Author Topic: The CC-130-J Hercules Merged Thread  (Read 157674 times)

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Offline MarkOttawa

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The CC-130-J Hercules Merged Thread
« on: November 22, 2006, 10:33:07 »
Lockheed wins $4.9B contract
Tories quietly pick U.S. aerospace giant to replace Hercules

Ottawa Citizen, Nov. 22
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=bc42b975-f7b7-47ad-ad14-3ecd961501c5&k=1477

A certain reporter, for some reason, never mentions that the A400M is actually being made by a company named Airbus.
http://www.airbusmilitary.com/

One wonders why.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/21/AR2006112100492.html

Quote
The Conservative government has quietly named Lockheed Martin's C-130J aircraft as the winner of a $4.9-billion bid to replace the military's aging Hercules transport planes.

The U.S. aerospace giant was informed of the government's decision on Monday, although there has been no official government announcement about the selection of the C-130J for the project.

Despite the government secrecy, the choice of the C-130J as the military's new tactical transport aircraft doesn't come as a surprise to those in the aerospace industry. Although the Conservative government maintained that the competition was open to all bidders and fair, the project requirements automatically eliminated the European-built A400M aircraft, the main competition to the C-130J.

The recently issued statement of qualification for the new aircraft called for a test flight sometime this year. The A400M is now being built and won't be able to fly until 2008.

Defence Department officials also declined several invitations from A400M manufacturer EADS to visit the aircraft's production line as well as view the high-tech flight simulator that has been built for the plane. The same officials did, however, spend extensive time test flying the C-130J last month [well, they would wouldn't they as it actually is flying]...

The Canadian government will spend $3.2 billion to buy 17 of the aircraft and another $1.7 billion for a 20-year service contract for the planes. Lockheed, as the prime contractor, will be responsible for the maintenance contract as well.

The contract for the planes is expected to be signed by the summer of 2007. The first aircraft will be required to be delivered three years after that [seems a bit long to me]...

Supporters of the A400M argue that the C-130J is older technology and the EADS aircraft is a new generation plane that will be operated in the future by a large number of Canada's allies.

But military officials counter that the aging Hercules planes needed to be replaced as soon as possible and they had concerns about whether the A400M could meet delivery schedules...

Mark
Ottawa


« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 14:33:53 by kratz »
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline Thucydides

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Re: C-130J selected
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2006, 11:01:30 »
The experience civilian operators are having with delays to the A 380 superjumbo project should serve as a warning as well, since Airbus is unable to service "real" customers, many of whom are dropping their orders after being told there will be up to two years delay in receiving their planes.

Airlines cancelling their orders means lost revenues for Airbus, which should be a huge incentive for the company to get sorted, but sadly this does not seem to be happening.

Far better Canada buy into a "real" airplane rather than a paper one.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Astrodog

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Re: C-130J selected
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2006, 13:15:40 »
Agreed, glad to see at least we've learned from taking it on the chin with the cormie, why stray from the tried and tested airframe?
Aspiring Zoomie

Offline newfin

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Re: C-130J selected
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2006, 13:44:57 »
Best news I've heard all week.  I am in the "a bird in the hand..." side of the camp.  Why does it take so long to get a contract in Lockheed's hands?

It's truly great news.  Finally some movement.

However we can all be a little ashamed that we have 40 year old aircraft as frontline cargo and troop haulers.  This process should have been started at least 10 years ago.
I can't believe we finally have a government that takes the military seriously.

Offline Thucydides

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Re: C-130J selected
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2006, 14:29:37 »
However we can all be a little ashamed that we have 40 year old aircraft as frontline cargo and troop haulers.  This process should have been started at least 10 years ago.

That had to do with a government that was elected 13 years ago...........
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

jimmy742

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Re: C-130J selected
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2006, 19:04:33 »
At last... Some of Hercs were already old when I was in, and that was over 20 years ago. I understand servicing had its challenges then, I can just imagine now.

I'm hoping that a government to government deal is also being considered so we can start retiring the older birds asap.


Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: C-130J selected
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2006, 19:44:36 »
>the project requirements automatically eliminated the European-built A400M aircraft, the main competition to the C-130J.

In the same way, the requirements automatically eliminated every potential airframe not currently in production, past or future.  What a drool-on-the-chin statement of the obvious.
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.

