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Which do you prefer

Sacrifice Medal
Wound Stripe

Author Topic: Sacrifice Medal Mega Thread  (Read 222813 times)

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Offline BulletMagnet

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Re: Sacrifice Medal Mega Thread
« Reply #50 on: September 25, 2006, 13:02:13 »
You mean tne one that start's with an F?

or the one that starts with L? as in " Those UCKY SOB's"
« Last Edit: September 25, 2006, 13:04:54 by HitorMiss »
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Offline the 48th regulator

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Re: Sacrifice Medal Mega Thread
« Reply #51 on: September 25, 2006, 13:02:39 »
I like my wound strip for the reason's I stated earlier.

And when I retire I'll pull it of my DEU'sand frame it next to some of the metal they pulled out of me, with a little plaque that says "DUCK"

Hmmm,

I like that Idea.

See your not jsut a pretty face after all.

I was going to doa shadow box, of items.

dileas

tess
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Offline boondocksaint

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Re: Sacrifice Medal Mega Thread
« Reply #52 on: September 25, 2006, 13:11:34 »
Wound stripe or medal, an arguement for either can be made, certainly nothing wrong with the stripe as it is now, nor would a medal be out of order

I dont see how an arguement of 'it's too American, or de-Canadianized' are in keeping with todays modern army, reforms are needed, outside influence is needed, or we run the risk of becoming stale and left behind, and relegated to the hated 'peacekeeping' word,

the Taliban sure know who we are, our allies know who we are, Canadians know it as well, Im sure a stripe or a medal isnt going to change that
In the company of soldiers I don't have to pretend to be the person Im not, Or strike that pose, however well intentioned, that is expected by those who have not known me under arms. In the company of soldiers all my crimes are forgiven-I am safe-I am known-I am home-In the company of soldiers.

Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

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Re: Sacrifice Medal Mega Thread
« Reply #53 on: September 25, 2006, 13:35:20 »
Wound stripe or medal, an arguement for either can be made, certainly nothing wrong with the stripe as it is now, nor would a medal be out of order

I dont see how an arguement of 'it's too American, or de-Canadianized' are in keeping with todays modern army, reforms are needed, outside influence is needed, or we run the risk of becoming stale and left behind, and relegated to the hated 'peacekeeping' word,


Sorry for being a bit harsh, but your words drew up some emotion.

Reforms? Outside influence? Run risks of being left behind? Becoming stale? Today's modern army? I disagree. I am almost insulted at your remarks.
Wes
« Last Edit: September 25, 2006, 13:40:04 by Wesley 'Over There' (formerly Down Under) »
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Offline Babbling Brooks

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Re: Sacrifice Medal Mega Thread
« Reply #54 on: September 25, 2006, 13:38:12 »
Quote
If you are in a situation where you would be wearing a wound stripe, then you better well be wearing your medals.

No offence intended, but that's where the wound stripe has an advantage.  It's up to the recipient to determine where and when he or she wants to wear it - separate from the rest of one's decorations.

The fact that you've chosen not to wear it, which should be respected, is an example of that advantage as well.
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Offline the 48th regulator

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Re: Sacrifice Medal Mega Thread
« Reply #55 on: September 25, 2006, 14:33:48 »
No offence intended, but that's where the wound stripe has an advantage.  It's up to the recipient to determine where and when he or she wants to wear it - separate from the rest of one's decorations.

The fact that you've chosen not to wear it, which should be respected, is an example of that advantage as well.

That is true.  But I was one of the few that voted for  medal....so  I am biased yet agree with your posts.

dileas

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Offline boondocksaint

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Re: Sacrifice Medal Mega Thread
« Reply #56 on: September 25, 2006, 15:46:16 »
Hopefully not hijacking thread

Im not sure which part of my post was insulting ( WES ), certainly was not its intent, some clarity perhaps;

-we are among the best equiped and best trained militaries in the world- and up until VERY recently, under-employed- our tactics grew stale, we didnt know how to employ our LAV's on the new battlefield in training and often our tactics were our own ( left up to our discretion)-NOT doctrinal and certainly not some form of 'tradition'
-we also benifited greatly by having visits during our training by various Americans currently deployed and picking their brains on what works and doesnt work

