Author Topic: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread  (Read 69866 times)

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Offline radiohead

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Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2007, 21:17:51 »
Personal I think both should be there, as the Ensign of teh Flag on Canada in 1917 and so it deserves its spot on the Ridge just as the Maple leaf does.

And there is no way to tell of teh vets from the ridge would of prefered the current flag as there was a lot of feeling for old Ensign.

"Secondly in 70 pages of photographs and narrative in the 1936 Canadian Geographic
Journal special edition on 1936 "Vimy Pilgrimage"

The reason for this is because Canada after the Great War went back to the Union Jack and it stayed that way until WW2 and even then it was only late in the war that canadians found their flag again.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2007, 21:20:48 by radiohead »

Offline AJFitzpatrick

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Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2007, 21:26:28 »
This a good place to start
Flags of the world
There seems to be a new flag every time a new province is added.
This makes 7+ varieties of the Canadian Red Ensign
You do run into the problem of "official" vs. "popular".
I believe this is the "four province flag" that will be flying


Added: It is not so much that a Canadian Red Ensign is flying so much as it is the correct Canadian Red Ensign.

Offline RangerRay

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Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2007, 21:34:20 »
Can anyone tell me how many versions there are of the Canadian Red Ensign

According to this , at least seven.  Scroll down the page till you see the header "History".  I appear to be incorrect.  Although the "9 province" ensign was unofficially in use, the "4 province" ensign was the "official" ensign from 1892 - 1922.
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Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2007, 22:24:55 »
This a good place to start
Flags of the world
There seems to be a new flag every time a new province is added.
This makes 7+ varieties of the Canadian Red Ensign
You do run into the problem of "official" vs. "popular".
I believe this is the "four province flag" that will be flying


Added: It is not so much that a Canadian Red Ensign is flying so much as it is the correct Canadian Red Ensign.

I goofed.

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« Last Edit: March 30, 2007, 22:43:41 by Nfld Sapper »
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Offline AJFitzpatrick

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Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2007, 22:41:27 »
I don't see how you see too many coats of arms, there are only four there. It is Ontario, Quebec, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick. Granted the Quebec and Nova Scotia are not those currently in use.
What you show is a 1955 Canadian Red Ensign England, Scotland, Ireland, France (Last time I checked those weren't provinces) + Canada
( red maple leaves as opposed to proper maple leafs).

Offline pidd

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Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2007, 17:16:52 »
Someone, I think it was Mark Steyn, once remarked: 
'Canada is the only country in the western world that celebrates its heritage by abolishing it.'

There was absolutely no need whatsover for this controversy to have occurred except for the idiocy and anti-British sentiment in the federal bureaucracy. The spokesperson for VA stated that 'only the national flag of Canada can fly on federal property'.  Rubbish.  Right now at the Vimy Memorial, the flag of France flies beside the Maple Leaf.  It is Canadian soil not French.  Every Remembrance Day, the Maple Leaf and the Union Flag fly on federal property; including the War Memorial in Ottawa.  The Union Flag was designated an official Canadian flag by act of Parliament, 18 December 1964 in order to permit continuity with Canada's relationship and history within the Commonwealth and loyalty to the Crown and is flown on certain days throughout the year and at ceremonies where Canada's participation with other Commonwealth forces are marked.  Vimy would certainly fit that scenario.

I am amazed and saddened at the apparent indifference to the once-treasured emblems of our country's past among members of the military where the very heart and soul of service identity is with the honours, the comrades, the tradition established by those who have gone before us.

Historical revisionism, the vertiable lack of teaching and reading in history over the past four decades and the insidious invention of a mythology surrounding Vimy and the Maple Leaf (as if the former was Canada's battle for independence instead of a splendid victory over the German defenders and the latter its symbol!) leaves one breathtakingly gasping for the spirit of John McCrae. Canada grew to nationhood because it was British not in spite of it.

We who serve or who have served in the Canadian Armed Forces in each generation ought to stand, not merely for our own personal preferences in protocol, drill, deportment or symbolism, but for the rich legacy, including the British, that was bought so dearly on the battlefield. 

My grandfather, Sgt. Ernest Leonard, fought at Vimy Ridge with the 19th Battalion.  Like more than half of the Canadian Expeditionary Force, he was from the British Isles.  Their loyalty, devotion and enormous sense of duty for the Empire and the Dominion at the time, ought not to so easily be airbrushed away. 

It is disgraceful that such a public display of deliberate misrepresentation by the bureaucrats, especially ones who claim to represent
veterans, should have taken place at all.  It dishonours the memory of the fallen and the cause for which they fell and makes one wonder why they would go to such lengths to deceive.

