Author Topic: Pilot life after CF  (Read 28309 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Chou

  • Guest
  • *
  • 0
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 16
Pilot life after CF
« on: February 27, 2007, 10:53:16 »
I was just wondering the process one would go through after serving your initial ~9 years as a 1. Fighter 2. Helo 3. Multi to reintegrate oneself into the civi commercial aviation world.  I know there has been some discussion on this but I still have some questions.

1. Fighter Jets: 
Assuming one gets ~200 hours a year(too high?), one may finish off with 1000-1400 hours depending on your desk tour.  What do airlines think of single seat fighter jet time?  Are you really at a disadvantage when compared to a Helo guy? If yes than why? Once hired by an airline company how long is your training period in comparison to 2. Helo and 3. Multi?  ???

2. Helicopter:
Not too sure on flight hours here, 300-400 a year? That puts you in the 2000+ range after 9 years.  Are you just as competitive as a Multi guy?  I know a bunch of reserve griffon pilots who fly for air Canada.  Is the switch over easy to do?

3. Multi engine:
I would think airlines are all over these guys like whinnie the pooh on honey.  True? 

Thanks

Offline Loachman

  • Former Army Pilot in Drag
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 217,912
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,452
Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2007, 14:47:08 »
The reserve pilots flying Griffons on their off-time from Air Canada are former military fixed-wing pilots. 400 Sqn, 438 ETAH, and most likely 408 Sqn each have a Jet Ranger for ab initio helicopter training and a cadre of instructors for that and the CH146.

One is only allowed to count a couple of hundred helicopter hours towards one's ATPL. A helicopter pilot would still need about 700 hours of pilot-in-command, multi-engined turbine time if I remember correctly. As far as I know, the number of pilots with which one has flown at any one time has nothing to do with one's attractiveness to the airlines; it's the number of engines, and two or more count the same.

Offline SupersonicMax

    is back home.

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 82,815
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,818
Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2007, 16:28:41 »
Is the Hornet considered centerline thrust (ie :  IFR Group 3 for civies)?

Max

Offline Inch

  • Signal Charlie Goodtimes
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • -395
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,231
  • CH124 Driver
Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2007, 16:32:59 »
Is the Hornet considered centerline thrust (ie :  IFR Group 3 for civies)?

Max

Does it yaw if you lose an engine? If it does than it's not centreline thrust.
You sir are a moron!
A Mormon? But I'm from Earth.

Offline Globesmasher

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 435
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 348
Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2007, 22:17:50 »
Is the Hornet considered centerline thrust (ie :  IFR Group 3 for civies)?

Max

No it is not.

Offline SupersonicMax

    is back home.

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 82,815
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,818
Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2007, 08:22:23 »
Thank you Globemasher for the right to the point answer :)

Max

Offline zorro

  • Member
  • ****
  • 450
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 119
  • Who's chirpinnnnnnnnnn
Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2007, 00:40:21 »
Interesting....

Now what about Helo guys that have put in their 20some years and pension out.....are they attractive prospects for police forces? I know here in Toronto they've got one or two choppers...........must be pretty competitive for those types of positions...but with that much military training I don't see how one wouldn't be snapped up.

Could make for an interesting application of the skills you develop from military helo training in your post-military life.

Thoughts?
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke

Offline TCBF

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 13,760
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,941
Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2007, 00:48:59 »
"Good Morning!  Welcome to Wal-Mart!"

 ::)

Just kidding...

Tom
"Disarming the Canadian public is part of the new humanitarian social agenda."   - Foreign Affairs Minister Lloyd Axeworthy at a Gun Control conference in Oslo, Norway in 1998.


"I didn’t feel that it was an act of violence; you know, I felt that it was an act of liberation, that’s how I felt you know." - Ann Hansen, Canadian 'Urban Guerrilla'(one of the "Squamish Five")

Offline Yrys

  • α-γνωστικισμός
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 31,350
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,195
  • You can deprive the body but the soul needs choco!
Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2007, 01:03:37 »
I don't see how one wouldn't be snapped up.

(civi here)

I don't see how an employer would snap anybody however much that person
has experience if he doesn't have a job opening...

