Author Topic: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?  (Read 38173 times)

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Offline Criscuit

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Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« on: January 03, 2007, 18:56:16 »
If anyone can point me in the right direction, that'd rock.  Just looking to make some money on the weekends to help pay bills and save up for a future w/ children.  Any advice / links?  Thanks guys and gals.

 Willie :salute:

Offline BYT Driver

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2007, 19:01:49 »
Part-time on weekends and nights...ok
Full time..no-no.
And none of it can interferr with your "day job"
I drove taxi once to make ends meet then the 9er got a transient job at DQ.  Can't the wife work?
Cheers

Offline MJP

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2007, 19:02:13 »
Yes you can with your CoC permission, submit a memo up the chain.  Lots of guys I know have second jobs ranging from security to working at home depot with the common one being a bouncer.

Hope is not a valid COA

aesop081

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2007, 19:04:06 »
Yes you can with your CoC permission, submit a memo up the chain.  Lots of guys I know have second jobs ranging from security to working at home depot with the common one being a bouncer.



if you pick bouncer or anything like that, beware......you get hurt.....you're on your own if its a career ending injury.

Offline GO!!!

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2007, 19:04:35 »
If anyone can point me in the right direction, that'd rock.  Just looking to make some money on the weekends to help pay bills and save up for a future w/ children.  Any advice / links?  Thanks guys and gals.

 Willie :salute:

Write up a memo to your CO asking permission to take another job. IME, they are usually granted, and this means that when you get knifed working as a bouncer the CF will take care of your medical, and you'll still get paid.

You are not permitted to work another job without the permission of your chain of command.
No leader was ever hated for being too hard, but a great many were for attempting to appear that way.

Offline Criscuit

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2007, 19:33:52 »
Awesome, thanks folks.  Got exactly what I'm looking for there.  Appreciate it.

Offline 3rd Horseman

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2007, 23:21:24 »
As a few have stated here asking your CoC is prudent, but I have never seen any code, legislation or order that says you cant. Does anyone have a link or quote from a CF document that says you cant? IME I have conducted more than one investigation into a complaint about a soldier working outside the CF and in each case it resulted in no action due to a lack of CF rules to stop it, did I miss somthing or have the rules changed? 
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Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2007, 23:23:09 »
As a few have stated here asking your CoC is prudent, but I have never seen any code, legislation or order that says you cant. Does anyone have a link or quote from a CF document that says you cant? IME I have conducted more than one investigation into a complaint about a soldier working outside the CF and in each case it resulted in no action due to a lack of CF rules to stop it, did I miss somthing or have the rules changed? 

http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/cfpn/pdf/cfpn9_06_e.pdf

See top of page 3.  I guess you weren't consulted.

Quote
Outside employment could lead to COI

By Mr. Marc Potter, Senior Analyst, Conflict of Interest (COI)

A second job, separate from your military duties, could have serious implications for the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces (DND/CF).

A recent decision by the Canadian International Trade Tribunal (CITT) sheds light on a new risk related to the awarding of government contracts – the outside employment of CF personnel and DND employees.

In Calian vs PWGSC, the CITT ruled that the hiring of two non-commissioned members (NCMs) by Valcom Inc, a competitor, created enough of an apparent COI to render the procurement process invalid. It is worth noting that the two NCMs in question were not involved in the contracts procurement process and had no way of influencing it. The CITT concluded that the simple fact that a potential supplier had hired two members of the department involved gave it unfair advantage, and so created a situation of COI.

“Up until now, conflicts of interest arising from outside employment mainly affected the reputation of the organization,” says Colonel Yvon Desjardins, Defence Ethics Program Director. “The CITT decision not only recognized that the risk was real, but stressed the need for greater caution to ensure that the outside employment of CF members and DND employees does not jeopardize the procurement process.”

As a result of the CITT decision, DND and CF managers must show greater vigilance and implement measures to help prevent situations that could lead to the potential cancellation of contracts.

“Commanding officers are not necessarily aware of their staff’s outside employment,” Colonel Desjardins says. “These jobs pose a serious risk, and managers must exercise greater control over them. A contract cancelled due to a conflict of interest not only harms the reputation of the organization but also results in hundreds of hours of lost work and possibly thousands of dollars already invested in the project.”

Before starting a second job, you must obtain written authorization from your commanding officer, as outlined in Queen’s Regulations and Orders (QR&O) 19-42 Civil Employment. If your CO approves, and your second job is with a company directly or indirectly involved in defence-related matters, you must declare it by submitting a Confidential Report to the Conflict of Interest Section of the Defence Ethics Program.

