Author Topic: Choices After BFT  (Read 13986 times)

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Offline Looking4Higher

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Choices After BFT
« on: February 23, 2007, 21:57:15 »
This question is for anyone out there already in the system.  I understand that a pilot candidate after completion of BFT has the choice or is selected to one of three streams (RW, Multi, Fast Jet).  My question is this, other than the candidates selected for Fast Jet, can a candidate bid for his/her first tour as a Instructor at Moose Jaw or is it reserved for just the Fast Jet people only??

Thanks

Offline Globesmasher

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Re: Choices After BFT
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2007, 22:16:01 »
You can still bid for Moose Jaw as a first tour.
I did  ..... no wait ...... I was told ... that I was going to do Moose Jaw as a first tour.
It wasn't bad - not what I wanted.

There are pros and cons, but it really boils down to what you want as a personal career choice.
Put your bid in hor what "YOU" want ... and then let the chips fall where they may.

That's all I can say really - but there is nothing wrong with a pipeline first tour QFI in YMJ.

Good luck.

Offline Looking4Higher

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Re: Choices After BFT
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2007, 22:27:31 »
Hey Globesmasher thanks for your input. I appreciate it.

Offline Crimmsy

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Re: Choices After BFT
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2007, 03:05:35 »
For the past two years (the only timeframe I can speak for), pipeline instructors have only come from the fast jet stream.

Offline SF2

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Re: Choices After BFT
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2007, 08:40:06 »
^^^that doesn't make any sense....you're not a pipeline if you came from "fast jet" stream.
Unless you're implying that you must be selected to go "jets" in order to pipe into FIS.

Off note, what's with "fast jet"....is there such thing as "slow jet"??

Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: Choices After BFT
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2007, 09:32:12 »
Looking4Higher, not sure how far along you are, but there's another change in the works.  They are running a "PFT-Extended" course this fall (on a trial basis) that would cover the syllabus of BFT (Moose Jaw), but be done in Portage on the Grobs and be less Fast Jet-oriented (similar to what has been run for foreigners in the past): of course the catch is that graduates would almost certainly be forfeiting any chance to go AFT - Fast Jet (and presumably Instructor, unless Globesmasher's experience is more common than I've been led to believe). 

P.S> Also no Harvard, no Hawk.
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Offline SF2

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Re: Choices After BFT
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2007, 09:48:17 »
Not to mention, the Helo community ain't all that bad....new birds on the way, CANSOFCOM etc.....

Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: Choices After BFT
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2007, 09:56:28 »
Not to mention, the Helo community ain't all that bad....new birds on the way, CANSOFCOM etc.....

Yep, and a lot of people seem to agree: there's a pretty large proportion of Pilote-Aspirantes that want Helo as their first choice ... lotsa Multi guys, too ... I was just sayin' ...
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Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: Choices After BFT
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2007, 10:12:42 »
P.S>
Off note, what's with "fast jet"....is there such thing as "slow jet"??

Yup, as in:
Quote
All of these services are required to be delivered by a combination of fast jet (military style) and slow jet (business style) aircraft.
http://www.mdn.ca/site/newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=1614

Presumably someone out there (with more TI than me  :blotto: ) knows which stream the Challenger & Polaris/Airbus guys come out of (but FWIW I'd guess it's Multi).
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Offline SF2

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Re: Choices After BFT
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2007, 10:16:12 »
Multi

Offline Inch

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Re: Choices After BFT
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2007, 10:16:56 »
^^^that doesn't make any sense....you're not a pipeline if you came from "fast jet" stream.
Unless you're implying that you must be selected to go "jets" in order to pipe into FIS.

Off note, what's with "fast jet"....is there such thing as "slow jet"??

It makes total sense, if you you've been there recently.

When I went through 4 years ago, 3 guys on my course got jets, 2 went on to Hornets after getting their wings, the third stayed in Moose Jaw to instruct. So, he was a pipe instructor from the jet stream, get it? You had to be selected for jets in order to stay in Moose Jaw and instruct.

Personally, I disagree with pipe instructors. Guys with around 300-400 hrs total time teaching Ab Initio students on an aircraft with a VNe of 316 knots? Plus they've never been anywhere or done anything other than what they're taught in Moose Jaw. In my opinion, you need to have a little bit of real world experience in order to be an effective instructor. The best instructors I had were second tour guys, they'd seen a bunch of different stuff, had over 1000 hrs total flying time (usually much more) and could tell you from experience why things were done the way they were.

