Author Topic: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential  (Read 29517 times)

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Offline CFSPDB

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Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« on: March 10, 2006, 01:33:00 »
Why is the  CFSPDB not  full  or at lest running to 80% of it total numbers for inmates

Offline AmmoTech90

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2006, 02:04:30 »
Because there aren't enough people sent there to make it full or at 80%.

It's not a volunteer thing you know...
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Offline CFSPDB

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2006, 06:21:31 »
NOt enough people?  I think 80%  of 25 is around 20. So where is it  we dont have enough people to send.

Offline meni0n

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2006, 12:06:45 »
Are you talking about manning or people who actually go there because of an offence?

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2006, 12:08:23 »
Why is the  CFSPDB not  full  or at lest running to 80% of it total numbers for inmates
Are you insinuating that more of us should do the Crime, so we can do the time?  Just to keep the DB full?   :-[
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Offline Jungle

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2006, 12:14:33 »
Are you insinuating that more of us should do the Crime, so we can do the time?  Just to keep the DB full?   :-[
I suggest we start by sending CFSPDB to motivate others... maybe if MPs lead the way, others would follow...  ::)
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Offline Haggis

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2006, 12:21:01 »
Why is the  CFSPDB not  full  or at lest running to 80% of it total numbers for inmates

Since your profile is empty, should we assume that you're posting from CFSPDB? ;D

Feeling a bit lonely????
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Offline Beadwindow 7

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2006, 12:27:45 »
Wow...I never realized that was such a problem.

I fear I've failed in that I've neglected this ongoing situation.

meni0n, I think it's now our DUTY to go commit service offences, so that we may be part of the solution...

or wait, if it's not full capacity, maybe another solution has been working...like, the deterrent factor?
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Offline meni0n

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2006, 12:29:36 »
Right, I'm going to trash my room asap.  :)

Offline CFSPDB

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2006, 17:00:34 »
If you want to trash your room go ahead. I was trying to get across why are not  more people sentenced to deter others. Btw Sig guys are the first one  to break in DB  ;D

Offline Beadwindow 7

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2006, 17:10:04 »
If you want to trash your room go ahead. I was trying to get across why are not  more people sentenced to deter others. Btw Sig guys are the first one  to break in DB  ;D

Alcohol and smoke withdrawal? Probably.  :blotto:
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Offline BulletMagnet

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2006, 17:14:28 »
Des,

Remember "Every good troop spends time in jail" so I ask how good of a troop are you?   8)
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Offline Beadwindow 7

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2006, 17:17:08 »
Des,

Remember "Every good troop spends time in jail"

"The better troops get away with it"

I'll leave it at that.  ;)
Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline CFSPDB

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2006, 17:20:20 »
Digger time was a promotional avenue way back when. As for with drawl  No one has addictions.......well thats what they say   and three later  the scracthing starts.

Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2006, 17:24:36 »
How long ago was "way back when"?   Was that in "the good old days"?  Or "back in the day"?

Offline CFSPDB

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2006, 17:37:06 »
Way back when is before 1988  but after 1975  The  good old days only apply to germany time :)

Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2006, 17:43:02 »
Well, in that case, I remember "way back when", and the majority of the soldiers I saw go to SDB were improved by it only with respect to deepening their resolve to achieve civilian status.

Based on my experience of hearing it from NCOs of the early 80s, I would suggest that the "urban legend" of soldiers "improved" by doing time definitely predates your chosen period for "way back when" and the time served was not for the same crimes of note in the early 80s (ex., drug use).

Offline Rider Pride

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2006, 17:52:52 »
So let me get this straight...

Someone who has been in since around 1988, who works at the DB, is asking about why it is not being used nearly up to capacity?

Hmmm?

Possibly because new troops don't get into trouble as severely as often. Or possibly the COs want to sort out their own problems, not push them off to others?

Would a better question be:

If we are not using it to its capacity, why do we need it?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2006, 19:44:08 by Armymedic »
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Offline CFSPDB

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2006, 18:52:10 »
Based on my experience of hearing it from NCOs of the early 80s, I would suggest that the "urban legend" of soldiers "improved" by doing time definitely predates your chosen period for "way back when" and the time served was not for the same crimes of note in the early 80s (ex., drug use




 I am so sorry I don't go by hearsay. I actually work there and I do see some,not all but some soldiers do get back on the right track. I do think that a increase in use  would perhaps encourage the others to embrace the Army way.  I believe we have seen a decrease in the quality of the recruit ever sense Cornwallis was closed. CFSPDB  seems to be the last place for discipline   well  maybe  3 RCR still has it to

Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2006, 20:01:40 »
Oh, so my personal experience with soldiers going to and returning from SDB when I was a platoon commander in the 80s is heresay?