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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: C-130J selected
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2006, 08:29:23 »
Update (full text subscriber only): Lockheed Martin says it will try to speed up delivery (old Hercs are failing fast but lets consider the A400M anyway) and DND confirms that the J has been selected. What remains are formal contract negotiations. Why they will take until next summer is quite beyond me.

Quote
Lockheed Martin is hoping to speed up delivery of its C-130J transport aircraft to the Canadian Forces to help deal with military concerns that some of its aging Hercules planes will have to be pulled from service sooner than anticipated.

The Canadian Forces is estimating that up to 14 Hercules may be grounded early because of excessive wear. The aircraft were scheduled to be withdrawn from service in 2010...

But Jack Crisler, a Lockheed Martin vice-president, said the firm is going to try to see if it can start deliveries earlier than that.
"We're giving them a range of ideas that would take it anywhere, maybe even down to 24 months, depending on what they want to do," he said...

...military officials yesterday confirmed the information in Tuesday's Citizen article that the C-130J had been selected as the only plane that can meet the Canadian Forces tactical airlift needs.
"We can now confirm that Lockheed Martin is the successful respondent of the solicitation of interest and qualification," said military spokesman Lieut. Adam Thomson. "It is now a matter of entering into negotiations with Lockheed for the acquisition of the C-130J aircraft."

Government officials expect a contract to be signed by the summer of 2007...

Mark
Ottawa
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Offline geo

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Re: C-130J selected
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2006, 08:53:59 »
Given that several countries apparently have problems with the J's electronics suite (UK and the US) giving everyone time to get their act together and get the bugs out is not a bad idea.

If we have to keep our Hercs up in the air for a little while longer, stock up on bailing wire and gun tape.
Chimo!

Offline Journeyman

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Re: C-130J selected
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2006, 09:02:57 »
...problems.....electronics......UK
Same people involved with the submarine program? (my first bike was a Norton - - I still curse Lucas electrics  >:( )

Offline geo

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Re: C-130J selected
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2006, 16:34:17 »
Lucas - the Prince of darkness...............

WRT the Js electronics - nope, that's all Lockheed.
As stated, the USAF & the RAF have had some issues with taking delivery of Js... have the bugs been ironed out - not sure.

Anyone?
Chimo!

Offline ringo

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Re: C-130J selected
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2006, 23:36:32 »
2 more C-17's should be aquired before Boeing shutsdown the line, 6 C-17 stategic airlifters coming into service before the J's come on line and would relieve a lot of presssure from current airlifter fleet sooner.

As for the A400M, they could be procured to replace the 5 KC-130 and 2 L-130-100? Herc's, I believe these newer model Herc's are to remain in service after 4 planned C-17's and 17 C-130J's are procured.

Offline Thucydides

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Re: C-130J selected
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2006, 00:54:06 »
How does anyone propose to procure a plane which does not exist as a piece of hardware yet?

You can buy C-17's (or ask for the production line to be retooled, but at a quarter billion a pop.....)
You can buy C-130J's
You can buy Il-76M if you are really desperate (or are the buyer for the Russian Air Force)
You can buy the one and only AN 70 (as an interesting exhibit in a museum), and "maybe" could get the company to work from the prototype to make a useable aircraft for us.

Or you can pick up lots of shiny brochures on the A400M, and if you are a black belt in origami, maybe you can make one.......
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline geo

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Re: C-130J selected
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2006, 09:00:13 »
With the problems Airbus are having with their various production lines, the A380 delivery is being pushed further and further back.  Given that this is the product that has firm orders in hand, Airbus will divert all of their efforts towards the 380 before moving on to the A400.
Airbus is now dealing with China and looking to open a production line over there - not sure if that is good or bad news???

For the time being, the Herc is the only one standing on the playing field.
Chimo!

Offline Bert

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Re: C-130J selected
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2006, 19:07:49 »
A slight tangent, but Stratfor put this little blurb as part of an intelligence summary today.
Seems India is rounding out their air force.

