Author Topic: CH-146 Griffon  (Read 148998 times)

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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #225 on: January 27, 2019, 13:11:51 »
800 million dollars to upgrade 85 aircraft is absolutely insane. The newest airframe is 20 years old.   We could replace them with brand new Black Hawks for very little more or if you prefer, more airbuses and have a far superior aircraft that is good until at least 2040.   

Still a baby!!   8)

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Offline Retired AF Guy

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #226 on: January 27, 2019, 14:59:59 »
800 million dollars to upgrade 85 aircraft is absolutely insane. The newest airframe is 20 years old.   We could replace them with brand new Black Hawks for very little more or if you prefer, more airbuses and have a far superior aircraft that is good until at least 2040.   

At $21.5(US) million ea., the Black Hawk is one of the most expensive helicopters out there. At that price the RCAF could afford about 32 helicopters, less than half what we have now.
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #227 on: January 27, 2019, 18:45:43 »
At that price the RCAF could afford about 32 helicopters, less than half what we have now.

But each with three times the capability of a Griffon ... so it's a wash?    8)

Offline YZT580

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #228 on: January 27, 2019, 20:06:56 »
last order I saw was for approx 100 aircraft for just over a billion.  That works out to about 10 million each so 85 would be 850,000 u.s. And you get twice the aircraft for the money

Offline Retired AF Guy

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #229 on: January 27, 2019, 20:36:55 »
But each with three times the capability of a Griffon ... so it's a wash?    8)

The old dilemma about capabilities versus cost .. and we all know how the Canadian government would decide.
"Leave one wolf alive, and the sheep are never safe."

Arya Stark

Online Colin P

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #230 on: January 27, 2019, 22:04:38 »
From the above link; " Bell Helicopter Textron Canada Limited will be undertaking design work to extend the life of Canada’s fleet of 85 CH-146 Griffon helicopters to at least 2031."

"The first phase of this life extension is the definition phase, during which Bell Helicopter Textron Canada Limited – the original equipment manufacturer – will develop design changes to upgrade the helicopter’s avionics systems, engines, and cockpit displays, and integrate sensor systems."

From the 10.01.2018 issue of the Canadian Defence Review:

"GRIFFON LIMITED LIFE EXTENSION PROJECT

The GLLE project will extend the life of the CH-146 Griffon beyond the current Estimated Life Expectancy so that the aircraft can continue to be operationally relevant and remain a vital contributor to the readiness of the Canadian Army and the Canadian Special Operations Force Command units well into the future.

The extension will bridge the gap until a replacement capability is acquired through the Tactical Reconnaissance Utility Helicopter project. GLLE aims to extend CH-146 operat­ing life to 2030+ through the replacement of obsolete avionics, instrumentation and displays with an integrated digital systems architecture. It may also include new digitally controlled engines as a package.

Flight simulators will also be modified to conform to the fleet. Finally, the project will ensure integrated logistic support, supply of initial spares and training. According to an April 2017 RCAF Director of Air Requirements (DAR) document, the preliminary estimate of the cost of GLLE ranges between $500 million to $1.5 billion."


Interesting, back in 2011, when the last contract for a CH-146 Griffon upgrade was awarded, the plan was to retire it in 2021.

So no new engines?

Offline kev994

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #231 on: January 27, 2019, 22:19:16 »
I thought the transmission was the limiting factor? I don’t see anything about that.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #232 on: January 27, 2019, 23:05:01 »
At $21.5(US) million ea., the Black Hawk is one of the most expensive helicopters out there. At that price the RCAF could afford about 32 helicopters, less than half what we have now.

I know it's a bigger air frame, and I have no idea what I'm talking about when it comes to aircraft, but I'm a big Super Puma fan...

$15.5m USD per unit (over 10 years ago) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocopter_AS332_Super_Puma
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Loch Sloy!

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #233 on: January 28, 2019, 01:15:29 »
UH-1Y production for the USMC just finished... Might be a good time to get a deal on airframes that are everything the Griffon isn't! Buy about 20 Cobras while we're at it.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who kept their swords.
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Offline Journeyman

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #234 on: January 28, 2019, 08:34:10 »
.. and we all know how the Canadian government would decide.
Best photo ops (bonus points if costumes could be worn), 'supportive' political riding, with no less than 25% of airframes identifying as female?    :pop:

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #235 on: January 28, 2019, 09:39:14 »
Best photo ops (bonus points if costumes could be worn), 'supportive' political riding, with no less than 25% of airframes identifying as female?    :pop:

I think that is 100%. I have never heard of an aircraft referred to as anything other than the feminine gender.

Offline Journeyman

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #236 on: January 28, 2019, 10:33:57 »
I have never heard of an aircraft referred to as anything other than the feminine gender.
Ah, clearly an example of male oppression, obliging aircraft to adhere to outdated misogynistic standards, denying them the right to self-identify as any number  of other genders!   Subjugator!!

