Author Topic: Pilot life after CF  (Read 27501 times)

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Offline Chou

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Pilot life after CF
« on: February 27, 2007, 10:53:16 »
I was just wondering the process one would go through after serving your initial ~9 years as a 1. Fighter 2. Helo 3. Multi to reintegrate oneself into the civi commercial aviation world.  I know there has been some discussion on this but I still have some questions.

1. Fighter Jets: 
Assuming one gets ~200 hours a year(too high?), one may finish off with 1000-1400 hours depending on your desk tour.  What do airlines think of single seat fighter jet time?  Are you really at a disadvantage when compared to a Helo guy? If yes than why? Once hired by an airline company how long is your training period in comparison to 2. Helo and 3. Multi?  ???

2. Helicopter:
Not too sure on flight hours here, 300-400 a year? That puts you in the 2000+ range after 9 years.  Are you just as competitive as a Multi guy?  I know a bunch of reserve griffon pilots who fly for air Canada.  Is the switch over easy to do?

3. Multi engine:
I would think airlines are all over these guys like whinnie the pooh on honey.  True? 

Thanks

Offline Loachman

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2007, 14:47:08 »
The reserve pilots flying Griffons on their off-time from Air Canada are former military fixed-wing pilots. 400 Sqn, 438 ETAH, and most likely 408 Sqn each have a Jet Ranger for ab initio helicopter training and a cadre of instructors for that and the CH146.

One is only allowed to count a couple of hundred helicopter hours towards one's ATPL. A helicopter pilot would still need about 700 hours of pilot-in-command, multi-engined turbine time if I remember correctly. As far as I know, the number of pilots with which one has flown at any one time has nothing to do with one's attractiveness to the airlines; it's the number of engines, and two or more count the same.

Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2007, 16:28:41 »
Is the Hornet considered centerline thrust (ie :  IFR Group 3 for civies)?

Max

Offline Inch

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2007, 16:32:59 »
Is the Hornet considered centerline thrust (ie :  IFR Group 3 for civies)?

Max

Does it yaw if you lose an engine? If it does than it's not centreline thrust.
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Offline Globesmasher

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2007, 22:17:50 »
Is the Hornet considered centerline thrust (ie :  IFR Group 3 for civies)?

Max

No it is not.

Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2007, 08:22:23 »
Thank you Globemasher for the right to the point answer :)

Max

Offline zorro

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2007, 00:40:21 »
Interesting....

Now what about Helo guys that have put in their 20some years and pension out.....are they attractive prospects for police forces? I know here in Toronto they've got one or two choppers...........must be pretty competitive for those types of positions...but with that much military training I don't see how one wouldn't be snapped up.

Could make for an interesting application of the skills you develop from military helo training in your post-military life.

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Offline TCBF

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2007, 00:48:59 »
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Just kidding...

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2007, 01:03:37 »
I don't see how one wouldn't be snapped up.

(civi here)

I don't see how an employer would snap anybody however much that person
has experience if he doesn't have a job opening...

A civil friend of mine took nearly 10 years to get a job as first officer, and she told
me that it is worst for helo pilots... How many people travel by helo ?
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2007, 01:15:29 »
There's always heli logging and fire fighting out in the west, as well as flying for the mining and 'energy' companies. Failing that, I hear Blackwater's hiring.
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Offline volition

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2007, 08:22:30 »
First, there is never a shortage of experienced helicopter pilots. Second, if it took your friend 10 years to get  a first officer job in the helo world, I might evaluate the company, or skills of the pilot. I have many friends that starting from 0 to second chair in 2-3 years. Transport Canada hires helo pilots, TV stations, schools, EMS, Police, Fire suppression, etc. The reason it could be harder in the helo world at first is; after the commercial license(100 hours), you cannot get your instructor's rating until you got 250 hours PIC. So From 100 to 500 hours could be your biggest hurdle!! After that you can get jobs every where with the sales of helicopter going up every year. The ratio for helicopters in Canada, and the number of pilots that gets license every year, is the same as fixed weenies. Thanx, and that's my 2 cents!
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Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2007, 10:27:08 »
There's always heli logging and fire fighting out in the west, as well as flying for the mining and 'energy' companies.

They never seem to be able to get enough pilots: I met a couple of operators (heli-logging) a few years ago who told me that they "love" ex-mil types ...
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2007, 10:38:54 »
They never seem to be able to get enough pilots: I met a couple of operators (heli-logging) a few years ago who told me that they "love" ex-mil types ...