When your Confidential Report is analyzed, you may be contacted for clarification of your report. Most often, cases are reviewed and closed within three business days.

 Read Calian vs PWGSC at www.citt-tcce.gc.ca/procure/determin/pr2g008_e.asp.

 Consult QR&O 19-42 at www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qr_o/vol1/tofc19_e.asp or at http://admfincs.mil.ca/qr_o/vol1/tofc19_e.asp for information about civilian employment.

 Learn about the Defence Ethics Program at www.forces.gc.ca/ethics/index_e.asp or at http://ethics.mil.ca/index_e.asp.

 Find a downloadable version of the Confidential Report at www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/daod/7021/forms/form1a_e.doc or at http://admfincs.mil.ca/admfincs/subjects/daod/7021/f orms/form1a_e.doc.
 For information or advice on issues related to conflicts of interest, contact Mr. Marc Potter at Potter.MH@forces.gc.ca or at 613-995-0229.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2007, 23:31:13 by Michael O'Leary »

Offline S.M.A.

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2007, 23:42:46 »
Why don't you just  sign up to a reserve unit? Which is more important to you- an active CF career or a civilian job outside? If it's the latter, maybe you really should just do the reserves.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2007, 23:47:35 by CougarKing »
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Offline 3rd Horseman

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2007, 00:46:26 »
Michael,

    That was a good read particularly the Calian article. Funny how that company is calling the Valcom team out but is blackend by its own actions in the past that are similar.

  (QR&O) 19-42 Civil Employment has not changed and it did not stand up under legal test  a few years ago and as such I would suspect it would not now. The key issue is that the member is not compelled to act, while the CO is given the authority to react if he deems the issue breeches the article.

Confidential Report has changed, in the past it related to full Cols and above had to report the remainder should but were not compelled.

Conflict of Interest Section of the Defence Ethics Program appears to have some amendments and  again it appears to apply to all rather than Col and above as in the past. But it is written rather weakly.

All in all very prudent to ask CoC so one does not have to fight the issue after the fact.

Sanctuary is as hard to find and as difficult to walk on as a razors edge

aesop081

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2007, 00:56:29 »
Wether or not it stood the test when you were doing whatever isnt relevant.  Policy has been established and the member is obliged to follow it. He wont be able to say "3rdhorseman on army.ca said it would never hold up" !!!

If he gets turned down by his CoC and wishes to redress the situation thats his choice and then we shall see if it holds up to legal challenge.

Offline Trinity

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2007, 00:56:41 »
Why don't you just  sign up to a reserve unit? Which is more important to you- an active CF career or a civilian job outside? If it's the latter, maybe you really should just do the reserves.

It might not be that simple.

Possibly a member might need a second job to survive due to financial obligation.
A member might have been asked to teach at a local college due to their skills gained in the CF.
I'm sure I could think of other situations in which a member could seek secondary employment.

It's not simply an issue of the member wanting to do a civilian job more than a CF position as you imply.

I don't see this any different than a CF member going to school/university after hours and on weekends.
The priority however is that mon-fri and operationally the CF comes first!!! All extra curricular activities
must be flexible around the CF commitment.
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Offline geo

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2007, 09:53:26 »
Problem with secondary jobs has to do with the fact that it is secondary.

If you are given the nod for deployment or career course you end up having to drop the job, often at last minute.

Make sure you inform your CoC & let your secondary employer know that you may have to leave on short notice.
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Offline reccecrewman

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2007, 07:18:08 »
I took a job as a young Trooper delivering pizza......... I never wrote a memo to my C-o-C. I asked my Troop Warrant if it was OK to take this job on and he said "Not a problem, just remember that you are a soldier first......... your first obligation is to the Regiment."  So off I went.  I did that for about a year and a half because I had a pregnant wife, which turned into a wife and son at home and she couldn't work.  I made about $250-$300 a week which came in handy.  Now I'm a Corporal and the wife is back to work so no more slinging pizza for me.  As stated earlier, some situations come up in which a soldier taking a part time job is a necessary short term solution.  I know that here in Petawawa, about 80-90% of all pizza delivery driver's for either Pizza Pizza or 241 are Military, and they all have different reasons for working there.  I had a Warrant Officer work at the pizza shop with me............  For the life of me I don't know why he was doing it, most of the driver's were of the Private type with young families........

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Offline kincanucks

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2007, 10:36:29 »
Why don't you just  sign up to a reserve unit? Which is more important to you- an active CF career or a civilian job outside? If it's the latter, maybe you really should just do the reserves.