The Prime Minister's heart is in the right place by responding to the call of the veteran's organisations and the particular Red Ensign that will be raised at least signals some kind of acknowledgement and respect towards the generation of the men being honoured.

The Maple Leaf and the Union Flag, by protocol, should fly. 



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Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2007, 23:23:20 »
Well said Pidd.  PM inbound.
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Offline Babbling Brooks

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Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2007, 14:19:50 »
I remember that flag:

http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/05/i-remember-this-flag-and-those-who.html

The Government of Canada has finally come around to remembering it properly too.
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Offline Signalman150

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Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2007, 15:12:43 »
+1

My father was in the RCAF when I was a wee tad.  That's the flag I remember being painted on the tails of the Sabres, Canucks and--later--Starfighters in Europe. I have pic of me with my parents standing in front of the first Starfighter delivered to 3 Wing Zweibrucken, and yep; on the tail is the Red Ensign.

All the kids from the DND school went out to the airbase at Decimomannu in Sardinia for the "official" raising of the Maple Leaf.  It was just another school outing for me, but I still remember a sense of disappointment at seeing the new flag.  It wasn't nearly as colourful or complex as the Ensign, and to my 8 year old mind that was sad.

I've always had a soft spot for that flag; it represented Canada to me at my most impressionable age.

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Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2007, 12:06:41 »
The latest, with the usual glasses G&M wear - highlights & italics mine - shared with the usual disclaimer...

Dallaire slams decision to fly Red Ensign
INGRID PERITZ, Globe & Mail, 090439EST Jul 07
Article link

Senator Roméo Dallaire is blasting Ottawa's decision to fly the historic Red Ensign at the Canadian National Vimy Memorial, calling it an inappropriate move that also flies in the face of proper protocol.

The retired Canadian general says the Red Ensign belongs in an interpretation centre, not in a prominent spot on equal footing with the Canadian Maple Leaf and national flag of France.

"The Red Ensign is not our Canadian flag - it was our Canadian flag," Mr. Dallaire said in an interview yesterday. "To put the Red Ensign at the same level as the French and current Canadian flag is absolutely against all possible protocol. It's inappropriate."

Prime Minister Stephen Harper, after lobbying by some veterans groups, decided to fly the Red Ensign during April's 90th anniversary commemoration of the Vimy Ridge battle in France.

His government quietly decided soon afterward to fly the flag year-round.
The Red Ensign was the flag Canadian soldiers fought under during two world wars, and was replaced in 1965 by the Maple Leaf.

Mr. Dallaire decided to speak out after he was approached by another senator from Quebec, Marcel Prud'homme, who visited the Vimy memorial in France last month and was incensed to see the Red Ensign flying side by side with the Maple Leaf.

Mr. Dallaire said the Prime Minister was misguided to yield to veterans' lobbying efforts.

"He called it wrong," Mr. Dallaire said.

"Of course you respect our veterans, but you also respect protocol and you don't take spontaneous decisions like that when you're touching things of significance," Mr. Dallaire said.

Canadian protocol calls for no flag but the Canadian Maple Leaf to fly on federal monuments, so the Prime Minister had to override the rules.

Mr. Dallaire said his own father was a career soldier who fought under the Red Ensign for six years during the Second World War. "When the new flag came out, for the first little while he was a bit unhappy. But then he made a decision. He said, 'This is our new flag and this is the flag of our nation, and that's it.' He turned the page."

Mr. Dallaire, a member of the Vimy Memorial Restoration Committee, said he will raise the issue with the Harper government.

A spokesman for Veterans Affairs said the decision to fly the Red Ensign at the Vimy Memorial permanently was made by the Prime Minister's Office.

A spokesman for Jason Kenney, secretary of state for multiculturalism and Canadian identity, defended the move. He noted that a public opinion poll showed a strong majority of Canadians - 79 per cent - favoured the flying of the Red Ensign at Vimy for the April commemoration ceremony.

(My own add-on -- According to the Ipsos-Reid poll released 24 Mar 07 here, 79% said yes to this question, according to the survey details:  "...Today, Canadian government protocol allows no other flag than the Maple Leaf to fly on the federal property monument but some groups are now asking the government to forgo that protocol and fly the Red Ensign, the flag that Canadian troops fought under in World War One, alongside the Maple Leaf AT the 90th anniversary of the battle of Vimy Ridge. Do you support or oppose the two flags flying together for this occasion?")

"We can recognize the fact that the Canadian Red Ensign is an enduring source of Canadian patriotism," the spokesman, Alykhan Velshi, said. "It's entirely appropriate that it flies at the monument [in Vimy] to commemorate those soldiers who fought under it."

Mr. Dallaire said Ottawa's decision suggests the country does not know how to properly mark its history.

