Author Topic: House Hunting Trip (HHT) Lore (merged)  (Read 45441 times)

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Offline DaisyDee

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Re: HHT and IRP not covering hotel stay for HHT?
« Reply #50 on: July 04, 2011, 15:26:52 »
Apparently we can appeal through DCBA, whoever that is, but whenever DH or I ask anyone how to do this, they scold us.  One person made me feel like they not only thought I am a complete idiot for not knowing this non-existent (at least to the point no one can show us anything concrete) policy, and that we are trying to rip off the system :(

What really sucks about all this is we can really use that money now as we are expecting twins!  And I am also having trouble with the pregnancies so I'm thinking I have a much more important fight on my hands right now than $800 dollars.  It still makes me angry though how we are being treated, like they assume we are criminals trying to rip off the system and that we are stupid for not knowing we can't leave the area.  They really need to put this in the IRP booklets they hand out.  I read those books from front to back many times and this is not in the section on HHT at all.  Even the IRP person confirmed this.

Maybe we can appeal later, once everything calms down with my babies, but I am doubtful we will be reimbursed anything.  Hopefully there's no time limit on appeals, does anyone here know if there's a time limit?

aesop081

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Re: HHT and IRP not covering hotel stay for HHT?
« Reply #51 on: July 04, 2011, 16:19:38 »
From the IRP policy manual that is available when you log in to your secure site :

Quote
The purpose of…an HHT..... is to…

secure accommodation at the new place of duty with the
intent of ensuring a door-to-door move, thereby:

Deffinition of "place of duty", as per the IRP manual :

Quote
Place of duty :

The place at which a CF member usually performs normal military duties and
includes any place in the surrounding geographical area that is determined to
be part thereof by the Chief of the Defense Staff or such other officer as shall
be designated. Lieu de service


CFB Borden geographical area ( available through the IRP website) at http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pd/rel-rei/borden-eng.asp

Quote
BORDEN - ONTARIO
Description:
Start and include the city of Orillia;
Westward on a line to Warminister, Moonstone, Vasey, Wyebridge, Perkinsfield, and Wahnekewaning Beach;
Thence south along the coastline of Georgian Bay to and including Collingwood;
From Collingwood south along Hwy 24 inclusive of Shelburne to Camilla;
From Camilla eastward on a line to Hockley;
From Hockley following County Road One to Bradford;
Thence north along the Holland River;
Following the shoreline of Lake Simcoe, and back to Orillia.

« Last Edit: July 04, 2011, 16:24:57 by CDN Aviator »

Offline Ice97

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Re: HHT and IRP not covering hotel stay for HHT?
« Reply #52 on: July 05, 2011, 08:50:50 »
IRP is one of the worst things to happen to the Military in awhile....IMO.  I've had 2 moves with the Military....the first one was not through IRP and I had no problems what so ever.  The second one was through IRP....I was ready to strangle my agent before the end of it.  IRP likes to enforce all these rules and expect you to know every aspect of their policies....even when they don't.  If they don't tell you something...and you do something that isn't in the policy....they will penalize you for it...even though they should be taking the hit because they screwed up.  If I had my own way....I would not get posted again just so I wouldn't have to deal with that organization again
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Offline Occam

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Re: HHT and IRP not covering hotel stay for HHT?
« Reply #53 on: July 05, 2011, 09:08:12 »
From the IRP policy manual that is available when you log in to your secure site :

Deffinition of "place of duty", as per the IRP manual :

CFB Borden geographical area ( available through the IRP website) at http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pd/rel-rei/borden-eng.asp

If there's a point in there, I'm not sure what it is.  The person you posted immediately after is posted to Pet, not Borden.

Apparently we can appeal through DCBA, whoever that is, but whenever DH or I ask anyone how to do this, they scold us.  One person made me feel like they not only thought I am a complete idiot for not knowing this non-existent (at least to the point no one can show us anything concrete) policy, and that we are trying to rip off the system :(

Maybe we can appeal later, once everything calms down with my babies, but I am doubtful we will be reimbursed anything.  Hopefully there's no time limit on appeals, does anyone here know if there's a time limit?

DCBA = Director Compensation and Benefits Administration.  Your Orderly Room should know how to get in touch with them, as should Brookfield.

As far as time limits, the move claim is supposed to be closed one year after the move is complete.  There's the grievance process as well.  Grievances should be submitted within six months after the member becomes aware of the issue being grieved, however that time limit can be extended if there are legitimate circumstances.

aesop081

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Re: HHT and IRP not covering hotel stay for HHT?
« Reply #54 on: July 05, 2011, 09:31:05 »
  The person you posted immediately after is posted to Pet, not Borden.


My bad, thank you.

Offline kratz

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IRP and road tolls
« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2011, 18:28:43 »
With so many IRP and Brookfield threads, I am not going to stat a new one just to ask my question.

