Topic: We are not winning the domestic war

[zipperhead_cop]

Would Mr. Wright say that the loss of Police Officers on duty, mothers murdering babies and insurrection in Caledonia indicate that we are not yet winning the domestic "War on Barbarism" (copyright Edward Campbell 2006) here in Canada?  Bollocks.

As an aside, we are not winning the domestic war.  I would bet a paycheck that we will be more succesful in A'stan than here.   

[Chris Pook]

As an aside, we are not winning the domestic war.  I would bet a paycheck that we will be more succesful in A'stan than here.   

Such a cynic. View from the frontline? 

Not wanting to drag this off topic I'll just say that I see the domestic situation as comparable to a chronic ailment.  Fevers flare from time to time.  Sometimes they "disappear" for a while. More often than not they continue as a low grade fever that is annoying but doesn't prevent "normal" activities.  Keep feeding us the aspirin ZHC.  You have a job for life.

Cheers.

[E.R. Campbell]

I hope we are being careful to distinguish between:

•   Simple lawlessness, criminal lawlessness, like biker gangs – which are a real threat to our national security when they get involved in e.g. seaport operations;

•   Political lawlessness, like Caledonia – which is a threat to peace, order and good government and may become a major threat to our sovereignty if too many governments cave in too often; and

•   Ethno-political lawlessness – which might involve funding terrorists (even unwillingly) à la the Tamil community in Toronto, or actively planning and, eventually – as sure as the gods make little green apples, executing terrorist attacks in Canada to further the aims of Canada’s declared enemies.

We need, urgently, a major, aggressive, bloody violent, national police operation to sweep the bikers out of our seaports – without too much regard to who gets killed in the process.  That’s a national security imperative which just gets harder and harder, day after day, because too many politicians, bureaucrats and very senior police officers are too frightened to go at it, and way, way too few citizens care enough.

We need to address deep rooted social problems in all segments of Canadian society – including the social problem which says that it’s OK to break the law if you cannot get what you believe is yours by right by lawful means.

We need to seek, find and neutralize those within our society who are willing to attack Canada and Canadians.  This may involve the use of deadly force – perhaps secret deadly force.  It is NOT police work – such work corrupts police forces.  It is NOT soldiers’ work either – soldiers, too, can be corrupted by such work.  Suffice to say, however, that the defence of the realm, the primary duty of the government-of-the-day, includes defending against internal threats, too, so it needs to be, must be somebody's work.

[Chris Pook]

All valid Edward. I see your points.

The particular issues that you raise though would be akin to acute infections that need immediate remedial and occasionally drastic action.  I was thinking more along the lines of (to use another analogy) that crime, like the poor, will always be with us.

Your appreciation of the biker situation is interesting and perhaps deserving of its own thread for discussion.

[zipperhead_cop]

We need to seek, find and neutralize those within our society who are willing to attack Canada and Canadians.  This may involve the use of deadly force – perhaps secret deadly force.  It is NOT police work – such work corrupts police forces.  It is NOT soldiers’ work either – soldiers, too, can be corrupted by such work.  Suffice to say, however, that the defence of the realm, the primary duty of the government-of-the-day, includes defending against internal threats, too, so it needs to be, must be somebody's work.

I'm in.   

As always, another bang on post from Mr. Campbell.   

[rregtc-etf]

What we really need in this country are increased budgets for police to train and equip more officers dedicated to organized crime investigation
What we really need in this country is more funding to conduct co-ordinated multi-agency (police, customs, taxation, immigration, corrections) organized crime investigations
What we really need in this country are aggressive criminal asset forfeiture laws
What we really need in this country are easier search and seizure laws for drugs
What we really need in this country are politicians that support law and order issues
And, what we really, really , really  need in this country are elected judges that are accountable to the public

It's just that simple !

[TCBF]

We aren't going anywhere on this until police corruption is dealt with.  After Zaccardelli screwed the pooch with the Horse Police, would he still have a job in any other country but Canada?  I thought he might have had something on the old regime.  He might have something on the new one as well.  Some sort of "Insurance Policy."

[Cloud Cover]

We aren't going anywhere on this until police corruption is dealt with.  After Zaccardelli screwed the pooch with the Horse Police, would he still have a job in any other country but Canada?  I thought he might have had something on the old regime.  He might have something on the new one as well.  Some sort of "Insurance Policy."