>
www.stratfor.com
November 28, 2006 13:01

INDIA: Indian air force (IAF) chief SP Tyagi said the IAF is close to finalizing a deal for the acquisition of six Hercules C-130J transport aircraft from Lockheed Martin. The IAF is also working on a deal to purchase 126 multifunctional combat aircraft, including Lockheed Martin's F-16, Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet, Eurofighter's Typhoon, the Swedish Gripen fighter, the French Rafale and the Russian MiG-35.
<

Offline geo

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Re: C-130J selected
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2006, 19:39:02 »
ice big shopping list........
 - given their economy, what are they planning to use for payment I wonder out loud?

(whups, that's right, no pension obligations and no health care...)
Chimo!

aesop081

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Re: C-130J selected
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2006, 19:53:18 »
A slight tangent, but Stratfor put this little blurb as part of an intelligence summary today.
Seems India is rounding out their air force.

>
www.stratfor.com
November 28, 2006 13:01

INDIA: Indian air force (IAF) chief SP Tyagi said the IAF is close to finalizing a deal for the acquisition of six Hercules C-130J transport aircraft from Lockheed Martin. The IAF is also working on a deal to purchase 126 multifunctional combat aircraft, including Lockheed Martin's F-16, Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet, Eurofighter's Typhoon, the Swedish Gripen fighter, the French Rafale and the Russian MiG-35.
<

Those are the contenders for the contract.......the Indian AF is not buying all of these models

Offline geo

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Re: C-130J selected
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2006, 20:01:32 »
Ahhhhhhhhh now it makes sense
Chimo!

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: C-130J selected
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2006, 09:52:51 »
The latest from a certain journalist (reprinted under the Fair Dealings provision of the Copyright Act):

DND report questions $4.9-billion plane plan
Super Hercules lacks lift capacity to be workhorse aircraft

Ottawa Citizen, Dec. 14
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=daedd90b-eaf5-4a33-9347-196b34243501

Quote
The military aircraft Canada has selected as its new transport workhorse has received poor reviews from some countries now using the plane and has significant limitations in what it can do, according to a Defence Department report produced last year.

Another 2005 briefing presented to Chief of the Defence Staff Gen. Rick Hillier also details that the Lockheed Martin C-130J Super Hercules is limited in how high and fast it can fly and would require a significant change in the amount of support needed to run a transport aircraft fleet.

The records, obtained by the Citizen under the Access to Information law, outline the divisions within the Forces about the C-130J, selected last month as the winner of the $4.9-billion tactical airlift program.

Some officers are strong supporters of the aircraft and believe it is the right plane to replace the military's aging fleet of C-130 Hercules.

Others, however, have raised concerns about the aircraft. The 2005 draft study issued by the Defence Department outlined serious deficiencies with the C-130J that were identified by the U.S. government, including inadequate range and payload. "The bottom line with regards to the C130J is that although it looks like the venerable old C130, it has yet to officially achieve the same level of operational capability as its forbears," the report concludes.

It points out the C-130J has "significant operational limitations" as well as noting that informal correspondence obtained from some of the airplane's users is "almost universally negative."

The names of the militaries that provided their opinions on the C-130J have been censored from the document for reasons of national security.

Lockheed Martin argues that any claims about problems with the aircraft are old news and the planes are performing flawlessly in combat operations with a number of militaries.

In the April 2005 briefing to Gen. Hillier, air force officers outlined pros and cons of the C-130J. They detailed the positive aspects of the C-130J, noting it has an advanced technology cockpit, improved engines and a versatile airframe. It has also successfully completed a high number of combat missions.

But the same briefing pointed out that the plane's maximum altitude is limited and it uses fuel at a higher rate than advertised. The purchase of the aircraft would also require "significant change in infrastructure and support," including engineering, training and maintenance. In addition, the cruise speed advertised by Lockheed Martin can't be reached without "significantly impacting engine life," according to the briefing.

The officers used the briefing to argue against using the C-130J in any kind of long-range strategic role.

On Tuesday in the Commons, Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor said there are no technical problems whatsoever with the C-130J. He staunchly defended the aircraft, noting that the Canadian Forces picked it as the best to meet its needs.

Defence Department spokesman Jeremy Sales said yesterday that the procurement process that selected the C-130J is competitive, fair and transparent.

"Like any new piece of equipment, the C-130J has had some development challenges," Mr. Sales said.