"You sort of wonder sometimes at the maturity of our nation in things of this nature."

Mr. Dallaire retired as a lieutenant-general in the Canadian Forces in 2000.


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Offline pidd

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Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2007, 13:09:08 »
This 'issue' is full of falsehoods mixed in with anti-British vitriol.

The protocol concerning the flying of flags on federal properties is overseen by the Department of Heritage.
The Department of Heritage, following the act of Parliament, 1964, asserts that the Royal Union Flag
ought to be flown on certain days of the year and on those occasions when the Canadian forces
participated with other Commonwealth forces, i.e., Vimy, Dieppe, Normandy, et al.

The protocol is that when just one pole is available, only the national flag can be flown.

When more than one pole is available for those days and occasions, the Royal Union Flag, aka, the Union Jack, must be flown.

That is why the Union Flag, the 'official' flag, even during the times of varieties of the Red Ensign, up to February, 1965, is always flown on Remembrance Day on federal property, e.g., the national war memorial.

The adherence to this protocol, or rather the lack of it, has created the illusion that 'only the national flag'
can fly on federal land.

The conservative government, no doubt sensitive to the political culture into which they came, chose to
respond to the requests for the Red Ensign instead of the Union Flag.  Either way, there is certain
part of Canada that never liked the British flag, the British, their ensigns, their monarchs, their wars,
their anything and, for the most part, they have had 'their' way with respect to abolishing the pre-1965
heritage of this country.

Dallaire is a disgrace for more than this.
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Online Spencer100

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Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2007, 16:57:04 »
Dilliare is every Liberal's favourite ex-General.  I can not speak to his military record but I am they upset about his record in the senate.  As Liberal appointment he has become very much a Liberal and not very friendly to his ex-profession.   

As to the flag, MY OPPION is that we have had other flags in this country and we should remember them and the people who served under them. 

Offline bannerman

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Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2008, 11:08:06 »
Interesting photo of an occasion when the Canadian Red Ensign was used as an official Canadian flag. It was, strictly speaking, one of two Canadian Flags of that time, including the Royal Union.

This photo shows the dedication of a Canadian Field Artillery memorial on Vimy Ridge in 1918. The unmistakeable figure of Sir Arthur Currie stands out among the officers around the chaplain.


Offline George Wallace

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Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2008, 12:30:07 »
That I will accept as "a" Red Ensign; but I will not accept it as "the" Canadian Red Ensign that was the flag we flew prior to the current Canadian Flag.  It does not have the Shield incorporating the ten Province's Coats of Arms.
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Offline Teddy Ruxpin

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Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2008, 13:10:23 »
There are so many versions of the Red Ensign that it is difficult to tell which is valid at which time.

This appears to be the 1901 version:



The version we all know came into service in 1921/22.

Everything you ever wanted to know about the Ensign is here:

http://www.fotw.us/flags/ca_ensgn.html
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Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2008, 18:16:38 »
This is the flag that those men we are honouring at Vimy fought and all too often died serving under.  It is fitting that a place be made for it on that place.  It was the flag that my Grandfather and Great Uncle who died at Vimy knew.  My Father and Uncles also served and died under this flag a generation later. 
True, it is not the present flag representing our Canada of today, the flag that I serve under is the Maple Leaf.  So what.  There is room for both, it is right and fitting that we make connection between our world and theirs.  Is that not the whole idea behind this exercise?  To remember and honour these men?  Sorry, but I don't feel threatened by this mark of respect.  I applaud it.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 18:39:18 by jollyjacktar »

Offline bannerman

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Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2008, 18:37:12 »
 Minister Jason Kenney launched a set of posters of Historic Flags of Canada at an Ontario school recently. It was written up in Le Droit newspaper. There is a poster of all the different Canada Red Ensigns up to 1957/65. They are all available free of charge from Heritage Canada at:
http://www.pch.gc.ca/progs/cpsc-ccsp/posters_flags_e.cfm

Offline uptheglens

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Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
« Reply #42 on: April 08, 2008, 07:17:28 »
There are so many versions of the Red Ensign that it is difficult to tell which is valid at which time.

This appears to be the 1901 version:



The version we all know came into service in 1921/22.

Everything you ever wanted to know about the Ensign is here:

http://www.fotw.us/flags/ca_ensgn.html

Here's another variation on the 1901 version (I agree that until 1922, the history of the Red Ensign in Canada is a very tortured history). It has 7 provinces (the main difference is that British Columbia's emblem is a lion, a laurel, and "BC" on it) and instead of two branches of maple leaves, the left side is a branch of maple leaves, and the right side is a branch of oak leaves and acorns. Bought this at a flea market about 15 years ago, and its dimensions are roughly 10' long and 6' tall.