Are you in the military? If yes, Jesus wept.  If not, then stay in your lane whatever that may be.  If someone, who is in the CF, thinks that in order to make ends meet they need to find other employment than all the power to them.  Where do you come off criticizing someone who is just trying to get by or who wants to do better for their family?  CF personnel, especially the lower ranks, don't always make a crap load of money and it can sometimes be very hard to get by especially with a family.

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Offline S.M.A.

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2007, 10:42:00 »
Are you in the military? If yes, Jesus wept.  If not, then stay in your lane whatever that may be.  If someone, who is in the CF, thinks that in order to make ends meet they need to find other employment than all the power to them.  Where do you come off criticizing someone who is just trying to get by or who wants to do better for their family?  CF personnel, especially the lower ranks, don't always make a crap load of money and it can sometimes be very hard to get by especially with a family.

HH and DA

Kincanuks,

Look, with all due respect, I am well aware of how hard it is sometimes to make ends meet as servicemember, although I am a civvy. I was only suggesting and did not mean my post to be taken the wrong way.  I never said I had the right to impose on anyone.

« Last Edit: January 11, 2007, 10:44:33 by CougarKing »
Our Country
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"A leader is best when people barely know he exists, when his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: We did it ourselves."   - Lao Zi (老子)
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"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
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Offline BYT Driver

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2007, 10:53:46 »
I'd like to add that if you do put up a memo to your CO, be weary that not eveyone in the unit chain gets to see it and question your reasons.  When I drove for Petawawa taxi back when, I didn't do the memo, just had my OC's permission to do so(I was already seeing him for financial counseling) Soon! the whole chain knew and I was embarassed in front of my peers. 
Mind you, I later politely told that OC what I thought of his verbal diarrhea and gave up the job that spring.
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Offline Shadow

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2007, 12:56:11 »
I worked as a manager at Blockbuster for 4 years while I was an NCM.  The company was great in that I went on two tours overseas and they held on to my position for me while I was gone (My manager called Head Office, and they said "She's in the military?  Give her all the time off she needs").  I worked on weekends and Monday nights and it never interfered with my military employment.  I even rented movies to my CO!

The only thing I would watch out for, in your looking for another job, and you should examine the links already provided to the QR&O's etc is the implications of a second job being related to your military job.  If you are military nurse for example, and the CF paid for your schooling/training, then you are not allowed to work civie-side as a nurse.  Conflict of interest.

Hope this helps.
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Offline Simian Turner

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2007, 13:55:19 »
Shadow said, "If you are military nurse for example, and the CF paid for your schooling/training, then you are not allowed to work civie-side as a nurse.  Conflict of interest." 

This not true, if you are a military, doctor, physiotherapist, pharmacist or nurse you may work during off-duty time for civilian employers.  You are not covered under the Crown Liability Act during civilian employment (therefore you need separate malpractice insurance), however, your license to practice is paid for by DND/CF. This s good way for personnel in non-patient care positions to maintain their competency and earn some extra funds.

Doctors may not legally charge for treating military patients while working in a non-military environment.

The only time you should require your chain of command or DND's permission is if the work you are doing is risky, such as a parachuting instructor or a race car driver.  I, and many others, have worked as ushers or security for concerts, football, or hockey teams in their venues (stadiums/arenas).  A few extra bucks and a front row seat, priceless fun times.

If there is any chance of a conflict of interest then as stated you should seek permission, otherwise enjoy the extra funds and work experience.
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Offline Shadow

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2007, 14:15:48 »
Gunner98,
Thanks.  That is interesting.  When we were at University, the SEM from Borden told us specifically (more for the ROTPs who were getting paid very little) that they were welcome to take on a civilian job on their own time, but that it could not have anything to do with the training they received from the military.
The argument was that the military paid for these members to become nurses/engineers what-not, and therefore the member is obligated to work in that capacity only for the military.
I will have to find out what they were using as a reference for that...
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Offline Trinity

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2007, 14:18:57 »
In Pet...

the pizza delivery person the other night was also a reg force service member.

Good on em.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2007, 15:36:45 »
Gunner98,
Thanks.  That is interesting.  When we were at University, the SEM from Borden told us specifically (more for the ROTPs who were getting paid very little) that they were welcome to take on a civilian job on their own time, but that it could not have anything to do with the training they received from the military.
The argument was that the military paid for these members to become nurses/engineers what-not, and therefore the member is obligated to work in that capacity only for the military.
I will have to find out what they were using as a reference for that...


I think I see where the confusion lies.  Shadow, you are talking about 'Students' at a CF School taking secondary jobs, before they have completed their CF Trg,  while everyone else is talking about secondary jobs for 'Trained' Serving Members, who are already posted to a Unit
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Offline GO!!!

