORGEN 099/03 SMA(HR-MIL) 043 311151Z JUL 03 B. 5555-130-0 (PARA 2) 25 août 2004

1. The CANFORGEN at reference outlined the fact that Military Occupational Structure Identification (MOSID) Codes have replaced Military Occupation Codes (MOC) within the Human Resource Management System, the CF Pay System and CF Occupational Specifications. As such, starting 01 September 2005, there remains no valid reason to perpetuate the use of MOC 91A, 92A and 93A to manage, develop or compensate members of the CF.

2. The MOSID for CIC officer is 00232 for all elements.

3. As per 01 September 2005, it is suggested to amend affected documents and system software to effect the use of MOSID vice MOC.

Offline Danjanou

  • Reporting from Goat Rodeo Central
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 92,839
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,433
  • Butt Party NCO on the 81mm Mortar Range
Re: A war-time mobilization role for the CIC?`
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2005, 11:04:45 »
Hmmm. Ok I've been thinking about looking into becoming a CIC officer as I have a couple of nephews who are old for cadets and are thinking about it. Should I avail myself of the opportunity and in turn be accepted, lets take it one step further what would this potential  CIC O/Cdt have to offer in case of a full scale mobilization.

As a former Infantry MWO I'd like to think that I do have some training and skill sets that may be of use to the CF and the country in a national emergency, in addition to any civilian skill sets I bring to the party. So to suggest that I'm less qualified then some undergraduate "ringknocker" with minimal operational experience under his/her belt is a bit harsh if not untrue.

While I'm aware we've discussed the real and hypothetical shortcomings of the CIC cadre hear before ( all together now "do a search" )versus "real soldiers" its not that cut a dried. Realistically there are quite a few CICs that are former NCOs and I'm sure with the upcoming age out of long serving members everyone is talking about we may see more head down that path.

In that case I think Michael O'Leary's original response to what I though was a valid question by redleafjumper was the most realistic one.
NASA spent $12 Million designing a pen that could write in the zero gravity environment of space. The Russians went with pencils.

Offline PViddy

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 2,570
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 542
Re: A war-time mobilization role for the CIC?`
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2005, 11:54:56 »
hey guys,

An interesting topic.

Quote
Look at it this way, do CIC officers receive training on things such as the military estimate, SMESC format, etc? These are just basic essentials for officers. I'm really not sure if they are things that are taught on BOQ.

That is actually all we do! i am unsure about "the military estimate" or what that even is, but i know on my BOQ everything was done in SMESC to the point of it being dumb.

I do agree, actually it's factual, that our RCIS courses are not even close to a Reg force BMQ etc.  Our courses and course content however, will be changing in the next few years.

cheers

PV
PER ARDUA AD ASTRA

Offline Strike

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 34,191
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,460
  • Welcome to the Dead Parrot's Society.
Re: A war-time mobilization role for the CIC?`
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2005, 11:55:57 »
Quote
There have been many CIC officers graduated from RMC, both reident students and distance learning.   The in residence students are far fewer and make up an insignificant portion of the student body but if you look around they are there.   Many CIC officers also pursue second degrees through RMC once commissioned so I'm not sure how they are accomodated at the college.

Let me just explain this statement a little better.   These CIC officers are NOT part of the RMC cadet population.   They are generally working on a Masters degree, usually in Arts, like War Studies.   Therefore, when stating that they are in residence, you are giving the misnomer that they are living with the cadets, which is false.   Some may in fact live off the Crown assets on the base, but they are not intermingled w/ the cadets.   They do not go through the 4 yr Bach program as a cadet in residence, and do NOT get their commission through RMC.

Now, on a lighter note, there are certainly some CIC officers who might be asked to take up a position related to a former mil ocupation they once had should the need arise.   There are also some who SHOULD be asked (but never will, because of the nature of the CIC training) to come in full time in this same circumstance.   An example would be a Capt from AB that was on a DPAC course this fall.   He certainly missed his calling as a PAO in the reg/res.
Stop assuming I'm a man!

Don't know how long I want to keep playing this game...

Offline Beadwindow 7

  • Life is cruel, and I am but a small slice of life
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 44,980
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,141
  • ZBM2
Re: A war-time mobilization role for the CIC?`
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2005, 12:05:45 »
I can say that recently, my unit's Adjt position becam open. One CIC Captain, who had many years ago been the RSM of said unit, expressed interest in the position, ie transfering back to PRes.