A civil friend of mine took nearly 10 years to get a job as first officer, and she told
me that it is worst for helo pilots... How many people travel by helo ?
Louvre website

"Happiness is beneficial for the body, but it is grief that develops the powers of the mind."  Marcel Proust

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 239,770
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 13,528
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2007, 01:15:29 »
There's always heli logging and fire fighting out in the west, as well as flying for the mining and 'energy' companies. Failing that, I hear Blackwater's hiring.
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline volition

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • -50
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 92
Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2007, 08:22:30 »
First, there is never a shortage of experienced helicopter pilots. Second, if it took your friend 10 years to get  a first officer job in the helo world, I might evaluate the company, or skills of the pilot. I have many friends that starting from 0 to second chair in 2-3 years. Transport Canada hires helo pilots, TV stations, schools, EMS, Police, Fire suppression, etc. The reason it could be harder in the helo world at first is; after the commercial license(100 hours), you cannot get your instructor's rating until you got 250 hours PIC. So From 100 to 500 hours could be your biggest hurdle!! After that you can get jobs every where with the sales of helicopter going up every year. The ratio for helicopters in Canada, and the number of pilots that gets license every year, is the same as fixed weenies. Thanx, and that's my 2 cents!
You threat me right, I'll threat you better.
You threat me bad, I'll threat you worse!

Offline Aden_Gatling

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • -195
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 915
  • Action is eloquence.
Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2007, 10:27:08 »
There's always heli logging and fire fighting out in the west, as well as flying for the mining and 'energy' companies.

They never seem to be able to get enough pilots: I met a couple of operators (heli-logging) a few years ago who told me that they "love" ex-mil types ...
There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot.

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 239,770
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 13,528
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2007, 10:38:54 »
They never seem to be able to get enough pilots: I met a couple of operators (heli-logging) a few years ago who told me that they "love" ex-mil types ...

Yup. I know alot of loggers - owners and operators - and they need pilots and pay well. You also get to do stuff with an S61 (i.e., Sea King) or an A-Star on a daily basis that you'd be cashiered for in the military!
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline zorro

  • Member
  • ****
  • 450
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 119
  • Who's chirpinnnnnnnnnn
Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2007, 10:42:01 »
Another question....

After receiving military training, is there any program that exists where one could transfer their hours towards a civilian rating?

For example, if someone has 0 hours in the civilian world, but has accrued 1500 hours on a multi-engine in the CF, can you transfer these hours/training towards say....a PPL? Or even a commercial license?

.........It would be seem backwards to make someone with this kind of training have to go through the civilian system to acquire a related rating...
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke

Offline AJFitzpatrick

  • Distracted by shiny things
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 12,888
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 510
Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2007, 10:51:27 »
Just wanted to say that my uncle (Ex-CF-188 pilot) moved pretty quickly into a commercial job (MD-80). Mind you that was more than 15 years ago.

Offline Loachman

  • Former Army Pilot in Drag
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 217,912
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,452
Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2007, 10:54:00 »
Now what about Helo guys that have put in their 20some years and pension out.....are they attractive prospects for police forces? I know here in Toronto they've got one or two choppers...........must be pretty competitive for those types of positions...but with that much military training I don't see how one wouldn't be snapped up.
Toronto does NOT have a police helicopter. It only conducted a six-month trial using two Bell 206 Jet Rangers and a handful of pilots, many of whom were reservists or ex-military, under contract from Canadian Helicopters in 2001. Two criteria for the job were plenty of night time and an instrument rating, neither of which are terribly common in the civ helicopter world. It never became a permanent operation, unlike in York and Durham Regions. I would not go after the job if it was revived - too much lefty political interference. I did the Peel Region trial prior to that. Much harder work, but more rewarding and no political interference.

Offline Aden_Gatling

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • -195
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 915
  • Action is eloquence.
Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2007, 10:54:37 »
Another question....

After receiving military training, is there any program that exists where one could transfer their hours towards a civilian rating?

For example, if someone has 0 hours in the civilian world, but has accrued 1500 hours on a multi-engine in the CF, can you transfer these hours/training towards say....a PPL? Or even a commercial license?

.........It would be seem backwards to make someone with this kind of training have to go through the civilian system to acquire a related rating...

Transport Canada has people that convert military hours to civilian equivalent: check with them.
There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot.

Offline Loachman

  • Former Army Pilot in Drag
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 217,912
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,452
Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2007, 10:58:48 »
Another question....

After receiving military training, is there any program that exists where one could transfer their hours towards a civilian rating?

One hour equals one hour. One writes the exam, provides proof of medical, pays the nice lady, and gets a commercial licence. I didn't bother getting an ATPL(H) as it wasn't required for the cop job.