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2007, 23:24:16 »
I will have to find out what they were using as a reference for that...

That would indeed be interesting, especially given the large numbers of CF trained professionals who practice openly and successfully without sanction right now.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2007, 17:16:04 »
Hate to try and correct you; but I believe he is referring to people like me at university under a subsidised education program, not students at 'CF Schools' (like CFSAL, CFSEME etc) but rather students at a civilian university.

I work as a bouncer here to make some extra cash, meet people and entertain myself. I highly recommend to all ROTP candidates at civvie-u to go get a job during the year.

[Mr. Picky] If you are a 'student' in a CF School, that includes RMC and in addition those ROTP 'students' who have managed to go to Civvie Universities.  You fall into that category, right?
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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2007, 22:49:34 »
[Mr. Picky] If you are a 'student' in a CF School, that includes RMC and in addition those ROTP 'students' who have managed to go to Civvie Universities.  You fall into that category, right?

I'd say he's a civilian student with the CF subsidising him during the school year, and employing him in the summer.

Who enforces the CSD for ROTP?
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Offline Simian Turner

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2007, 22:55:40 »
Each university should have a ULO and a Senior ROTP student (one of the senior class/year) appointed to provide guidance and oversight.
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Offline JesseWZ

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2007, 22:59:25 »
Not to mention the Subsidized Education Manager (SEM) But we only see him once a year for the annual briefing.
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Offline portcullisguy

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2007, 07:32:47 »
I took a job as a young Trooper delivering pizza......... [. . .]  I know that here in Petawawa, about 80-90% of all pizza delivery driver's for either Pizza Pizza or 241 are Military, and they all have different reasons for working there. 

And God Bless the pizza places in Pet for having ex and current military drivers.  I am told you can even have a pizza delivered to a grid reference, during an ex.  Although if your RQM staff feel generous, picking it all up with a van usually isn't a problem...   :P
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Offline HFXCrow

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2007, 08:14:41 »
(PIZZA to Grid Refs) I worked at Range Control in Petawawa for a year in the late eighties (1989). That is an urban myth. ( I am sure somebody has a story contradicting this)

The worst offenders for having POMV in the training area was the leadership courses and a certain crusty RCR WO, who will remain unnamed.

Back to the post, some people in HFX work as commissionaires on the weekend. I am personally way to lazy to do that. I dread 0600 Sunday Hockey practices for my son.

I wish their was more educational opportunities for motivated people on the weekend. I would be more open to something like that.

Crow enjoying last day of leave waiting for the freezing rain in HFX.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2007, 08:26:56 by HFXCrow »
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Offline 211RadOp

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2007, 08:25:25 »
In Pet...

the pizza delivery person the other night was also a reg force service member.

Good on em.

I've been doing this in Kingston for almost 1 1/2 years now.
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Offline Klinkaroo

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2010, 20:48:15 »
Tried a search and couldn't find anything relevant.

Does anyone know the reference regarding working for the forces full time (Regular Force) and working part-time (I.E. Delivering Pizza) to make a few extra dollars when I'm not busy. As long as it doesn't affect my Job performance would there be any problems?

Thanks

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2010, 20:59:24 »
It is being done.
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Offline MJP

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2010, 21:14:49 »
No, as long as you inform your CoC and don't allow it to interfere with your mil job it isn't an issue.  I haven't seen any "official regs" like CFAO/DAODs on the issue.  Usually if I have seen it mentioned it was on unit routine orders.
Hope is not a valid COA

Offline Klinkaroo

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2010, 21:25:34 »
Aye thanks,

More house down payment money :)

Offline SGT-RMSCLK

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2010, 23:08:04 »
And just so you are aware.  If you are seriously injured or killed while at your "civi" job you MAY not be eligible for any military benefits.

Offline Wookilar

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2010, 09:34:31 »
And it can depend on what base you are on.
Here in Gagetown, requests to work in bars, especially as bouncers, are increasingly being denied.

Pizza delivery, parts desk at Canadian Tire, sales positions, etc are looked at more favourably by the CoC.

Wook
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Offline Aerobicrunner

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2010, 09:49:05 »
QR&O 19.42 – CIVIL EMPLOYMENT

 
(1) Subject to paragraph (3), no officer or non-commissioned member on full-time service shall engage in any civil employment or undertaking that in the opinion of the member’s commanding officer:
   
  (a) is or is likely to be detrimental to the interests of the Canadian Forces;
     
  (b) reflects or is likely to reflect discredit upon the Canadian Forces; or
     
 
  (c) in the case of members of the Regular Force, is continuous.