It was decided that he did not have equivalent training, and therefore could not take said position

take that as you will, I'm just stirring up the pot
Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline geo

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 26,410
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,648
Re: A war-time mobilization role for the CIC?`
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2005, 12:25:24 »
Hmmm.... musta been "many many years ago"

There was a directive in LFQA some time ago that, for all means and purposes, forbade the employment of CIC officers by PRes units... will try to dig up reference.

In the event of a "call-up" could only see CIC officers being employed in various admin capacities. Possibly used for liaison between the Civilian authority and the military. The personal experieces of CIC officers varies greatly. The young ones could be sent into training with some expectation that they would come thru a little faster than newbies while the older ones will have had some experience in Admin, Log and training that would be of some practical value... not ready to give em webbing, rifle and a shift as sentry but in a call-up, you use the maximum of resources in the best possible way. If a CIC officer can fill in on some Log or admin position - the other guy can go off & take care of business at the pointy end of the stick.

IMHO of course.
Chimo!

Offline geo

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 26,410
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,648
Re: A war-time mobilization role for the CIC?`
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2005, 16:30:03 »
CIC officers who, Mondays thru Friday toil in offices, manage employees, manage budgets, inventory and customer satisfaction certainly have something to offer. it might not be "green" experience but.... let's paint it purple.
Chimo!

Offline N. McKay

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 11,505
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,255
Re: A war-time mobilization role for the CIC?`
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2005, 16:42:10 »
CIC officers do a great job teaching cadets, but are officers in the CF only for administrative purposes (using armouries, signing out kit, being employed by DND during the summer at camps etc). Let's make sure not to confuse that. A 'pure' CIC officer (one who entered the CF as a CIC and will retire as a CIC) really cannot be useful to the CF except in very minor admin capacities. The level of training and experience is just not there, and leading a bunch of cadets around is not at all the same as leading a bunch of soldiers around in real life scenarios. Thats just the way it is. Except for those CIC officers with previous military experience, in an emergency the CIC would be called up only as a last resort and would probably be required to undergoe proper training before they would be employed.  

Sorry if I've asked you this before, but have you ever been a CIC officer?

Offline kincanucks

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 13,810
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,554
    • ARRSE
Re: A war-time mobilization role for the CIC?`
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2005, 16:53:18 »
The ability to look after 12-18 year old kids could come in handy some place.
- Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.
- If we are the only intelligent life in the universe, at least there's a finite number of idiots.
- Just when you realize life's a *****, it has puppies.

Offline redleafjumper

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 420
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 896
Re: A war-time mobilization role for the CIC?`
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2005, 16:58:44 »
In my time as a CIL officer I led both regular and reserve members in different capacities. Mutual respect and getting the job done coupled with some good old-fashioned leadership seem to work no matter what one's trade might be.   CIC officers are commissioned members of the CF, they aren't just officers for "administrative purposes", and certainly some of that training is useful.   Having taught some 500 cadets and others to climb and rappel (among many other topics) over the years, both at summer training camps and in local field training exercises, I have a pretty good idea that what I was doing was not merely administrative in nature.   I also used to teach a lot of rimfire and centre-fire shooting, but that is a whole additional issue.   
Geo's comments about the background of CIC officers who work in a variety of trades and then wear a uniform having something to offer the CF is certainly true.   Michael O'Leary's comment at the first interest is quite perceptive and seems to me to be a reasonable idea, but there really needs to be some clarity as to what would happen in the event of trouble.   In many communities in Canada, the local CIC officers are the only military presence, and thus bear special responsibility as the local representatives of the CF.

(edited for grammar correction)
« Last Edit: November 07, 2005, 19:59:38 by redleafjumper »
Redleafjumper

"After all, courage of the lonely sort is surely the most glorious thing that we can hope to witness, and whether it is displayed upon our side or upon the other, one feels the better for having witnessed it."  Major H. Hesketh-Pritchard, DSO, MC in Sniping in France 1914-18, p. 113.

Offline PViddy

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 2,570
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 542
Re: A war-time mobilization role for the CIC?`
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2005, 17:19:29 »
Quote
but are officers in the CF only for administrative purposes 

Show me that in writing.
PER ARDUA AD ASTRA