You think he is Hoover's reincarnation?

[FastEddy]

We need, urgently, a major, aggressive, bloody violent, national police operation to sweep the bikers out of our seaports – without too much regard to who gets killed in the process.  That’s a national security imperative which just gets harder and harder, day after day, because too many politicians, bureaucrats and very senior police officers are too frightened to go at it, and way, way too few citizens care enough.

We need to seek, find and neutralize those within our society who are willing to attack Canada and Canadians.  This may involve the use of deadly force – perhaps secret deadly force.  It is NOT police work – such work corrupts police forces.  It is NOT soldiers’ work either – soldiers, too, can be corrupted by such work.  Suffice to say, however, that the defence of the realm, the primary duty of the government-of-the-day, includes defending against internal threats, too, so it needs to be, must be somebody's work.

You state that this work is necessary and suggest it falls within the realms of the Federal Government, but you go on further to suggest that it should not fall to the Military nor Civilian Police Agencies.

Pray tell what the Government of the day is supposed to use to implement such remedies or actions you suggest.

I imagine it would be interesting to hear who or what your thoughts on this would be.

Cheers.

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Mack Bolan??

I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment but the problem is who wouldn't that kind of power corrupt?

[E.R. Campbell]

You state that this work is necessary and suggest it falls within the realms of the Federal Government, but you go on further to suggest that it should not fall to the Military nor Civilian Police Agencies.

Pray tell what the Government of the day is supposed to use to implement such remedies or actions you suggest.

I imagine it would be interesting to hear who or what your thoughts on this would be.

Cheers.

Good question, Fast Eddy, and I do not have a specific answer.

Let me deal with principles.

I have said before, here in Army.ca, that I believe the use of deadly force ought to be the exclusive responsibility of the government.  Therefore I believe this function must be performed by someone who answers to a government minister – the person who, at each election, answers to us.

I have already excluded members of the traditional armed services: the military and the police because I believe that this type of task would be inimical to the values of those services.

That only leaves the civil service.

I think nations can, indeed should have secret services which, at the behest of the government-of-the-day, may (important word, ‘may’) undertake tasks which offend our everyday principles of law and order, etc.

Henry L. Stimson – one of the true giants of the 20th century – is unfairly remembered for his rather quaint remark (in 1917) to the effect that “gentlemen don’t read one another’s mail.”  While, arguably, true of gentlemen it is not, must not be true of honourable nation-states.  We do read one another’s mail, we search through one another’s desk drawers, we use bribery to steal information from foreign officials, we play of people’s weaknesses and peccadilloes in order to entice them to betray their country’s secrets.  All good stuff, all part of the business of safeguarding our own country – defending the realm, which must, always, be the first duty of Her Majesty’s government.

Dealing with people, here in Canada, who are a threat to our security may require similar clandestine and, certainly less than gentlemanly measures.

We already hire a very small number of rather exceptional civil servants to read other’s mail and so on; we may need to hire a few more to do other work.

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Edit: type

[Pikepusher]

And what would differentiate such a "civil service" from a GESTAPO, STASI, or SECURITAS, beyond the fact that it would operate in a "democratic" Canada? 

[Technoviking]

Maybe Stimson meant: "Gentlemen don't read other people's mail: they get someone else to do it for them "

[E.R. Campbell]

And what would differentiate such a "civil service" from a GESTAPO, STASI, or SECURITAS, beyond the fact that it would operate in a "democratic" Canada? 

What differentiates NSA, GCHQ, CSE, etc from, say, FSB or the 2nd Department? ( http://www.fas.org/irp/world/russia/fsb/index.html or http://www.fas.org/irp/world/china/pla/dept_2.htm )

It would have to be the same thing, I suppose.

[Chris Pook]

And what would differentiate such a "civil service" from a GESTAPO, STASI, or SECURITAS, beyond the fact that it would operate in a "democratic" Canada? 

The same thing that differentiates a chisel in the hands of a carpenter and a chisel in the hands of a murderer.  It is not the tool.  It is the intent.

[FastEddy]

The same thing that differentiates a chisel in the hands of a carpenter and a chisel in the hands of a murderer.  It is not the tool.  It is the intent.

That is really a profound example. I hope you don't mind if I plagiarize it in the future.

I'm sure we all know what measures would or will have to be done to Cauterize the Criminal and Terrorist Cancers in our Society.

For now we'll just let them grow, then what ?.