Offline Loachman

  • Former Army Pilot in Drag
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 217,912
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,452
Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2007, 11:08:28 »
Just wanted to say that my uncle (Ex-CF-188 pilot) moved pretty quickly into a commercial job (MD-80). Mind you that was more than 15 years ago.
A completely different industry than the helicopter one. Job security isn't great for the newer guys, either. I've seen a couple of rounds of layoffs.

Offline Inch

  • Signal Charlie Goodtimes
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • -395
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,231
  • CH124 Driver
Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2007, 15:26:15 »
They never seem to be able to get enough pilots: I met a couple of operators (heli-logging) a few years ago who told me that they "love" ex-mil types ...

That's because we all have medium to large helicopter experience. I have almost 600 hrs on S-61s and 115 hrs on Jet Rangers. 99% of civvie pilots have an abundance of Robinson time, but very little, if any at all, turbine large helicopter time. Kinda hard to turn down a 1000+ hr Sea King pilot in favour of a 500 hr Robinson R22 pilot with the same licence.

On the transfer question, have a read of part 4 of the CARS, under every licence there is a "Credit for DND Applicants" section detailing what a miltary pilot must do to get the licence. As Loachman said, hours are hours, doesn't matter where you get them as far as Transport Canada is concerned. The military does care however, none of my civvie time counted for jack when I went through pilot training, all it did was make the learning curve a little shallower for me since it wasn't all totally new to me.
You sir are a moron!
A Mormon? But I'm from Earth.

Offline Aden_Gatling

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • -195
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 915
  • Action is eloquence.
Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2007, 16:17:06 »
On the transfer question, have a read of part 4 of the CARS, under every licence there is a "Credit for DND Applicants" section detailing what a miltary pilot must do to get the licence. As Loachman said, hours are hours, doesn't matter where you get them as far as Transport Canada is concerned.

Actually, the issue is with getting credit for type ratings (421.20 in the CARS) ... hours are hours, and total hours are the same for the actual licenses but DND time is credited differently for type ratings (and for all I know probably some other things, too).
There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot.

Offline Inch

  • Signal Charlie Goodtimes
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • -395
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,231
  • CH124 Driver
Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2007, 16:52:06 »
Actually, the issue is with getting credit for type ratings (421.20 in the CARS) ... hours are hours, and total hours are the same for the actual licenses but DND time is credited differently for type ratings (and for all I know probably some other things, too).

421.20 is for a Pilot Permit on Gyroplanes. Pilot permits are considerably different than Pilot Licences. Specifically, Airline Transport Pilot Licence (Helicopters), or ATPLH for short. 421.35 details the requirements for ATPLH. We meet the skill requirement, experience requirement is usually the same for all licences, you must meet the hours as laid out, and we must write the HAMRA and HARON as does everyone who wants an ATPLH.

To get helo type ratings (CARs 421.40 para 3f), all we have to have done is a Pilot Proficiency Check in the previous 12 months, since we do them annually, it's no big deal for me to get an S61 type rating on an ATPLH once I meet the hour requirements and successfully write the HAMRA and HARON.
You sir are a moron!
A Mormon? But I'm from Earth.

Offline Aden_Gatling

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • -195
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 915
  • Action is eloquence.
Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2007, 17:00:31 »
Sorry, 421.40 (typo) ... I'm not saying that it is necessarily difficult to qualify for civvy equivalent ratings, just that they are different and T'port Canada has to review the applicant's DND hours and confirm that they meet the civvy standard (they employ people to do just this specifically).
There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot.

Offline SupersonicMax

    is back home.

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 82,815
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,818
Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2007, 17:05:02 »
They do that fot civies applying for licenses too.  You have to send them a proof of hours and if they feel like it they will call the operators and request if the flights were really done (looking at the airplane's logbook)

Max

Offline Strike

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 33,121
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,455
  • Welcome to the Dead Parrot's Society.
Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2007, 17:49:07 »
Another reason operators like the military pilots is that most retire from the military qualified as an aircraft captain on type.  Civvies tend to build up the hours (1500+ and sometimes much higher) before even considering an upgrade.  Reasons are varied.  More responsibility such as losing your own rating if your cojo fails the IRT in the SIM is an example.  Also, after working with a certain operator for several years as a cojo, there is not much of an incentive to upgrade.

Of course, we don't do much long-lining like the civvie operators. ;D
Stop assuming I'm a man!

Don't know how long I want to keep playing this game...