Yup. I know alot of loggers - owners and operators - and they need pilots and pay well. You also get to do stuff with an S61 (i.e., Sea King) or an A-Star on a daily basis that you'd be cashiered for in the military!
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Offline zorro

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2007, 10:42:01 »
Another question....

After receiving military training, is there any program that exists where one could transfer their hours towards a civilian rating?

For example, if someone has 0 hours in the civilian world, but has accrued 1500 hours on a multi-engine in the CF, can you transfer these hours/training towards say....a PPL? Or even a commercial license?

.........It would be seem backwards to make someone with this kind of training have to go through the civilian system to acquire a related rating...
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Offline AJFitzpatrick

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2007, 10:51:27 »
Just wanted to say that my uncle (Ex-CF-188 pilot) moved pretty quickly into a commercial job (MD-80). Mind you that was more than 15 years ago.

Offline Loachman

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2007, 10:54:00 »
Now what about Helo guys that have put in their 20some years and pension out.....are they attractive prospects for police forces? I know here in Toronto they've got one or two choppers...........must be pretty competitive for those types of positions...but with that much military training I don't see how one wouldn't be snapped up.
Toronto does NOT have a police helicopter. It only conducted a six-month trial using two Bell 206 Jet Rangers and a handful of pilots, many of whom were reservists or ex-military, under contract from Canadian Helicopters in 2001. Two criteria for the job were plenty of night time and an instrument rating, neither of which are terribly common in the civ helicopter world. It never became a permanent operation, unlike in York and Durham Regions. I would not go after the job if it was revived - too much lefty political interference. I did the Peel Region trial prior to that. Much harder work, but more rewarding and no political interference.

Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2007, 10:54:37 »
Another question....

After receiving military training, is there any program that exists where one could transfer their hours towards a civilian rating?

For example, if someone has 0 hours in the civilian world, but has accrued 1500 hours on a multi-engine in the CF, can you transfer these hours/training towards say....a PPL? Or even a commercial license?

.........It would be seem backwards to make someone with this kind of training have to go through the civilian system to acquire a related rating...

Transport Canada has people that convert military hours to civilian equivalent: check with them.
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Offline Loachman

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2007, 10:58:48 »
Another question....

After receiving military training, is there any program that exists where one could transfer their hours towards a civilian rating?

One hour equals one hour. One writes the exam, provides proof of medical, pays the nice lady, and gets a commercial licence. I didn't bother getting an ATPL(H) as it wasn't required for the cop job.

Offline Loachman

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2007, 11:08:28 »
Just wanted to say that my uncle (Ex-CF-188 pilot) moved pretty quickly into a commercial job (MD-80). Mind you that was more than 15 years ago.
A completely different industry than the helicopter one. Job security isn't great for the newer guys, either. I've seen a couple of rounds of layoffs.

Offline Inch

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2007, 15:26:15 »
They never seem to be able to get enough pilots: I met a couple of operators (heli-logging) a few years ago who told me that they "love" ex-mil types ...

That's because we all have medium to large helicopter experience. I have almost 600 hrs on S-61s and 115 hrs on Jet Rangers. 99% of civvie pilots have an abundance of Robinson time, but very little, if any at all, turbine large helicopter time. Kinda hard to turn down a 1000+ hr Sea King pilot in favour of a 500 hr Robinson R22 pilot with the same licence.

On the transfer question, have a read of part 4 of the CARS, under every licence there is a "Credit for DND Applicants" section detailing what a miltary pilot must do to get the licence. As Loachman said, hours are hours, doesn't matter where you get them as far as Transport Canada is concerned. The military does care however, none of my civvie time counted for jack when I went through pilot training, all it did was make the learning curve a little shallower for me since it wasn't all totally new to me.
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Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2007, 16:17:06 »
On the transfer question, have a read of part 4 of the CARS, under every licence there is a "Credit for DND Applicants" section detailing what a miltary pilot must do to get the licence. As Loachman said, hours are hours, doesn't matter where you get them as far as Transport Canada is concerned.

Actually, the issue is with getting credit for type ratings (421.20 in the CARS) ... hours are hours, and total hours are the same for the actual licenses but DND time is credited differently for type ratings (and for all I know probably some other things, too).
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Offline Inch

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2007, 16:52:06 »
Actually, the issue is with getting credit for type ratings (421.20 in the CARS) ... hours are hours, and total hours are the same for the actual licenses but DND time is credited differently for type ratings (and for all I know probably some other things, too).