Cheers.

[bilton090]

The police are doing a good job !, but the s--t head judges are tossing the cases out or a little slap on the hand.
             Look now about the 3 times in jail, your going to say there for 7 more years !
                   the NDP & Libs are crying over that WTF ?

[Chris Pook]

That is really a profound example. I hope you don't mind if I plagiarize it in the future.

I'm sure we all know what measures would or will have to be done to Cauterize the Criminal and Terrorist Cancers in our Society.

For now we'll just let them grow, then what ?.

Cheers.

Eddy, feel free - just remember where you got it and toss a coin in the collection box on the way out. 

[FastEddy]

The police are doing a good job !, but the s--t head judges are tossing the cases out or a little slap on the hand.
             Look now about the 3 times in jail, your going to say there for 7 more years !
                   the NDP & Libs are crying over that WTF ?

Yes thats very true. You should also remember, that when they don't seem to, its probally due to the restrictions and directions placed on them by Politicians and the likes.

As for Jail Time or lengthy Sentences, it then all comes down to dollars and cents. And very seldom to the Kind Old Judge giving somebody a break.

Cheers.

[zipperhead_cop]

Yes thats very true. You should also remember, that when they don't seem to, its probally due to the restrictions and directions placed on them by Politicians and the likes.

As for Jail Time or lengthy Sentences, it then all comes down to dollars and cents. And very seldom to the Kind Old Judge giving somebody a break.
Cheers.

   WTF, and say again, over?

[FastEddy]

  WTF, and say again, over?

Plea Bargaining, Over Crowded Dockets, Expensive Lawyers, Limited Facilities and if one has a healthy imagination, a few others.

Why ?, what did you have in mind. Of course we are referring to why there are so many cases walking so to speak.

[zipperhead_cop]

Okay, here is the current tactic of defence lawyers.  They subpoena every person imaginable for the case.  Every officer that even remotely is in the report, the wagon driver, the cell guys and all the civilians.  Then they say that they need a full day in court because of all the witnesses.  Getting a full day takes a lot of scheduling, and is pretty hard to get.  So they keep piling on the crap. 
When everyone shows up for the first time, they come up with some lame excuse and get the case put over.  The next time the case doesn't get it's own day or maybe some people are not available this time, and there are backed up other cases to deal with.  Then the lawyers just linger and hope the case doesn't get called by the end of the day, then they can argue institutional delay and try to get the charge tossed.  Or they can argue the useless charter argument and waste even more time in court.  If the thing actually gets to trial, all of a sudden the tool has a big "change of heart" and pleads guilty, wasting everyones time.  But even if convicted in a trial, the sentence they get is no different than the one they would have if they plead guilty, so why not fight it?  And that is their right to play that game, but it is the judges fault for letting them. 
The other cute one is letting their guy stay in jail because they know he will get double time credit for dead time.  There is nowhere in law that says anybody should get double time credit, it is just a "thing" that the judges made up and continue to allow.  Ignoring the fact that if you are doing dead time you are an arsehole of the highest magnitude and have done either very serious offences or have multiple pending criminal charges.  I have seen crack heads with over fourteen different criminal charges, all from separate occasions within a half year span, still get released on recognizances.  I could name two clowns currently charged with Attempt Murder that are not in jail.
It goes on. 
Anyone can go to court with their crackhead pal and sign a surety for any amount of money.  When the a$$hat breaches yet again and gets put in jail again the money is NEVER claimed.  And cash bonds are beyond rare for Canadian citizens. 
BTW, lawyers are only expensive for the regular citizens.  For the lowest layer of protoplasm they are always free, despite the money they make dealing drugs or breaking into homes.  They aren't required to spend their welfare money on it either.  Our tax dollars hard at work.
There is more, but I was up at 0530 and am up again at the same time every day this week.   

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote from ZC,
The other cute one is letting their guy stay in jail because they know he will get double time credit for dead time.  There is nowhere in law that says anybody should get double time credit, it is just a "thing" that the judges made up and continue to allow.  Ignoring the fact that if you are doing dead time you are an arsehole of the highest magnitude and have done either very serious offences or have multiple pending criminal charges.


Of course don't forget the TO area judges give 341 if scumbag was at the Don Jail.....

[zipperhead_cop]

Frigging triple time.  Go to the Don for your sentance for first degree murder and be out in nine years.  Good times.