    (2) No officer or non-commissioned member on full-time service shall authorize the use of the member’s name or photograph in connection with a commercial product, except so far as the member’s name may be part of a firm name.
   
(3) Except that an officer or non-commissioned member shall not engage in any civil employment or undertaking that reflects or is likely to reflect discredit upon the Canadian Forces, this article does not apply to a member who is :
 
  (a) on leave immediately preceding release; or

  (b) on leave without pay.
 

Offline Greymatters

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2010, 11:26:25 »
And it can depend on what base you are on.
Here in Gagetown, requests to work in bars, especially as bouncers, are increasingly being denied.


Do they at least have licenses to work as security guards in order to work as bouncers?


Offline gcclarke

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2010, 11:54:57 »
CFAO 19-7 also applies.

Quote
CFAO 19-7 -- CIVIL EMPLOYMENT -MILITARY PERSONNEL

1.     This order amplifies  QR&O 19.42.

2.     Subject to para 3, no member on full-time service shall engage in any
organized civil business or undertaking for financial gain on a defence
establishment with other members or their dependants in the course of which
he conducts business or trade, such as:

     a.   insurance, securities or investment selling;

     b.   furniture moving; or

     c.   any other type of transaction selling products or providing
          services.

3.     This order does not preclude a member from engaging in:

     a.   employment in a business or institute operated by
          concessionaires, Canex or canteens;

     b.   an enterprise not specifically detailed in para 2, eg, barbering
          or laundry, which in the opinion of the commanding officer
          provides a beneficial service not otherwise readily available on
          a defence establishment; or

     c.   isolated private transactions such as the sale or advertising for
          sale on a defence establishment or through service media of his
          own real estate, automobile, household furniture, etc.

4.     Unless the approval of NDHQ is obtained, no member on full-time
service shall be employed by or serve as a member or auxiliary member of:

     a.   the Royal Canadian Mounted Police;

     b.   a provincial or municipal police force or any other constabulary
          force; or

     c.   a provincial or municipal emergency planning organization.

5.     No member shall engage in any civil employment or undertaking which
requires the disclosure of information acquired as a result of military
service.

6.     No member shall use the influence of his rank or position in any
private business transactions with other members or their dependants.

7.     Order in Council PC 71/4005 of 18 Aug 50 as amended by Order in
Council PC 98/5322 of 4 Nov 50 authorizes the temporary employment of
members in a civilian capacity during leave or off-duty hours during the
period 1 May to 31 Oct annually, but only if:

     a.   such employment will not interfere with normal military duties;

     b.   authority has been obtained for the employment of additional
          persons for the work to be performed;

     c.   suitably qualified persons are not available for engagement
          locally; and

     d.   the work cannot be delayed until suitably qualified persons
          become available.


(C)                                     1605-19-7 (DPLS)

Issued 8 Jun 79

"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.  Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan ‘Press On’ has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."
- Calvin Coolidge

Offline CountDC

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2010, 13:44:15 »
QR&O 19.42 – CIVIL EMPLOYMENT

(3) Except that an officer or non-commissioned member shall not engage in any civil employment or undertaking that reflects or is likely to reflect discredit upon the Canadian Forces, this article does not apply to a member who is :
 
  (a) on leave immediately preceding release; or

  (b) on leave without pay.

Nice - that means you could take 9 months pata and do a test run for an outside job as pata is LWOP.
“non-commissioned officer (NCO)” means a member holding the rank of sergeant or corporal.

QR&O's

Offline Klinkaroo

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2010, 15:52:21 »
Thanks for the references guys, that's exactly what I was looking for.

Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2010, 16:04:47 »
Aside from the references noted and it is also correct as listed above one had to be RO'd, once approved by the CO for his part-time job, or at least thats was the norm in pre 1995, and also here currently.

When I was with RAA, there was a young male LT who was RO'd as a go-go dancer in a Sydney notorious gay club, big black knee high leather boots and leather hot pants, all good to go (Seinfeld quote "not that there is anything wrong with that").  Info sourced from two of our girls who went in to confirm, ha!

OWDU
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 16:34:46 by Overwatch Downunder »
"You've never lived until you've almost died; as for our freedom, for those of us who have fought for it, life has a flavour the protected will never know." - Anonymous

Offline exgunnertdo

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #42 on: March 27, 2010, 07:58:31 »
Nice - that means you could take 9 months pata and do a test run for an outside job as pata is LWOP.

NO - because on PATA you have to comply with EI rules. Which means any income you earn over about $100/week gets deducted from your EI. I don't know how the top-up portion works, but I would guess it is the same as the EI - you work, they claw back.