421.20 is for a Pilot Permit on Gyroplanes. Pilot permits are considerably different than Pilot Licences. Specifically, Airline Transport Pilot Licence (Helicopters), or ATPLH for short. 421.35 details the requirements for ATPLH. We meet the skill requirement, experience requirement is usually the same for all licences, you must meet the hours as laid out, and we must write the HAMRA and HARON as does everyone who wants an ATPLH.

To get helo type ratings (CARs 421.40 para 3f), all we have to have done is a Pilot Proficiency Check in the previous 12 months, since we do them annually, it's no big deal for me to get an S61 type rating on an ATPLH once I meet the hour requirements and successfully write the HAMRA and HARON.
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Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2007, 17:00:31 »
Sorry, 421.40 (typo) ... I'm not saying that it is necessarily difficult to qualify for civvy equivalent ratings, just that they are different and T'port Canada has to review the applicant's DND hours and confirm that they meet the civvy standard (they employ people to do just this specifically).
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Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2007, 17:05:02 »
They do that fot civies applying for licenses too.  You have to send them a proof of hours and if they feel like it they will call the operators and request if the flights were really done (looking at the airplane's logbook)

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2007, 17:49:07 »
Another reason operators like the military pilots is that most retire from the military qualified as an aircraft captain on type.  Civvies tend to build up the hours (1500+ and sometimes much higher) before even considering an upgrade.  Reasons are varied.  More responsibility such as losing your own rating if your cojo fails the IRT in the SIM is an example.  Also, after working with a certain operator for several years as a cojo, there is not much of an incentive to upgrade.

Of course, we don't do much long-lining like the civvie operators. ;D
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Offline Inch

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2007, 17:57:30 »
Sorry, 421.40 (typo) ... I'm not saying that it is necessarily difficult to qualify for civvy equivalent ratings, just that they are different and T'port Canada has to review the applicant's DND hours and confirm that they meet the civvy standard (they employ people to do just this specifically).

That's no different than a civvie requesting a type rating. It's actually easier than you think. I know many people that have ATPLH licences but have very little solo flight time since all operational helos are two pilot (except the Kiowa guys back in the day). I only have about 10 hrs solo flight time in helos and that's all I'll ever get unless I get posted to helo school to fly Jet Rangers.

When I get the hour requirements and just before I do the Cyclone conversion course, I'll get my ATPLH with S61 rating. As soon as I've got a category on the Cyclone, I'll get an S92 type rating.
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Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2007, 18:07:20 »
That's no different than a civvie requesting a type rating.
Yes I know that, but the requirements are different (which is what I was trying to convey in response to the original question).
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Offline Inch

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2007, 18:11:59 »
Yes I know that, but the requirements are different (which is what I was trying to convey in response to the original question).

What requirements?
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Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2007, 18:24:40 »
What requirements?
For type ratings.

e.g.
Quote
(iii) Skill

Within the 12 months preceding the date of application for the rating, an applicant shall have successfully completed a qualifying flight under the supervision of a Transport Canada Inspector or a qualified person qualified in accordance with CAR 425.21(7)(a).


and

Quote
(iii) Skill

An applicant shall have passed a pilot proficiency check conducted in accordance with Part VII for that helicopter type within the 12 months preceding the application for the rating or passed a pilot proficiency check acceptable to the Minister for that helicopter type within 12 months preceding the application for the rating.
(amended 2000/09/01; previous version)

(etc. ... the civilian requirements)

are not the same as

Quote
(4) Credits for DND Applicants

(a) Active and retired members of the Canadian Armed Forces who are qualified to wings standard shall be deemed to have met the qualifying flight requirement specified in 3(c)(iii), 3(g)(iii), 3(k)(ii), and 3(l) above provided the applicant:
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)

(i) has acquired a minimum of 10 hours pilot-in-command flight time on the appropriate aircraft type during the 24 months preceding the application for rating, or
(amended 1998/03/23; no previous version)

(ii) has qualified as pilot-in-command on the aircraft type during the 24 months preceding the application for rating.
(amended 1998/03/23; no previous version)

(b) Active and retired members of the Canadian Armed Forces who are qualified to wings standard shall be deemed to have met the Pilot Proficiency Check requirement specified in 3(a)(iii), 3(b)(iii), 3(f)(iii),and 3(g)(ii) above provided the applicant:
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)

(i) has acquired a minimum of 50 hours flight time on the appropriate aircraft type during the 24 months preceding the application for rating, or
(amended 1998/03/23; no previous version)

(ii) has qualified as pilot-in-command on the aircraft type during the 24 months preceding the application for rating.
(amended 1998/03/23; no previous version)
(military requirement)
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Offline Inch

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2007, 18:35:12 »
I see that, you're just pointing out that they're different?