/sunny ways   


(OK, I'll stop wasting bandwidth here  ;)  )

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #237 on: January 28, 2019, 13:58:19 »
Ah, clearly an example of male oppression, obliging aircraft to adhere to outdated misogynistic standards, denying them the right to self-identify as any number  of other genders!   Subjugator!!

/sunny ways   


(OK, I'll stop wasting bandwidth here  ;)  )

You forgot 'Cultural Appropriator'.  ;D
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Online Old Sweat

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #238 on: January 28, 2019, 14:09:25 »
You forgot 'Cultural Appropriator'.  ;D


What would the aircrew qualification badge look like?

Offline Drallib

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #239 on: February 10, 2020, 12:49:52 »
"Midlife" Upgrade, it's going to begin in the next 2 years and all aircraft will be finished around 2027 or something? 800 Million to extend the life until 2031... I think they should have saved that 800 million to go towards our next utility helicopter, but let's be honest, the CH-146 Griffon will be in the RCAF until 2040. The replacement discussion hasn't even been mentioned, and when that does you can start the 15 year countdown.
"Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends." John 15:13

Offline LoboCanada

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #240 on: February 10, 2020, 14:07:38 »
What is the difference between the new mid-life upgrade vs. a UH-1Y conversion? I wonder what the reasoning (beside cost) would've been to not go the way of the USMC. Could've thrown Bell's Mirabel plant more money.

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #241 on: February 10, 2020, 14:37:54 »
About 50% of what the UH-1Y upgrade was, give or take. Avionics and a mild tweak to the engines (FADEC and better thermodynamic efficiency of the hot-end).

The USMC essentially kept the UH-1N’s data plate then built a massively up-powered (T700s similar time Black Hawk and Apache...much greater power than the Griffon’s T400/PT6-3) driveline and avionics around that data plate.  The USMC also has the AH-1Z ‘Venom’ to share driveline upgrade costs with...not so in Canada.  It is (pretty much) safe to day that it would be a cold day in Hell before Treasury Board let DND do with the Griffon what the Marines did to their Hueys.

:2c:

Regards
G2G

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #242 on: February 10, 2020, 15:45:44 »
Didnt they let it happen when we upgraded the LAV3 to the LAV6? Or was that just the worst kept secret in NATO.

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #243 on: February 10, 2020, 16:29:22 »
PC, having stayed at a Holiday Inn Express ( ;D ) and having seen a LAV 6.0 up close, but not operating it, I can only ‘guesstimate’ the validity of your LAV 6 v 3 thought, and I’d say that it’s a pretty decent analogue to the UH-1N to UH-1Y ‘upgrade.’  I’m pretty sure there is limited physical commonality between the 3 and 6.  The 6 is just plain big(ger)!

Offline suffolkowner

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #244 on: February 10, 2020, 17:23:55 »
UH-1Y upgrade is probably unrealistic but the mid life upgrade should buy time for the maturation of the next generation of helicopters

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/fara-raider-x.html


Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #245 on: February 10, 2020, 20:26:29 »

What would the aircrew qualification badge look like?

How about this?

It should resonate nicely with the septuagenarian class that seems to be running most of the world these days :)



"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Drallib

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #246 on: February 11, 2020, 09:59:59 »
Someone can correct me if I'm mistaken... but I thought the USMC decided to just buy brand new helicopters with the UH-1Y. Or did they upgrade some and buy some?

I work on the Griffon, and I never knew what people meant when they said, "We have a civilian helicopter painted green." Until we went on an exercise at USMC Air Station New River and I saw the UH-1Y up close... they have a military helicopter. Yet the Americans were still going bonkers over our Griffon  :rofl: They thought it was the coolest thing ever.

A few weeks ago, the 1 Wing Commander visited our unit and said that with this "upgrade" he would consider calling it the Griffon 2.0  ... we'll have to wait and see.
"Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends." John 15:13

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #247 on: February 11, 2020, 11:18:25 »
No, the UH-1Y was a “rebuild” program, not a replacement.  That said, the amount of old UH-1N retained in a UH-1Y airframe is minimal.  I heard a Bell employee once joke that only the data plate and the small cargo door (forward of the sliding door) was kept.

Modern avionics and the power train tweak (FADEC “Dash-9” engines and MGB upgrade to the 1350 shp from the 1136 shp model, of those are still in play) would make the Griffon (2.0) a decent machine for what it is.  It won’t be a UH-60 class machine, like the UH-1Y now is (similar MAUW of 20-21k lbs, similar T700-based driveline), but it’s a decent machine and more capable than the original CH-135 Twin Huey (‘CUH-1N’).

:2c:

Regards
G2G

Online Colin P

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #248 on: February 11, 2020, 13:08:45 »
Most of the Beavers flying today are new planes built around old data plates.

Offline cf100mk5

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Re: CH-146 Griffon
« Reply #249 on: February 12, 2020, 22:06:44 »
Have they ever put a Griffon on floats?