(not saying you would do it - but didn't want anyone reading this thread in the future to think it would be OK)
"Leave the Artillerymen alone, they are an obstinate lot. . ."
"God fights on the side with the best artillery"
- Napoleon

Offline CountDC

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #43 on: March 29, 2010, 09:57:05 »
by EI rules you just have to report the earnings to EI and they will adjust your payment accordingly. The CF considers PATA to be a period of LWOP and tops off your EI entitlement to 93% of your pay.  Nothing in there for recovery action if you work during that period in fact there is nothing even requiring you to report working during the period. You are still considered on PATA Leave from your regular job and to report back to work at the end of it.  If you do not return and fulfill the required period of employment then both the EI and top up are recovered from you.

Myself I wouldn't do it - I would rather go fishing and camping, play some computer games, have a nice vacation.  D9 though tells me I am not allowed - I have to spend the time with the kids ;D
“non-commissioned officer (NCO)” means a member holding the rank of sergeant or corporal.

QR&O's

Offline PMedMoe

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #44 on: March 29, 2010, 10:15:26 »
I have to spend the time with the kids
And isn't that the purpose of MATA/PATA?  Truthfully, if I found out a member on MATA/PATA leave was working full time, I'd be curious as to why they took the leave in the first place.  Just because you're "entitled" to it, doesn't mean you have to take it.
"A good traveler has no fixed plans, and is not intent on arriving".
~ Lao Tzu~

Offline CountDC

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #45 on: March 29, 2010, 10:58:32 »
Will being as you seem to want to be techical about it,  no - the purpose of MATA/PATA is so that you can spend the time recovering (MATA), bonding with your new child and getting all the little things involved with having a new child done not so you can spend time with the kids you already have.

You could be curious but so far I have not seen a regulation that would enable you to do anything about it.  Certainly wasn't mentioned in the briefing I had last week.  It is another policy that left things too wide open.  I think they should change the regulation to include a clause that you are not allowed to take an outside job during the period and if it is found that you did your leave would be cancelled and all top off recovered.  The tricky part is that the CF does not have the control over MATA/PATA leave to deny or cancel it for other than imperative military requirements.  We would have to convince the government to change the policy.  I have a feeling no one has the appetite for that right now.

I will spend my PATA mainly taking care of the kids we already have and doing the house work(including washing diapers) while D9 mainly takes care of the addition and recovers. 

hmmm just realized we seem to have hijacked this thread.
“non-commissioned officer (NCO)” means a member holding the rank of sergeant or corporal.

QR&O's

Offline PMedMoe

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #46 on: March 29, 2010, 11:04:11 »
Will being as you seem to want to be techical about it,  no - the purpose of MATA/PATA is so that you can spend the time recovering (MATA), bonding with your new child and getting all the little things involved with having a new child done not so you can spend time with the kids you already have.
Okay, so not spending time with the kids you already have, but with the new one.  Again, why would someone stop working full-time, only to go to work full-time?  Not trying to be "technical", just seems like bad logic, is all.

You could be curious but so far I have not seen a regulation that would enable you to do anything about it.
Never said I would (or could) do anything about it, I'd just be shaking my head.   ;)

Anyway, back on topic.
"A good traveler has no fixed plans, and is not intent on arriving".
~ Lao Tzu~

Offline CountDC

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #47 on: March 29, 2010, 13:04:57 »
Okay, so not spending time with the kids you already have, but with the new one.  Again, why would someone stop working full-time, only to go to work full-time?  Not trying to be "technical", just seems like bad logic, is all.
Never said I would (or could) do anything about it, I'd just be shaking my head.   ;)

Anyway, back on topic.

1. test the waters

2. money - some trades could actually make more money during that period between the top up and wages paid at temp job.

I agree with the head shaking - am about to do my third pata and sure as hell won't be working at a job.  9 months of no work outside the house is great to me. 

Back to the topic.

Why take a second job to begin with.  If you have a family then you should spend that time with the family.  You will lose enough time with them as it is simply due to the military.  If you are single then you should be able to make it with your military pay for sure.  If you can't then you need financial counselling not a second job. I tried it for one year and it was no fun - hardly saw the family and when I did I was exhausted and cranky.  Gave it up, looked at the budget, got control of it and we are a lot better off.
“non-commissioned officer (NCO)” means a member holding the rank of sergeant or corporal.

QR&O's

Offline cek

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2013, 21:56:42 »
Hi I have a quick question... Am I able to work a part time job on the books working nights for a couple months until I get back onto my feet financially?  I am non deployable and work normal hours.  The job is also temporary so if something came up I would be able to stop working at any time. 