Did that make us less Canadian? obviously not. Did we learn valuable lessons from them and incorporate them into our own ideas- yes, we'd be fools not to listen to soldiers who've aquired vastly more experience then we have- and by making these things Canadian, they became better ( we felt anyway )

You ( WES ) mentioned strong emotions being evoked, as are mine everytime I see/hear/read a slight or jab or a lightly flavored "American" comment, a case can be made for a medal or a stripe, using 'Americanization' as an arguement always bothers me, and that was the  reason for my response

Hopefully no further insult is taken, it certainly isnt what Im going for here- I generally get flamed for my ideas surrounding most things 'American'- Im taking medication for it






In the company of soldiers I don't have to pretend to be the person Im not, Or strike that pose, however well intentioned, that is expected by those who have not known me under arms. In the company of soldiers all my crimes are forgiven-I am safe-I am known-I am home-In the company of soldiers.

Offline silentbutdeadly

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Re: Sacrifice Medal Mega Thread
« Reply #57 on: September 25, 2006, 16:00:59 »
 ;D me too, medication that is!...........but i agree with BDS. I was reading another thread on the term "Sandbox" which everyone loves and its American, thats where i first heard it, anyways we tend to adopt American ideas on certain things, but then cut down on other. Yes the wound stripe is fine, but hey if they wanna give a medal too, why not, but don't hate it because its " an American thing". Thats all time to take my pills!

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Sacrifice Medal Mega Thread
« Reply #58 on: September 25, 2006, 16:06:56 »
The wound stripe is in keeping with Canada's British military heritage. In fact the US awarded the wound chevron between 1918-32, at which time the Purple Heart was created.



Offline Iterator

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Re: Sacrifice Medal Mega Thread
« Reply #59 on: September 25, 2006, 16:35:13 »
   
   If you are in a situation where you would be wearing a wound stripe, then you better well be wearing your medals....
   
No offence intended, but that's where the wound stripe has an advantage.  It's up to the recipient to determine where and when he or she wants to wear it - separate from the rest of one's decorations.

The fact that you've chosen not to wear it, which should be respected, is an example of that advantage as well.

I'd like to single out the "optional" line of reasoning (while others cover the American one) - if Canada were to create a medal to be awarded to those wounded then wouldn't Canada be able to state that the wearing of the medal was optional?

If you're suggesting that there is a Canadian regulation preventing any medal from being optional then couldn't Canada modify that regulation for this proposed one?


And couldn't the "wear it whenever advantage" be applied to everything (all badges no medals)? I see it the opposite way - the medals format keeps these items in their proper place and at the proper times.

Using stripes or chevrons to indicate Service Time or Wounded Service were cost effective measures that suited the British uniforms of the day. Keep in mind that medals, other than the VC and Campaign medals, for Other Ranks (NCMs) and junior officers were just being thought out.
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Offline MCG

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Re: Sacrifice Medal Mega Thread
« Reply #60 on: September 25, 2006, 16:54:33 »
Is it possible to introduce an award that retroactively replaces another (ie. everyone that has been awarded a wound stripe would be awarded the wounded medal & the stripe would "go away") or would we see different recognition based on the date of injury?

Offline big bad john (John Hill)

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Re: Sacrifice Medal Mega Thread
« Reply #61 on: September 25, 2006, 16:58:43 »
Is it possible to introduce an award that retroactively replaces another (ie. everyone that has been awarded a wound stripe would be awarded the wounded medal & the stripe would "go away") or would we see different recognition based on the date of injury?

This has been done in the past in the UK and in Canada in days gone by (pre '67).

Offline MCG

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Re: Sacrifice Medal Mega Thread
« Reply #62 on: September 25, 2006, 17:00:19 »
I know of medal retroactively awarded on their creation, but when has such a medal retroactively usurped (be this positive or negative) a previous award?

Offline Iterator

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Re: Sacrifice Medal Mega Thread
« Reply #63 on: September 25, 2006, 17:08:21 »
The George Cross as an example:

From http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=collections/cmdp/mainmenu/group01/gc
The cross was awarded for an act of the greatest heroism or of the most conspicuous courage in circumstances of extreme danger. It was intended primarily for civilians and award in the military services was confined to actions for which purely military honours were not normally granted and awarded for actions not in the face of the enemy.