Offline bannerman

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Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
« Reply #43 on: April 08, 2008, 07:47:46 »
The poster from Heritage Canada features a 1907 flag with a shield bearing the arms of all 9 provinces (Newfoundland had its own distinctive Red and Blue Ensigns).

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Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
« Reply #44 on: April 08, 2008, 13:22:25 »
gord jenkins is wrong that the flag on the podium in the 1936 dedication ceremony at Vimy was a Union Jack. This photo shows clearly that it was a large post-1922 Canadian Red Ensign.

Offline RangerRay

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Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
« Reply #45 on: April 08, 2008, 15:42:17 »
WARNING: THREAD HIJACK!

FYI, the device for BC in Uptheglens Red Ensign was the pre-Confederation emblem for the Crown Colony of British Columbia.  It is the Royal Crest with "B" and "C" on either side.  It was used in a Blue Ensign for the Colony and Province, and Union Jack for the governor/lieutenant governor, until the creation of a proper shield in 1906.



Although we had no authorisation from the Sovereign to use the Royal Crest, it has been used in our heraldry ever since.  When we were granted official supporters and crest in 1987, the Royal Crest was granted for the first time to another sovereign entity, with a differentiating mark (garland of dogwoods around the lion's neck).

The Coat of Arms of British Columbia: A Brief History

END OF HIJACK
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Offline gordjenkins

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Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
« Reply #46 on: April 12, 2008, 17:27:42 »
Reference to 'hijack"- very interesting

Actually this is called "Crest and Crown"

The crest is based on the Royal Crest of England but differenced in Canada -except for this example - by the addition of a maple leaf, and appears on the Governor General's blue flag denoting that the Governor General is a representative of the Sovereign.

It consists of a crowned gold lion standing on a twisted wreath of red and white silk and holding a maple leaf in its right paw. Above the crest is St Edward's Crown, the style preferred by the Queen. (See the article on the royal coat of arms of the United Kingdom for a discussion of different styles of crown historically used in the Commonwealth.)

The 1921 design was a Tudor crown, and the style was modernized to its current form in 1957 by the Canadian government, although the Queen had indicated her preference in May 1952, shortly after ascending the throne in February 1952.[/img]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Canada#Armorial_evolution
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Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
« Reply #47 on: April 12, 2008, 17:42:44 »
Minister Jason Kenney launched a set of posters of Historic Flags of Canada at an Ontario school recently. It was written up in Le Droit newspaper. There is a poster of all the different Canada Red Ensigns up to 1957/65. They are all available free of charge from Heritage Canada at:
http://www.pch.gc.ca/progs/cpsc-ccsp/posters_flags_e.cfm

whoa, now that's nifty stuff right there. I think I shall send them an e-mail to get a Canadian Red Ensign Flags poster then.
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Offline gordjenkins

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Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
« Reply #48 on: April 12, 2008, 19:28:03 »
Gord jenkins is wrong that the flag on the podium in the 1936 dedication ceremony at Vimy was a Union Jack. This photo shows clearly that it was a large post-1922 Canadian Red Ensign.
snip

I am ALMOST sorry I started this post on Red Ensigns 2000 plus entries ago:>)

My initial post was two years ago - and I still stand by it - (except for a droopy Red Ensign which no one in the vast audience can see !

Why all this hand wringing about Red Ensigns and Vimy.

First of all no Canadian flags were carried during the Vimy battle
or on the battlefield. Even Regimental Colours were not carried - - the only
exception being the PPCLI  but I suspect the colours were left back at RHQ!
Secondly in 70 pages of photographs and narrative in the 1936 Canadian Geographic
Journal special edition on 1936 "Vimy Pilgrimage"
 of which I have a copy
-not a Red Ensign to be seen!

The Union Jack was on the Podium at Vimy /at the parade in London
and other smaller ceremonies in France at the dedication  in 1936

So why the fuss of having Red Ensign at current memorial service on April 9th this year?


In the 61 pages of the "Vimy Pilgrimage" December 1936 Canadian Geographic Journal Vol xiii No *8  Vimy Pilgrimage
or
136 pages of therCanadian Legion of the (then) British Empire League
"The Vimy Pilgrimage" July 1938
except for this "droopy" example any Red Ensigns!!
« Last Edit: April 12, 2008, 20:37:24 by gordjenkins »
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Offline Proud_Newfoundlander

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Re: The Red Ensign and Historical Canadian Flags thread
« Reply #49 on: April 13, 2008, 14:24:58 »
I have to agree with the inclusion of the old ensign. That is the flag canadians fought and died under in 1917, not the official maple leafs flag. I also believe there was a red ensign present at the battle of Vimy Ridge