No offence to Globesmasher, just my opinion is all.  ;)
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Offline SF2

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Re: Choices After BFT
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2007, 10:23:41 »
I guess I misunderstood......yeah, guys go pipeline when selected for jets - when he said "fast jet", I assumed he meant 2nd tour guys from the Hornet community.  A pipeliner nowadays hasn't even set foot in a jet.

As far as pipeliners as ab initio instructors - I can't really say, because I had a really crappy experience with a multi-tour operation guy, and a really good one with a pipeliner.  In the Moose Jaw context, its hit or miss.

Offline Inch

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Re: Choices After BFT
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2007, 10:27:30 »
I guess I misunderstood......yeah, guys go pipeline when selected for jets - when he said "fast jet", I assumed he meant 2nd tour guys from the Hornet community.  A pipeliner nowadays hasn't even set foot in a jet.

As far as pipeliners as ab initio instructors - I can't really say, because I had a really crappy experience with a multi-tour operation guy, and a really good one with a pipeliner.  In the Moose Jaw context, its hit or miss.

A lot does depend on personality, which is hit or miss,  but I can say without a doubt, a German Tornado pilot with loads of hours was far and away the best instructor I had there, tied for second was a TacHel guy and a Sea King guy. In fact, the Sea King guy is the one that convinced me to go Sea Kings, and I absolutely love it.  ;D
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Offline Crimmsy

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Re: Choices After BFT
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2007, 13:16:37 »
I guess I misunderstood......yeah, guys go pipeline when selected for jets - when he said "fast jet", I assumed he meant 2nd tour guys from the Hornet community.  A pipeliner nowadays hasn't even set foot in a jet.

Sorry for the confusion, as Inch explained I meant the guys who'd been selected for jets out of Ph II. And pipe instructors do have jet time, as they do Ph III on the Hawk prior to starting the Harvard FIC. I called it "fast jet" because that's what everyone else calls it  :)
« Last Edit: February 24, 2007, 13:19:08 by Crimmsy »

Offline Inch

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Re: Choices After BFT
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2007, 13:50:49 »
Sorry for the confusion, as Inch explained I meant the guys who'd been selected for jets out of Ph II. And pipe instructors do have jet time, as they do Ph III on the Hawk prior to starting the Harvard FIC. I called it "fast jet" because that's what everyone else calls it  :)

Obviously not us and you've got winged pilots posting in this thread!  ;)
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Offline SF2

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Re: Choices After BFT
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2007, 15:16:07 »
Quote
nd pipe instructors do have jet time, as they do Ph III on the Hawk prior to starting the Harvard FIC. I called it "fast jet" because that's what everyone else calls it

That is incorrect - unless they've changed it since 2001 when I went thru - none of my instructors had any time on the Hawk.  And the pipeliners did Phase IIB on the Harvard, then started FIS.

The only guys who call it fast jet are the guys that do it...the rest of us, well, would probably get deleted by moderators.  :)

Offline Crimmsy

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Re: Choices After BFT
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2007, 15:58:38 »
I went through last year and the pipes did Phase III, with the selection for FIS and FLIT happening at the end of that. I didn't know it had ever been done differently in the time that NFTC has been running. Did guys do Phase IIB knowing that they'd be going to FIS afterwards or was the decision made at the end of it?

Offline SF2

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Re: Choices After BFT
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2007, 16:34:51 »
In my time (god I  can't believe I'm using that phrase) the decision was made after Phase IIa - the pipes would then move on to IIB, then to FIS.  Again, I might be totally wrong - I didn't really pay attention to what the ***edited for content*** guys were doing - I just wanted to get the hell out of there.

I wouldn't see a need for Harvard guys to go thru Phase III on the Hawk - but then again, many would argue against Helo guys going thru moose jaw at all.....but that's a whole other can of worms...

Offline Looking4Higher

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Re: Choices After BFT
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2007, 16:38:59 »
Hey everyone, thanks for the input.  The only reason I brought up this question is that from everything I've read or people I have talked too, it seems that the only ones that get to go instructor for their first tour is the AFT (Jet) stream people.