Please tell us how the CF should increase the numbers of soldiers being sent to SDB, since this is your solution to "improving" the NCO corps.

Offline Kasanika

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2006, 21:44:34 »
Maybe we should lower capacity by about 20%, say convert some cells into storage or offices, then it will be operating at 100% capacity again.
And if more people start getting sent there then convert the cells back.
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Offline J. Gayson

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2006, 22:15:49 »
"The better troops get away with it"

I'll leave it at that.  ;)

The best troops get CD's.  12 years of undetected crime.   ;D
« Last Edit: March 10, 2006, 22:20:18 by J. Gayson »

Offline GO!!!

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2006, 00:40:11 »
I am so sorry I don't go by hearsay. I actually work there and I do see some,not all but some soldiers do get back on the right track. I do think that a increase in use  would perhaps encourage the others to embrace the Army way.  I believe we have seen a decrease in the quality of the recruit ever sense Cornwallis was closed. CFSPDB  seems to be the last place for discipline   well  maybe  3 RCR still has it to

Yes, of course, the old "declining quality argument".

I'm sure that the NCOs who trained you grumbled about the poor quality of recruits too - back in 1976, and their NCOs did it to them too.

I really have doubts as to how a medic who has "lots" of experience is able to gauge the level of discipline in my unit from his lofty perch over in the sin bin. Very perceptive.

You work with the bottom .02% of the military, most of whom are on their way out of the CF anyway - how would you know?
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Offline CFSPDB

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2006, 11:07:08 »

I really have doubts as to how a medic who has "lots" of experience is able to gauge the level of discipline in my unit from his lofty perch over in the sin bin. Very perceptive.

You work with the bottom .02% of the military, most of whom are on their way out of the CF anyway - how would you know?


  I was asking a question  on a open  forum  but I see by your profiel you have 7 years in So give us your in depth thoughts on  the other 98%. And as for your unit???????????/ Not all of us were the same trade we started out as. Please tell us about your experience in or working with CFSPDB if not maybe you can move on and lend you vast experience to other post /forums  who need  your knowledge.

Offline BulletMagnet

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2006, 11:12:47 »
*Runs for his trench*

INCOMING!!!!!!!  ;D
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2006, 11:21:16 »
Counter Battery Radar has been deployed
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Offline Otto Fest

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2006, 11:22:59 »
Great circular logic.  If we just decrease the number of doctors by 10% we'll save 10% of the health care budget.  I'm sorry, the Ontario Government already tried that.
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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2006, 12:05:13 »
Worm out Grunt you are correct.  The "new" CDU concept  is not worknig out like it was hoped. I have no answers to that mud pile maybe we should just trust Ottawa to sort it out.

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2006, 12:14:54 »
You work with the bottom .02% of the military, most of whom are on their way out of the CF anyway - how would you know

  Not  quite correct. More like .01% come to CFSPDB.
 As for on the way out. Once again no  Of the last 10 in cells.

1 was released ( Officers can be keep in after )
1 was released ( contract not renewed and it was his second tiem here,no we did not get him the 1% tear drop tattoo)
8 were returned to Units as productive members of the CF
Of those 8 one is no nominated  for a award of bravery so I hope I help you understand the if not the reason we have  DB at lest the satistics of the inmate population. Feel free to add any personal experiences YOU might have  with the DB or even or even how  it could be improved I believe that what the forum here was ment for open discussion.

 And no I am not trying to slam you If I did I apologize for that right now. cheers :)


 Well  at lest we have a few good ideas. Thanks to thew MOD for the P>M
« Last Edit: March 11, 2006, 17:34:40 by CFSPDB »

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2006, 12:15:17 »
maybe we should just trust Ottawa to sort it out.

 :o

Offline 2 Cdo

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2006, 13:06:35 »
Of course it isn't being used to it's "full potential" (whatever that is supposed to mean) as in todays army troops are not engaging in near the amount of bullsh*t that people my age did. Or maybe they are just not getting caught! :o

Escorted a soldier there in '88 for a 180 day sentence, while doing inclearance ran into several other troops from the commando who were finishing up their 90 day sentences. All are still in, all are SNCO's or WO's now. It just wasn't that big a deal in those days.