Since we all upgrade to Aircraft Captain and requal every year, it seems to me that it's easier for a DND applicant to get the type rating.
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Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2007, 19:13:43 »
Solo time isn't a requirment for ATPL, PIC time is.

Max

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2007, 19:16:09 »
As it turns-out, yes.  I didn't know exactly what the difference was, only that they were different, so I originally told the poster to check with T'port Canada (no one had responded to his question at that point).  You took the time to refer him to the CARs, so I checked them myself to make sure we were all on the same page (CPL & ATPL where it is really just a matter of number of hours, irrespective of source vs. type ratings where the requirement for military hours is somewhat different* (unless I am missing something)).

*Which you pointed-out that an active duty pilot should have no problem meeting ... thus, as it turns-out, for practical purposes the difference is not that great.   ::)
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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2007, 19:48:37 »
ATPL's aside.

Transport Canada regulations are very clear on equivalent licenses/ratings.  As a multi-engine pilot with an unrestricted IRT, all I must do is write the PSTAR and score 80% on the test and I will receive my PPL.  If I wish to go further, I must write my CSTAR and again score 80% and then I would receive my Commercial, Multi-engine, IFR rating.

I could do this tomorrow with or without any PIC on type and gain such licenses.

I trust this answers the original posters question.
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Offline Inch

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2007, 21:13:06 »
ATPL's aside.

Transport Canada regulations are very clear on equivalent licenses/ratings.  As a multi-engine pilot with an unrestricted IRT, all I must do is write the PSTAR and score 80% on the test and I will receive my PPL.  If I wish to go further, I must write my CSTAR and again score 80% and then I would receive my Commercial, Multi-engine, IFR rating.

I could do this tomorrow with or without any PIC on type and gain such licenses.

I trust this answers the original posters question.


I have a Commercial Aeroplane licence and I gotta say, as far as written tests go, I've never heard of a CSTAR. PSTAR is a test to get a student pilot permit, PPAER is the written test to get a PPL. To get a CPL, you write the CPAER. For DND credit towards a CPL, you need to write the "Commercial Pilot Licence (Aeroplane) Air Law, Air Traffic Rules and Procedures (ARPCO)", or the HARPC for a CPL-H.

You do need PIC time to get a multi rating, 50 hrs on type. For the instrument rating, you only need a valid, unrestricted IRT. Just got my unrestricted today.  ;D
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Offline Hippie

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2007, 21:29:36 »

You do need PIC time to get a multi rating, 50 hrs on type. For the instrument rating, you only need a valid, unrestricted IRT. Just got my unrestricted today.  ;D


Inch, if I'm reading what you typed correctly, you're saying that you need 50 hrs on type to get a multi rating?  Just checking my logbook, and I got my multi-engine rating on a BE-76 in 2001 with 9.5hrs Dual and 1.1hrs Solo (that being the ME flight test)

After my multi-IFR flight test, I had 23.8hrs Dual and 2.5hrs Solo (both flt tests)

Unless you mean you need 50 hrs BEFORE doing a multi rating..  ie. on single eng a/c...  OR if you're talking military time..  if that's the case, I'll find out after my Sea King OTU in 2019   
« Last Edit: March 06, 2007, 21:37:59 by Hippie »

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2007, 21:30:59 »
I think he means you need 50 hrs PIC on type before you can have your CPL.  PIC is NOT the same as Solo. 

Max

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2007, 21:43:49 »
PIC is NOT the same as Solo. 

Max

In my civie logbook the columns indicate "Dual" "PIC" "Co-pilot"  ; and in my mil logbook has the columns "Dual" and "Pilot" for SE ; and "Dual" "First Pilot" "Second Pilot" for ME...   so unless I ain't smokin' what you're rollin', PIC is the same as Solo..  Been wrong before tho!

Hippie
« Last Edit: March 06, 2007, 22:02:07 by Hippie »

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2007, 21:46:29 »
In my books, PIC time is the time you are in charge of an aircraft.  In a multi-crew environment, that's the AC.  You have an FO, you are NOT solo and you still log it as First Pilot and you are the AC in the crew.