The Empire Gallantry awards were exchanged for the George Cross, and in 1971, Albert Medal winners exchanged their medals for the George Cross.
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Offline Babbling Brooks

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Re: Sacrifice Medal Mega Thread
« Reply #64 on: September 25, 2006, 17:14:56 »
Quote
If you're suggesting that there is a Canadian regulation preventing any medal from being optional then couldn't Canada modify that regulation for this proposed one?

Iterator, you make a good point: we can make the reg's for a new medal say anything we want.  But if we're going to make it just like the wound stripe reg's, with all the flexibility that implies, then why the push for a medal?  If all the circumstances surrounding its awarding and wear remain the same, you're simply exchanging a piece of braid on the sleeve for a piece of metal on the chest.  A worthwhile trade if you value the metal more than the braid, I guess.

You could make the argument that the distinctive braid, in an exclusive position on the cuff of uniform and civilian dress, makes the wound stripe all the more special.  It doesn't get lost in a sea of campaign medals, long-service decorations, or stuck behind medals for valour.

Quote
And couldn't the "wear it whenever advantage" be applied to everything (all badges no medals)? I see it the opposite way - the medals format keeps these items in their proper place and at the proper times.

Perhaps you're correct, and recognition for wounds should only be worn with other distinctions.  But that line of argument lumps recognition for a wound in with all the other recognitions you wear on your chest.  As it stands, they have their place, and the wound stripe has its own - no greater or lesser, but simply different.

My bottom line is this: I don't know that the soldier, or the CF, or the Canadian people gain anything by telling a wounded service member that they have to wear a symbol of their trauma in uniform, or have to wear it with the rest of their decorations.  As I understand it, a wound is a very personal thing, and so I believe it should be left as much as possible to the wounded to determine how they want to recognize their own sacrifice.
I believe most problems can be solved with weaponry of a high enough calibre.  Take me seriously at your own peril.

Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Sacrifice Medal Mega Thread
« Reply #65 on: September 25, 2006, 17:24:42 »

If some are unhappy with the wound stripe, perhaps because it's only on the service drewss and not worn after retirement, then why does the alternative have to be a new medal.  Why not a device worn on the medal ribbon of the applicable operation? The old "Mentioned in Despatches" oak leaf emblem was worn in such a manner. (http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=collections/cmdp/mainmenu/group03/vm18) It also makes it easier to maintain the "discretionary wear" option.

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Sacrifice Medal Mega Thread
« Reply #66 on: September 25, 2006, 17:38:57 »
It may sound odd to the unitiated,but a combat wound is viewed as a badge of honor. Decorations let all soldiers know a man/woman's military service at a glance where he has been,the honors he has earned. A soldier with a wound decoration gets a bit more respect from his fellow soldiers.

Offline redleafjumper

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Re: Sacrifice Medal Mega Thread
« Reply #67 on: September 25, 2006, 17:45:40 »
The other point to consider which has been alluded to in earlier posts, is that the Memorial Cross is already awarded to the closest relative of the deceased soldier.  In the US, the family would get the Purple Heart, so they aren't completely comparable.  I'm personally okay with the wound stripes and some sort of civilian wear pin, or perhaps even Michael's suggestion which could be a small red cross or other suitable device added to the ribbon of the medal for the campaign in which the wounding occurred. 

Personally, I don't add a stigma to those who's wound was psychological.  Some soldiers from WW1 and WW2 as well as Korea never left the hospital, but didn't have a visible mark on them, and others ended up as street people.  They were clearly altered by their wound(s), even though it was a mental one.

Part of the 'stigma' may be that many consider a wound that bleeds to be a sign of bravery.  It may well mean that, but it may just mean that one was in the wrong place at the wrong time.  If the purpose is to recognize the wounding as part of ones service, then the wound stripes already do that.  The Memorial Cross recognizes the ultimate sacrifice and I don't believe that another medal serves our traditions.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2006, 11:27:12 by redleafjumper »
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Offline Iterator

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Re: Sacrifice Medal Mega Thread
« Reply #68 on: September 25, 2006, 17:52:27 »
...we can make the reg's for a new medal say anything we want.  But if we're going to make it just like the wound stripe reg's, with all the flexibility that implies, then why the push for a medal?  ...