As far as someone instructing ab-initio with 200 - 400 hours TT, or whatever was quoted, sure I agree that the lack of "real life" experience can be a hindrance to both the instructor and the student.  But I also believe that and have seen where a young dedicated instructor that knows his/her craft and who is an effective instructor but lacking that real world experience, can be more of a benefit to a student than that of a pilot with vast amounts of "real world" experience who cannot effectively draw from said experience and apply it into the training environment.

I hope I am not touching a nerve with that but from my experience it is sometimes the case, not always.

As for me, I am just starting OJT and looking at all options that may be available to me when the time comes.  I think if it was available, instructing would be great, but when all is said and done, as long as I am flying there will be a smile on my face!

Cheers!


Offline kingfisher

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Re: Choices After BFT
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2007, 19:46:49 »

Personally, I disagree with pipe instructors. Guys with around 300-400 hrs total time teaching Ab Initio students on an aircraft with a VNe of 316 knots? Plus they've never been anywhere or done anything other than what they're taught in Moose Jaw. In my opinion, you need to have a little bit of real world experience in order to be an effective instructor. The best instructors I had were second tour guys, they'd seen a bunch of different stuff, had over 1000 hrs total flying time (usually much more) and could tell you from experience why things were done the way they were.

No offence to Globesmasher, just my opinion is all.  ;)

Inch,  Certainly there is merit to what you are saying once a student makes it to phase III or even to the OTU, but I would have to disagree with the idea that Pipes don't make good instructors (and no, I'm not one.)

Considering the scope of phase II, the Pipeliners have all the experience neccessary to teach these basic skills.  Instructors don't have to be able to teach a student how to shoot an approach into Vancouver in the fog because that's not part of the scope of the course.  Pipeliner instructors have been in Moose Jaw for many, many years.  Also, these pipeline instructors get "run through the wringer" when they go through FIS, and the staff there make sure these new instructors know what they're doing.  When I went through Moose Jaw, we saw different quality of instructors from all levels of experience.  It was more about the individual...and that being said, some of the best instructors were pipeliners; maybe because they were fresh, maybe because they remembered what it was like to be a student; or maybe just because they had the gift...

Just my opinion.
Kingfisher

Offline Inch

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Re: Choices After BFT
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2007, 14:58:06 »
I guess it just comes down to perspective. A guy with less than 500 hours can teach someone to fly, whereas on the operational Sqns, you typically need 500 hrs on type to even upgrade to aircraft captain (obviously Hornets excepted). Kinda hard to teach someone something that you've only seen once or twice, if at all.

SF2,

When I went through, all "jet" guys went through Ph III on the Hawk, got their wings and then went to FIS. No one gets their wings after the Harvard course, Ph IIa or Ph IIb, and only winged pilots go to FIS. While you were off in Portage, your coursemates were doing the Hawk course.

You may be thinking of Ph IV in Cold Lake on the Hawk, the guys don't typically do that course until they're on their way to the Hornet OTU.
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Offline SF2

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Re: Choices After BFT
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2007, 16:16:56 »
Makes sense Inch.....like I said, i didn't really pay much attention - I was busy sitting around on weather days and playing ball hockey......

Offline Inch

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Re: Choices After BFT
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2007, 16:28:28 »
Makes sense Inch.....like I said, i didn't really pay much attention - I was busy sitting around on weather days and playing ball hockey......

BHS, Ball Hockey School.  ;)
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Offline volition

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Re: Choices After BFT
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2007, 08:51:29 »
Looking4Higher, not sure how far along you are, but there's another change in the works.  They are running a "PFT-Extended" course this fall (on a trial basis) that would cover the syllabus of BFT (Moose Jaw), but be done in Portage on the Grobs and be less Fast Jet-oriented (similar to what has been run for foreigners in the past): of course the catch is that graduates would almost certainly be forfeiting any chance to go AFT - Fast Jet (and presumably Instructor, unless Globesmasher's experience is more common than I've been led to believe). 

P.S> Also no Harvard, no Hawk.

How would that work? They would ask you if you want to go this route, or just put you on it?
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Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: Choices After BFT
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2007, 09:38:40 »
How would that work?
Right now they are looking for volunteers (of which I am sure there is no shortage) ... presumably would be the same in the future ...
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Offline volition

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Re: Choices After BFT
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2007, 10:00:32 »
Cool, I would take it. I only what to fly helicopters!
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