As with any claim, actual and reasonable costs are reimbursed. The Brookfield representative is indicating they will deny
road toll receipts as we chose to travel through the USA vice the Canadian route (direct route).
When you factor in the cheaper gas, meals and hotels compared to traveling through Canada, paying the road tolls is
a small trade off IMO.

Does anyone, having traveled through the USA on a move, have any experience with this?
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Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: HHT and IRP not covering hotel stay for HHT?
« Reply #56 on: July 17, 2011, 19:23:25 »
Hotel, I can buy.  The rest is paid per km (gas) or per day (meals).  No need for receipts for those.

Offline Ditch

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Re: IRP and road tolls
« Reply #57 on: July 17, 2011, 19:54:36 »
The Brookfield representative is indicating they will deny road toll receipts as we chose to travel through the USA vice the Canadian route (direct route).
That's perfectly reasonable and per the manual.
Per Ardua Ad Astra

aesop081

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Re: IRP and road tolls
« Reply #58 on: July 17, 2011, 20:10:07 »
hotels compared to traveling through Canada,

It makes no difference WRT hotels. You do not get a flat rate for hotels when travelling through the US, you must provide receipts and reimbursed only for actual expenses (up to the max if you had been in Canada).

Your meals and kilometric rate are paid as if you were travelling in Canada. Every other costs incurred because of travelling the US route are on your own.

Offline Pusser

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Re: IRP and road tolls
« Reply #59 on: July 18, 2011, 14:54:18 »
With so many IRP and Brookfield threads, I am not going to stat a new one just to ask my question.

As with any claim, actual and reasonable costs are reimbursed. The Brookfield representative is indicating they will deny
road toll receipts as we chose to travel through the USA vice the Canadian route (direct route).
When you factor in the cheaper gas, meals and hotels compared to traveling through Canada, paying the road tolls is
a small trade off IMO.

Does anyone, having traveled through the USA on a move, have any experience with this?

Brookfield is absolutely correct on this one.  The only one who benefits from cheaper gas and meals is you.  Because you are reimbursed a flat rate for meals and mileage, you can pocket the difference if you find a cheaper route.  I would argue that hotels are not a major consideration for a variety of reasons.  Brookfield's argument (and TreasuryBoard's for that matter) is that if you followed the intended route (i.e. through Canada) you would not have incurred the tolls and so they are not reimbursable.  Even in Canada, only necessary tolls are paid (i.e. toll roads where there are no reasonable alternative routes).
Sure, apes read Nietzsche.  They just don't understand it.

Offline DaisyDee

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Re: IRP and road tolls
« Reply #60 on: July 27, 2011, 17:03:36 »
That's perfectly reasonable and per the manual.

I'm not disputing if tolls are reimbursed or not in this persons case or not, but what manual are you referring to?  And where exactly is this?  I don't recall anything in the two IRP manuals except them saying they will reimburse for tolls.  Again again, I have to double check but I am curious if you don't mind.

Offline Ditch

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Re: HHT and IRP not covering hotel stay for HHT?
« Reply #61 on: July 27, 2011, 18:00:49 »
BRGS has a detailed manual that delineates every single paragraph in the IRP contract.  They refer to it daily for further amplification.  In this persons case they would see that tolls/ferries/etc would only be reimbursable if and only if that route was the most direct.
Per Ardua Ad Astra

Offline DaisyDee

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Re: HHT and IRP not covering hotel stay for HHT?
« Reply #62 on: July 28, 2011, 12:43:48 »
BRGS has a detailed manual that delineates every single paragraph in the IRP contract.  They refer to it daily for further amplification.  In this persons case they would see that tolls/ferries/etc would only be reimbursable if and only if that route was the most direct.

So this is a manual they do not hand out to those moving?  If so, then it should be.  There is no way one could possible know every question to ask, and I take what is in the IRP hand outs as being correct, and it states they cover toll charges.  Not "Toll charges in certain circumstances", which would have me asking more questions because I am one of the few people who actually read and re-read those IRP booklets!

I am starting to become very frustrated with the lack of clarity during a move.  It's like we're given information, in writing, then told after the fact "oh but you can't do that.... or you have to do it THIS way in order to get reimbursed".... and, like I said, there's no way you can know every question to ask.  It would get as ridiculous as "Okay, I will be reimbursed for lodging but only if my husband and I don't sleep in the same bed" or "my kids have to eat breakfast standing up to get our daily meal allowance??".  Clearly these examples are very overboard, but I bet most people understand what I am getting at.  Simply saying "there's an IRP rep there for a reason" is not good enough, because I'm not going to stay on the cell phone the whole drive to our new place giving commentary to every action so we can ensure I'm not breaking any policies.

If I was not being reimbursed for tolls because it's not the shortest direct route, if I knew ahead of time, that is fair.  If I do my due diligence by reading the IRP manuals, asking questions where things are not clear (in the case of tolls to me that is clear, I will be reimbursed) and I end up not being reimbursed for whatever reason, that is unethical in my opinion.

aesop081

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Re: HHT and IRP not covering hotel stay for HHT?
« Reply #63 on: July 28, 2011, 12:47:49 »
So this is a manual they do not hand out to those moving? 