I agree, the stripe and the medal would be exactly the same distinction but in different formats.
And, given that the Wound Stripe has been used intermittently by Canada in the past, there will be a strong "Don't fix it if it ain't broke!" side to the idea.

On the pro-change side there is the anomalous nature and general unportability of the stripe - making it more distinctive to some - and to others it leads them to the medals format solution. Not much of a reason I admit.


But the decision will be influenced where well meaning Canadians will want to extend an open acknowledgement of appreciation to those who have been wounded. Probably, to most civilians (even if informed of the Wound Stripe), a medal is the form of acknowledgement that they would find applicable.

This may go the way of the CPSM - a well meaning attempt by some Canadians to acknowledge the service of the military - but the CPSM, in my opinion, doesn't quite fit. I can see a medal for those wounded being the kind of idea that will see fruition. I think we should embrace the idea, and start thinking about implementation.
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Offline reccecrewman

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Re: Sacrifice Medal Mega Thread
« Reply #69 on: September 25, 2006, 20:20:54 »
Perhaps another thing that could be done is to scrap the GCS entirely.  Go back to to stamping theatre specific campaign stars. A true 5 point campaign star with the current monarchs cypher in the centre.  That would also bring the requirements back to 1 day served in said theatre to make allowances for troops wounded or killed in action prior to serving 30 days in theatre.  Perhaps a bar saying AFGHANISTAN for the GCS with 30 days in theatre being required (Much like the WWII 1939-45 service medal, but I believe it was 28 days in theatre)  Then separate true campaign stars for different theatres Canadian soldiers fight in.  I've taken this far enough off track now, but I believe our soldiers deserve the recognition of a true theatre specific campaign star.  In WWII there was the 1939-45 campaign star and any soldier who served in any theatre from 3 Sep 1939 and 2 Sep 1945 for a period of 6 months in an operational command were awarded this star, on top of campaign stars for additional theatres they served in ie; PACIFIC STAR, ITALY STAR, NORTH-WEST EUROPE STAR etc.  Theatre specific stars were for 1 day service in the theatre.  On the wound stripe issue, I'm sure any Canadian soldier (Hit Or Miss is a fine example) would much rather have the wound stripe - and I hope we hang onto that tradition.  I know when I see that stripe, he or she has gone through hell for it, and to a soldier that's recognition enough. My .02

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Offline Miss Wright

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Re: Sacrifice Medal Mega Thread
« Reply #70 on: September 27, 2006, 21:40:46 »
I think the Purple Heart or the wound stripe is appropriate. :salute:
have a nice day...

Offline ArmyFlyingSailor

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Re: Sacrifice Medal Mega Thread
« Reply #71 on: September 28, 2006, 09:25:41 »
I believe that the current way of having a wounded stripe is all that's needed.  After that, let's concentrate on the people getting the help they need.  :salute:
Igni Obstare

Offline BulletMagnet

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Re: Sacrifice Medal Mega Thread
« Reply #72 on: September 28, 2006, 11:36:16 »
AFS, The guys are getting plenty of great care, thank you for thinking about them though.

As for the wound stripe it doesn't seem that people are against it just that they don't think it's current format is distinctive enough. Somewhere on one of the pages here I think I saw an idea about about a thin red stripe going around the cuff, I'm not opposed to that concept. Tradition is good but it can be updated and still be traditional.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2006, 16:06:39 by HitorMiss »
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Offline Red 6

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Re: Sacrifice Medal Mega Thread
« Reply #73 on: September 28, 2006, 13:03:24 »
Just out of curiosity, do any other Commonwealth forces use wound stripes?

Offline big bad john (John Hill)

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Re: Sacrifice Medal Mega Thread
« Reply #74 on: September 28, 2006, 20:59:36 »
Just out of curiosity, do any other Commonwealth forces use wound stripes?

Yes, the UK Forces.