Max

Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2007, 21:54:40 »
According to the CARs http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part4/Standards/421.htm#421_38 (scroll down to 3 & 4) civvy applicants need to pass the prescribed test: mil applicants need i) at least 50 hours in the last 24 months, or ii) to have qualified in the last 24 months.

Quote
(3) Multi-engine Class Rating - Requirements

(a) Skill

An applicant for a multi-engine class rating shall complete a flight test to the standard outlined in the Flight Test Standard, Multi-Engine Class Rating.

(b) Credits for DND Applicants

Active and retired personnel of the Canadian Forces who are qualified to the pilot aeroplane wings standard shall be considered to have satisfied the skill requirements as set forth above provided that the applicant:
(amended 1999/03/01; previous version)

(i) has acquired a minimum of 50 hours flight time as pilot-in-command in multi-engine aeroplanes during the 24 months preceding the date of application for the rating, or

(ii) has met the prescribed standards of the Canadian Forces to act as pilot-in-command of multi-engine aeroplanes during the 24 months preceding the date of application for the rating.
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Offline Hippie

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #39 on: March 06, 2007, 22:00:30 »
According to the CARs http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part4/Standards/421.htm#421_38 (scroll down to 3 & 4) civvy applicants need to pass the prescribed test: mil applicants need i) at least 50 hours in the last 24 months, or ii) to have qualified in the last 24 months.


OK, that makes sense since I got my multi-IFR before entering the AF.

Hippie

Offline Inch

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2007, 05:30:29 »
Correct.

The difference is you had to do a TC ride to get your multi rating, as did I. Military applicants don't have to do a flight test to get it, they only need to meet the requirements as laid out by John_Galt.
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Offline Inch

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2007, 05:50:32 »
Hippie,

As you will learn at 406, Dual time is logged when you have a U/T category and while flying with a qualified MH Instructor, same as Moose Jaw and Portage. First Pilot time is logged when at the controls with a valid category on type, in your case, MH CoPilot (MHCP). 2nd Pilot time is logged by any pilot on the aircraft that is not at the controls. It doesn't count for anything so I don't even log it.

The difference between PIC and copilot time is where your name is in the two columns. Left column is for the aircraft captain, right column is for the cojo. If you didn't sign for the aircraft, your name shouldn't be in the left column.

When TC looks at your military logbook down the road, they'll be looking for when you were in the left column (PIC) and when there was no one in the right column (you were solo).

"At the controls" means sitting in the front seat, "in control" means actually flying.
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Offline Ditch

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #42 on: March 07, 2007, 12:23:27 »
First Pilot time is logged when at the controls with a valid category on type, in your case, MH CoPilot (MHCP). 2nd Pilot time is logged by any pilot on the aircraft that is not at the controls...
..."At the controls" means sitting in the front seat, "in control" means actually flying.

Not quite true.  The Aircraft Captain can be sitting in the back (in the case of AAC rides) and still be accruing First Pilot, PIC time.

The short and the skinny of this entire post is as follows. (PSTAR and other CARs acronyms aside).

If you are a up and coming CF pilot and are tempted to go and get your civilian licenses/ratings, wait for your Wings.  You can save yourself $20,000 + (even higher if you get rotorhead training) by simply writing two very basic air regulations tests (PSTAR and Commercial version).  No flying required...
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Offline volition

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #43 on: March 07, 2007, 13:13:28 »
Exactly!!! ;D
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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #44 on: March 19, 2007, 11:36:06 »
Thanks Zoomie, that clears it up for me. 

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #45 on: March 20, 2007, 08:45:06 »
Your military flight time is definitely usable towards a civilian rating. I have flown for both the military and the airlines.  I started out as a military pilot and once I had enough hours I decided to get an ATPL.  I took a condensed ATPL exam prep course and then wrote the exam. My multi engine military instrument rating was accepted by Transport Canada and no flight test was required. So long as you maintain a military instrument rating, Transport Canada will continue to renew an IFR rating on a civilian licence. I am now on a leave of absence from the airlines and once again flying for the military and this is how I keep my civilian rating current.   

Offline Avro_Arrow_1976

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Re: Pilot life after CF
« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2007, 13:51:36 »
A guy at my unit just got out after 32 years, he flew Snowbirds, F5's, Single Huey's, Twin Huey's, Labs, Twin Otters, Muskateers (training) and a few other aircraft. He accumulated 5400 hrs over his 32 years and he is now a first officer with West Jet.