I'm stuck at Pte pay at the moment, and am getting out soon for medical.  Wife can't work, and we have 3 kids + are on food bank hampers at the moment.  Made a lot of stupid mistakes with credit cards a couple years ago and am now trying to pay it off + supporting a family.  SISIP also can't help because I'm getting out so soon.  THanks for any help.

MikeL

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #49 on: July 01, 2013, 21:58:53 »
You would have to speak with your chain of command about seeking part time work, I believe the CO must approve it.  AFAIK, it may be allowed provided it does not interfere with your Military work, and it isn't as a bouncer, reflects poorly on the CF, etc. 
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 22:16:58 by -Skeletor- »

Offline cek

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #50 on: July 01, 2013, 22:10:30 »
Thanks. What would actually happen though if you start getting reportable income from a part time job?

MikeL

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #51 on: July 01, 2013, 22:13:42 »
What would actually happen though if you start getting reportable income from a part time job?
What do you mean?

Also,  have you spoken with JPSU on your base/area?  Not sure if they can help you out, but it might be worth looking into.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 22:24:44 by -Skeletor- »

Offline cek

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #52 on: July 01, 2013, 22:30:42 »
What do you mean?

Also,  have you spoken with JPSU on your base/area?  Not sure if they can help you out, but it might be worth looking into.

I was just under the impression that you're not allowed to work or make any money while getting paid by the CF.  I report to JPSU at the moment.  I'll ask them but they may try to push that "return to civilian work" program where the employer can't pay you.

Offline MJP

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #53 on: July 01, 2013, 23:07:57 »
I was just under the impression that you're not allowed to work or make any money while getting paid by the CF.  I report to JPSU at the moment.  I'll ask them but they may try to push that "return to civilian work" program where the employer can't pay you.

Lots of people hold PT jobs or run businesses on the side while serving.  There are no real issues as long as a few simple criteria are met.  One being that you have gained permission/told your CoC via a memo.  Second that both you and your other employer realize that the CF comes first.  As Skeletor has pointed out the job should not reflect poorly on the ethos of the CF.

As for the money piece there are no worries.  Money earned is reported to the CRA not the CF.  You simply just have an extra t4 slip for when you do taxes.
Hope is not a valid COA

Offline Shamrock

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #54 on: July 02, 2013, 07:06:14 »
Thanks. What would actually happen though if you start getting reportable income from a part time job?

QR&O 19.42 - 19.42 – CIVIL EMPLOYMENT
   19.42 – EMPLOI CIVIL
 
(1) Subject to paragraph (3), no officer or non-commissioned member on full-time service shall engage in any civil employment or undertaking that in the opinion of the member’s commanding officer:
   
  (a) is or is likely to be detrimental to the interests of the Canadian Forces;
 
  (b) reflects or is likely to reflect discredit upon the Canadian Forces; or
 
  (c) in the case of members of the Regular Force, is continuous.
 
(2) No officer or non-commissioned member on full-time service shall authorize the use of the member’s name or photograph in connection with a commercial product, except so far as the member’s name may be part of a firm name.
 
(3) Except that an officer or non-commissioned member shall not engage in any civil employment or undertaking that reflects or is likely to reflect discredit upon the Canadian Forces, this article does not apply to a member who is :
 
  (a) on leave immediately preceding release; or
 
  (b) on leave without pay.
 
(1) Sous réserve de l’alinéa (3), aucun officier ou militaire du rang en service à plein temps ne doit occuper un emploi civil ni exploiter une entreprise civile lorsque, selon le cas, de l’avis de son commandant, cet emploi ou cette entreprise :

     a) est ou sera vraisemblablement préjudiciable aux intérêts des Forces canadiennes;

     b) jette ou jettera vraisemblablement le discrédit sur les Forces canadiennes;

     c) dans le cas de militaires de la force régulière, est à temps continu.

   (2) Aucun officier ou militaire du rang servant à plein temps ne doit autoriser l’emploi de son nom ou de sa photo en rapport avec un produit commercial, sauf dans la mesure où son nom ferait partie d’une raison sociale.

   (3) Sauf qu’il ne doit pas occuper un emploi civil ni exploiter une entreprise civile qui jette ou jettera vraisemblablement du discrédit sur les Forces canadiennes, le présent article ne s’applique pas à un officier ou militaire du rang qui est :

     a) soit en congé précédant immédiatement sa libération;

     b) soit en congé sans solde.

Offline Tcm621

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #55 on: July 02, 2013, 08:10:05 »
Also relavent is CFAO 19-7

Quote
1.     This order amplifies  QR&O 19.42.