"The aircraft is moving towards becoming a mature platform that will meet the needs of the Canadian Forces."

Opposition MPs have questioned why the Harper government is spending $4.9 billion to purchase an aircraft they claim is essentially similar to some of the C-130 Hercules now flying with the Canadian Forces.

Lockheed Martin points out that its aircraft meets all the performance and operational requirements set out by Canada.

"As the only compliant respondent, Lockheed Martin is pleased to meet Canada's urgent need to replace its aging C-130 fleet," said company spokesman Peter Simmons.

The Canadian government will spend $3.2 billion to buy 17 of the aircraft and another $1.7 billion for a 20-year in-service support contract for the planes.

Lockheed Martin, as the prime contractor, will be responsible for the maintenance contract as well.

But some air force planners have questioned the need to purchase the C-130J. In an October 2004 presentation made to senior military leaders, they argued the air force's priorities should be to buy four C-17 strategic lift planes as well as immediately replace the aging Buffalo aircraft used for search-and-rescue missions. The giant C-17s, along with the newer model C-130s already in Canadian Forces inventory, could handle the military's transport needs, they argued.

Some air force officers see the purchase of new search-and-rescue planes as critical to ensuring the service can continue to provide that capability to Canadians, particularly those on the West Coast.

Instead, the government proceeded with a plan to buy the C-17 and the C-130J.

Negotiations are ongoing on those two programs, but contracts are expected to be signed by next year.

The search-and-rescue aircraft replacement program has been stalled, but it is expected to be included in the defence capability plan to be released in the coming months.

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline cplcaldwell

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Re: C-130J selected
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2006, 10:02:53 »
I am not sure here but it seems to me...

When the 'J ' was first put into early deployment (96-97) both LMCo and DoD agreed that the system would be accepted in a phased testing arrangement. In this segmented approach the tests would proceed through phases 1A, 1B and 2.

Now there were issues in 1A and 1B. IIRC, these had to do with software deficiencies and some maintainability issues (to wit, forward maintainability was in question due to training and equipment provisions).

Given these problems, plans were put in place to correct the deficiencies and the system was to be tested this year to verify the first issues were taken care of.

This was the agreed upon testing regimen.

So I am having trouble with the assertion that the system is deficient. It seems to me that issues were identified, a plan was formulated, a date for retest was agreed upon, and 'press on'.

It seems to me that the issue is either still in the balance, or that it has been recently sorted out. Quoting two and three year old memos without stating the path forward does not seem to be a responsible reporting of the facts.

Thoughts?
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: C-130J selected
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2006, 10:09:53 »
....... Quoting two and three year old memos without stating the path forward does not seem to be a responsible reporting of the facts.

Thoughts?

Those are my thoughts.
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Offline geo

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Re: C-130J selected
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2006, 12:38:25 »
Hmm... (correct me if I am wrong)
C17s for strategic lift
CC130s for tactical
Buffalos for SAR

They want the gov, to buy the C17s and new Buffs instead of the 130Js
the Herc can (and does) handle SAR
the Buff cannot handle the volume that the Herc is doing soooo....

priority must go to the C17s and the Hercs.  The Buffs or an alternative can be acquired at a later date IMHO.  Also, as we are getting the C17s we shouldn't have to concern ourselves quite so much about the strategic capabilities (or lack thereof) of the 130Js.

... then again, I'm just a guy in green looking way, way up in the sky  :warstory: :bullet: :cdn:
Chimo!

Offline a78jumper

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Re: C-130J selected
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2006, 12:58:12 »
The Buffalo is out of production, and in any event a study conducted years ago concluded a four engined Herc cost roughly the same amount as the notoiously unreliable(from a power plant standpoint) two engined Buffalo, about the only thing it was deficient in was the extreme STOL capabilities. The decision was made at that point to run down the Buff fleet except for those in Comox, as they apparently require some STOL capacity there.

Offline C1Dirty

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Re: C-130J selected
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2006, 16:02:15 »
At the risk of stating the obvious...didn't the Liberals officially plan to purchase the J's just prior to the last election? 




Offline geo

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Re: C-130J selected
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2006, 16:16:34 »
C1 - they are talking about Opposition MPs without specifying the colours

Blue, Baby blue, Red, Orange, whatever...........
Chimo!