I am curious CFSPDB what your exact job is at the prison. Your profile says you are a Cpl from the Field Amb. Your history claims lots? Are you employed as a "screw" or are you merely employed as a medic there? Do you think we should charge and sentence people more often in order to fully utilize the prisons capabilities? Or are you just bored and wish to keep yourself busier during the day?

All questions that need answering, you haven't proposed any answers to these questions yet, but have resorted to insults about time in.
Quote
  I was asking a question  on a open  forum  but I see by your profiel you have 7 years in So give us your in depth thoughts on  the other 98%. And as for your unit??/ Not all of us were the same trade we started out as. Please tell us about your experience in or working with CFSPDB if not maybe you can move on and lend you vast experience to other post /forums  who need  your knowledge.

Please inform us of your vast experience in the CF as you so eloquently asked of others!

AIRBORNE
2 Cdo 84-88

Offline BulletMagnet

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2006, 13:21:56 »
So CFSPDB let me get this straight, your suggesting that we send more people to Club Ed to solve a perceived discipline problem in the CF and the under use of the Pen?

Tell you what, you staff up a memo on your concerns and send it up your CofC, Hey you see a problem might as well try and be part of the solution right?

Oh and friendly word of advice, I wouldn't be picking fights based in TI on these forums, I might have only 6yrs in but you haven't a clue as to what my experience level is for those 6yrs, let alone people like GO!!!!

Then again if GO!!! takes issue with your telling him he doesn't have the TI to debate with you then I'm sure he is going to say something about it.

Oh and one last thing CFSPDB try using spell check and proof reading your post, it will make it easier for us to read what your saying.

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Offline GO!!!

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2006, 15:01:49 »
Sooo,

You state that;

1) The only place in the CF that still has discipline is the Jail and 3 RCR. Would you care to prove that in an empirical manner? If not, I could make equally ridiculous statements like; "Only marginal soldiers are used as custodians at the jail, since it is a non-deployment/non-promotion position" and pass them off as the learned truth, whether they are or not.

2) Since the jail is not full, and you (evidently) are underworked, there must be some sort of lack of will in the CoC to send people to jail more often. I would submit that the recruiting targets have shifted the type of soldiers we are recruiting (high school grads, often with college/university) who are less likely to smoke dope and punch each other out often enough to be detained as a punishment.

3) .5% of the CF population will end up in DB - really? Given that there are about 60,000 members of the CF, this would be three hundred inmates a year - I thought you guys were'nt busy?
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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2006, 16:10:46 »
Quote
I am curious CFSPDB what your exact job is at the prison. Your profile says you are a Cpl from the Field Amb. Your history claims lots? Are you employed as a "screw" or are you merely employed as a medic there? Do you think we should charge and sentence people more often in order to fully utilize the prisons capabilities? Or are you just bored and wish to keep yourself busier during the day?

That's a queer question considering,

Profiles and credibility? Right, I think I will change my profile to show myself as the VCDS and post a couple of thousand posts so that I can now be taken seriously by the "old timers" on this site! ::) A profile can be made to say anything and number of posts does not make you an expert!

Yes, by all means lets remove anything that I don't agree/like! ::) Self importance of some on this site is astounding!

So are you questioning his posts and information?  Based on what angle?

Funny how you flip flop, isn't it?

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Offline CFSPDB

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2006, 17:46:09 »
DB is not  a jail but more  so a rehabilitation sight now. There have been some changes more towards the less punishment more get them back to work idea. As for being a "screw' no I work on the rehab side of things. Most of the soldiers we get have addiction issues or two which have to be dealt with when they arrive. My .05 has been changed to .002 as @ 150 + or - show up in a given year.


"Please tell us how the CF should increase the numbers of soldiers being sent to SDB, since this is your solution to "improving" the NCO corps." 
I have no idea where you got that?"???????????????????????//



) Since the jail is not full, and you (evidently) are underworked, there must be some sort of lack of will in the CoC to send people to jail more often. I would submit that the recruiting targets have shifted the type of soldiers we are recruiting (high school grads, often with college/university) who are less likely to smoke dope and punch each other out often enough to be detained as a punishment.

 You actually believe there is less off a drug problem in the CF now?
Not slamming just asking


« Last Edit: March 11, 2006, 18:04:57 by CFSPDB »

Offline GO!!!

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2006, 21:37:55 »
You actually believe there is less off a drug problem in the CF now?

I've been in the CF for seven years, and I can honestly say that there are less drugs going around now than there were five years ago.