It is in the IRP manual that is available from the IRP website.

aesop081

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Re: HHT and IRP not covering hotel stay for HHT?
« Reply #64 on: July 28, 2011, 12:54:39 »
it states they cover toll charges.  Not "Toll charges in certain circumstances",

You are wrong and probably need to read the CF IRP manual a few more times.

Quote
if I knew ahead of time, that is fair.

See my quotes below from the CF IRP manual.


From the CF IRP manual, which you had access to :

Quote
3.3.04 Tolls, ferry and parking charges

you find :

Quote
CF members are entitled to reimbursement for actual and reasonable expenses
for all tolls and ferries when incurred as a result of travel by the most direct
route.

So, in other words, you knew. It is rather clear.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 13:05:10 by CDN Aviator »

Offline Nix

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Re: HHT and IRP not covering hotel stay for HHT?
« Reply #65 on: August 02, 2011, 19:38:11 »
Nothing to add about the toll bit, but I am very interested in Zoomie's comment about the detailed manual.  Is this manual available to mil pers who are doing an IRP move?

BRGS has a detailed manual that delineates every single paragraph in the IRP contract.  They refer to it daily for further amplification.  In this persons case they would see that tolls/ferries/etc would only be reimbursable if and only if that route was the most direct.

aesop081

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Re: HHT and IRP not covering hotel stay for HHT?
« Reply #66 on: August 02, 2011, 19:46:09 »
A-PP-005-IRP-AG-001 Canadian Forces Integrated Relocation Program Directive

Its available on the secure website when you do a cost-move. Contains just about everything you need to know about policy.

Offline Occam

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Re: HHT and IRP not covering hotel stay for HHT?
« Reply #67 on: August 02, 2011, 19:54:59 »
A-PP-005-IRP-AG-001 Canadian Forces Integrated Relocation Program Directive

Its available on the secure website when you do a cost-move. Contains just about everything you need to know about policy.

It's also available here on the internet, if you follow the link to the current year's Relocation Directive.

Offline Nix

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Re: HHT and IRP not covering hotel stay for HHT?
« Reply #68 on: October 23, 2011, 19:04:57 »
Thanks, I didn't realize it was the directive everyone was referring to.  I thought there was a policy manual of sorts beyond this.  Thanks for clarifying.

Offline tdot888

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type of leave to use on a HHT
« Reply #69 on: April 16, 2015, 10:08:44 »
I am hearing multiple answers on this, that its annual or special relocation and wondering if anyone has a definite answer.
I have looked on http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits-relocation/2009-toc.page
and under http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits-relocation/2014-directive-amend-ch4.page

And http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits-relocation/ch-208-relocation-benefits.page

But nothing clearly states what kind of leave is used during an HHT.

Offline DAA

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Re: type of leave to use on a HHT
« Reply #70 on: April 16, 2015, 10:11:43 »
I am hearing multiple answers on this, that its annual or special relocation and wondering if anyone has a definite answer.
I have looked on http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits-relocation/2009-toc.page
and under http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits-relocation/2014-directive-amend-ch4.page

And http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits-relocation/ch-208-relocation-benefits.page

But nothing clearly states what kind of leave is used during an HHT.

You don't use leave!  You are on an "HHT" which was approved by your CO, so it's the same as being on "TD" but the benefits are being paid through Brookfield.
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Offline kev994

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Re: type of leave to use on a HHT
« Reply #71 on: April 16, 2015, 10:13:10 »
I think he means the extra 4 days, you need some type of leave. My CO gave me 2 short and 2 special in 2012.

Offline tdot888

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Re: type of leave to use on a HHT
« Reply #72 on: April 16, 2015, 10:14:49 »
I don't need any extra days, was just wondering what to put on my leave pass for the duration of the HHT. So I don't even need one? did one up for a few annual before and after it.

Offline DAA

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Re: type of leave to use on a HHT
« Reply #73 on: April 16, 2015, 10:17:12 »
I think he means the extra 4 days, you need some type of leave. My CO gave me 2 short and 2 special in 2012.

I hope you're right!  But yes, if you are not successful in securing accommodations within the "standard" time frame (ie; 7-days and 6-nights) and need additional time, then you would be reqired to use some form of leave to cover the portion of the "extended" HHT.  But ONLY for the extended portion.
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Offline DAA

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Re: type of leave to use on a HHT
« Reply #74 on: April 16, 2015, 10:18:37 »
I don't need any extra days, was just wondering what to put on my leave pass for the duration of the HHT. So I don't even need one? did one up for a few annual before and after it.

No, there is NO requirement for a leave pass because you are NOT on leave, you are on DUTY.  The HHT form that was approved at your Unit authorizing you to proceed on your HHT is all that is required.
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