2.     Subject to para 3, no member on full-time service shall engage in any
organized civil business or undertaking for financial gain on a defence
establishment with other members or their dependants in the course of which
he conducts business or trade, such as:

     a.   insurance, securities or investment selling;

     b.   furniture moving; or

     c.   any other type of transaction selling products or providing
          services.

3.     This order does not preclude a member from engaging in:

     a.   employment in a business or institute operated by
          concessionaires, Canex or canteens;

     b.   an enterprise not specifically detailed in para 2, eg, barbering
          or laundry, which in the opinion of the commanding officer
          provides a beneficial service not otherwise readily available on
          a defence establishment; or

     c.   isolated private transactions such as the sale or advertising for
          sale on a defence establishment or through service media of his
          own real estate, automobile, household furniture, etc.

4.     Unless the approval of NDHQ is obtained, no member on full-time
service shall be employed by or serve as a member or auxiliary member of:

     a.   the Royal Canadian Mounted Police;

     b.   a provincial or municipal police force or any other constabulary
          force; or

     c.   a provincial or municipal emergency planning organization.

5.     No member shall engage in any civil employment or undertaking which
requires the disclosure of information acquired as a result of military
service.

6.     No member shall use the influence of his rank or position in any
private business transactions with other members or their dependants.

7.     Order in Council PC 71/4005 of 18 Aug 50 as amended by Order in
Council PC 98/5322 of 4 Nov 50 authorizes the temporary employment of
members in a civilian capacity during leave or off-duty hours during the
period 1 May to 31 Oct annually, but only if:

     a.   such employment will not interfere with normal military duties;

     b.   authority has been obtained for the employment of additional
          persons for the work to be performed;

     c.   suitably qualified persons are not available for engagement
          locally; and

     d.   the work cannot be delayed until suitably qualified persons
          become available.


(C)                                     1605-19-7 (DPLS)


I just helped a guy do up a memo regarding this and the answer from the chain was that they don't care what you do on your off hours as long as it doesn't affect the CF and his performance.

Offline Supnewf

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #56 on: July 29, 2019, 09:43:43 »
Good Morning,

Anyone have a copy or some points they used on a memo that got approved for having a second job while being Reg Force?

TIA

Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #57 on: July 30, 2019, 07:40:29 »
Good Morning,

Anyone have a copy or some points they used on a memo that got approved for having a second job while being Reg Force?

TIA

Do you need a memo?  It’s your off time and the criteria mentioned above is pretty clear.   

Offline FSTO

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #58 on: July 30, 2019, 07:45:15 »
When I was doing shift work at RJOC Pacific, I worked construction for my cousin on my days off. It was a nice supplement to the income and it kept me out of the bars.
It was on my days off and I never even considered asking for permission.

Offline doggroomer

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #59 on: July 30, 2019, 13:40:40 »
I own a dog grooming business and work evenings and weekends.
The only time I "sought permission" was recently while reading my SOU's from the Transition Centre.  It stated that I cannot engage in self-employment. 
I confirmed with my Case Manager that this only pertains to my RTW plan, not on my own time.  It was clarified that my own time is mine to do with as I please, and if I want to earn extra income I am able to do that.

Offline Supnewf

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #60 on: July 30, 2019, 15:13:08 »
Was able to get some info. My references for my memo was:

Refs: A. QR&O 19.42 - CIVIL EMPLOYMENT
B. DAOD 7021-1, Conflict of Interest

Just in case anyone needs to do it :)

Offline stoker dave

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #61 on: July 31, 2019, 08:44:16 »
Just about all the stokers I knew had some type of side-gig:  welding, fabrication, car and motorcycle repair, home renovation, heavy equipment operation, tree clearing....that is just what these guys did. 

The only time I recall it was an issue was when one stoker was being sued for not paying one of his suppliers.  His court date was set for the middle of a deployment. 

Offline Supnewf

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #62 on: July 31, 2019, 10:47:00 »
When I asked around, I was told to do the memo. Better to be covered.

Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
« Reply #63 on: July 31, 2019, 11:47:21 »
Just about all the stokers I knew had some type of side-gig:  welding, fabrication, car and motorcycle repair, home renovation, heavy equipment operation, tree clearing....that is just what these guys did. 

The only time I recall it was an issue was when one stoker was being sued for not paying one of his suppliers.  His court date was set for the middle of a deployment.

Is this the case you're referring to?
https://www.canlii.org/en/ns/nssc/doc/2001/2001nssc32/2001nssc32.html?searchUrlHash=AAAAAQAITWVycmV0dGUAAAAAAQ&resultIndex=2
Whisky for the gentlemen that like it. And for the gentlemen that don't like it - Whisky.