I can't speak to twenty years ago, but my dad told me how he remembered the recruiters in Montreal recruiting out of the homeless shelters in the mid 70s.

We've also seen a shift to higher academic enrolment standards, with high school being mandatory (?) for nearly every trade, we are not getting the high school dropouts any more, or at least not in the same numbers as in the past.

I think the drug "problem" is more evident now than before because of the type of drugs that troops are caught for using (meth, cocaine, crack etc.) whereas in the 70s and 80s the problems were more widespread but centered on "soft" drugs like pot and acid.
No leader was ever hated for being too hard, but a great many were for attempting to appear that way.

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2006, 22:10:48 »
Go
  Excellent response thanks  for your insight. I would have though it was increased if anything. Makes sense what you state about the higher Education/quality I was going to see if there has ever been a study done on that have to go look around   THANKS AGAIN  CHEERS :)

Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2006, 22:30:59 »
"Please tell us how the CF should increase the numbers of soldiers being sent to SDB, since this is your solution to "improving" the NCO corps." 


I have no idea where you got that?"???????????????????????//


Perhaps it was something you said .....


Why is the  CFSPDB not  full  or at lest running to 80% of it total numbers for inmates


Digger time was a promotional avenue way back when.


I actually work there and I do see some,not all but some soldiers do get back on the right track. I do think that a increase in use  would perhaps encourage the others to embrace the Army way.  I believe we have seen a decrease in the quality of the recruit ever sense Cornwallis was closed. CFSPDB  seems to be the last place for discipline   well  maybe  3 RCR still has it to

Offline CFSPDB

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2006, 22:42:38 »
Hmm  your right it might have been. Anyway I think this has been flogged long enough I will ask a mod  to shut it down.  I will try to be more clear in my questions  next time to avoid the fights and confusion

Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2006, 22:47:37 »
Locked.

Offline garb811

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2018, 12:32:18 »
A very good article on the current state of affairs.  Shared in accordance with the Fair dealing provisions of the Copyright Act.

Quote
Canada’s last military prison costs $2M a year. About half the time, it has no prisoners
By Patrick Cain    
National Online Journalist, News  Global News

One night at the end of April, just before midnight, three soldiers arrived at the military’s internal prison at the south end of the sprawling base in Edmonton and went to work.

There’s always a list of things for the guards on the night shift to do, explains the prison’s commanding officer. Maj. Paul King – patrolling the building, for example, or stripping and waxing the floors.

Really it’s supposed to be five soldiers, King explains – four guards of junior ranks and an NCO to supervise – but some are away on courses, and some positions aren’t filled.

If there had been a prisoner, they would also have had to check on him regularly. But there wasn’t one, and hadn’t been for ten days, since the last one finished his sentence and left.

The Edmonton detention barracks, a small 25-cell prison run on very rigid military lines – when there are inmates – is falling steadily into disuse. On just over half the days since January 2017, it has had no prisoners at all.

However, it still has a staff of 30: a commanding officer, deputy commanding officer, a sergeant-major with the title of ‘chief disciplinarian,’ an administrative staff and enough guards to run the jail 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, on a system of four six-hour shifts a day.

Running the institution costs about $2 million a year.

For 2016, that works out to about $2,280 per inmate/day, or about ten times the cost of civilian maximum-security custody. In 2015, when there were fewer inmates, it came to $3,900 per inmate/day. (By contrast, Ontario charges the federal government $237.13 per inmate/day to confine immigration detainees in its maximum-security jails.)

...

Much more at link

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2018, 13:24:11 »
Looming changes to Summary trials, stripping the power of Commanding Officers to impose a sentence of detention, will likely further reduce the number of individuals sent to Club Ed.
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Offline garb811

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2018, 20:45:41 »
I'm split on whether that is going to have an impact or not.

A big part will be answered once the Regulations which define what "service infractions" are if/when Bill C77 becomes law.  If the "informed rumour" I've heard is correct, they are going to be confined to variations on the big 5 with everything else going to courts martial.

Offline dapaterson

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This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline Dimsum

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Re: Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential
« Reply #44 on: May 23, 2018, 21:56:51 »
Looming changes to Summary trials, stripping the power of Commanding Officers to impose a sentence of detention, will likely further reduce the number of individuals sent to Club Ed.

This...is good, right? 

The most I've dealt with the justice system is a speeding ticket, but I'd like to believe that having fewer prisoners is a good thing.  Anything really serious gets dealt with in civilian/criminal court and anything not really serious is a fine/admin action, etc.  Or am I totally off the mark?
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."