Author Topic: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?  (Read 289916 times)

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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #375 on: June 18, 2016, 14:27:29 »
We should go for the Victor III, they're 40% off !!!!!

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #376 on: June 18, 2016, 16:59:15 »
Ya, grab a few extra and put them away on the top shelf in the closet for 'later'!
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #377 on: June 28, 2016, 17:31:24 »

Offline Colin P

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #378 on: August 31, 2016, 13:23:03 »
HMCS Chicoutimi anticipated again at sea by finish of yr, says RCN commander

http://buzzbry.com/hmcs-chicoutimi-expected-back-at-sea-by-end-of-year-says-rcn-commander/

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #379 on: August 31, 2016, 20:09:08 »
That is a terribly written article. Looks like it wasn't in English originally, but translated to English with Google translate.

Offline Dimsum

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #380 on: September 07, 2016, 19:45:30 »
From the National Post.  Wonder if this will become a political hot potato in the next election?   >:D
Quote
Canadian navy will lose submarine fleet in next few years without billions in upgrades: DND report

OTTAWA — The navy’s submarine fleet will have to be cut adrift in the next few years unless the federal government opts to spend billions to upgrade the ships, according to internal Defence Department documents.

The documents show that the first submarine, HMCS Victoria, is scheduled to reach its end of service life in 2022. The other three vessels will follow until the last, HMCS Windsor, retires in 2027.

The documents, released to The Canadian Press through the Access to Information Act, peg the cost of extending the lives of the submarines at between $1.5 billion and $3 billion, depending on how long the vessels would remain in service and what technical upgrades would be made. They don’t specify when a decision needs to be made, but work needs to begin by 2020 to prevent a gap.

Military officials have recently praised the submarines. Royal Canadian Navy commander Vice-Admiral Ron Lloyd described the vessels in June as “essential” to the navy’s ability to protect the country and help NATO, an assessment that was echoed by defence chief Gen. Jonathan Vance.

“As Canadians, I think we want to know who’s operating on, above and below our water from a sovereignty perspective,” Lloyd said. “The one strategic asset that allows you to understand what’s operating below the water is a submarine. Nothing else can replace that.”

But any investment is likely to stoke controversy. The submarines have been plagued by technical problems since they were bought used from the United Kingdom in 1998 for what the Chretien government described as a bargain $750 million.

While naval officials say they have managed to fix many of the problems and have started using the submarines in earnest, two were docked early this year over concerns about shoddy welding that prevented them from diving. Another had to be repaired after breaking down en route to a training exercise in Norway in June.

At the same time, the government is preparing to shell out billions for new fighter jets while the army has been clamouring for cash for new light and heavy trucks. Half of its current truck fleet has been parked because of age and maintenance costs.

The navy is also waiting to see how much money it will get from the government for new surface warships, which are slated for construction at the same time the submarine life extension would take place. The budget was previously set at $26 billion for up to 15 vessels, but recent estimates have put the cost much higher.

    As Canadians, I think we want to know who’s operating on, above and below our water from a sovereignty perspective

Retired commodore Eric Lerhe, a senior fellow at Dalhousie University, says the navy has been trying to start a conversation about buying new submarines for some time. However, any purchase would take at least a decade, which is why a life extension to the existing fleet is considered necessary.

The document says that depending on the amount of work done, an extension could extend the lives of the submarines by between six and 18 years.

The Liberal government is currently developing a new defence policy, which will spell out what jobs the military will be expected to perform. That will have direct bearing on the types of equipment purchased in the coming years.

Lerhe acknowledged the current submarine fleet has had its teething problems. But he said actions by Russia and China plus the growing importance of the Arctic and the fact Canada has one of the longest coastlines in the world makes them essential. And he argued the estimated cost of the upgrades isn’t astronomical.

“What’s it going to cost to send peacekeepers to Mali?” he said. “In Afghanistan, the cost was $2 billion per year.”

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/canadian-navy-will-lose-submarine-fleet-in-next-few-years-without-billions-in-upgrades-dnd-report
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #381 on: September 07, 2016, 20:35:44 »
We've already wasted billions. Victoria just reached FOC in 2012, meaning we're going to get about 10 years of service life per sub (if they don't run aground again).

Time to let them retire and start a project to replace them.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #382 on: September 07, 2016, 21:15:06 »
The problem is that then you don't have submariners or commanders that know how to deploy them. Start tagging onto the Aussie build and get the 4th hull as the first one, then slowly replace them. We will sell the Victoria's off and they will be run by another country for 20 years.

Offline CBH99

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #383 on: September 08, 2016, 01:09:58 »
We could almost just treat this whole experience as a massive learning curve for submarine operations & maintenance.

The subs we purchased had quite a few problems, and the whole fleet isn't even fully operational yet - if I understand the current situation correctly.  That being said, they have proven themselves to be very capable assets & have proven the value of having submarines in service.

The Navy has been able to develop the skills & leadership within the submariner community to sustain & potentially expand this capability.  The shipyards have been able to develop the skills necessary to service the boats, complete extensive upgrades & repairs, and understand the unique challenges that submarines have when compared to maintaining surface assets.

We can look at this whole experience from either a "glass is half full, or half empty" in terms of the availability/capability the current fleet brings to the table.  But I think we could all agree that if we apply the lessons we learned from this - from multiple perspectives - we could (both the government and the Navy) provide a much more reliable service with the next fleet of subs.


*I am completely and totally out of my lane on this topic, and I'm the first to admit that there are a lot of technical details about the submarines that I am completely ignorant of.  I didn't mean to offend anybody with the above post, apologies beforehand if I do.*
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Offline MilEME09

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #384 on: September 08, 2016, 02:26:24 »
I am rather annoying that government continue to do upgrades to put of the replacement choice to another government, for god sake, start the program to replace them now, at the rate we are getting equipment if we start now, we might actually get subs when these are retiring
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #385 on: September 08, 2016, 07:53:05 »
But this is becoming the normal way of doing business.  Sea King replacement.  Aurora's were upgraded to fly into year 20XX.  AOR replacement.  Etc.

Until the parties, all of them, agree on a defence policy and then procurement system to meet that policy (Australia is doing it better in this regard), we will continue to trip over our own feet and not have the kit we need when we are really going to need it.
Everything happens for a reason.

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Offline Colin P

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #386 on: September 08, 2016, 10:07:51 »
I am rather annoying that government continue to do upgrades to put of the replacement choice to another government, for god sake, start the program to replace them now, at the rate we are getting equipment if we start now, we might actually get subs when these are retiring

The choices for replacement subs is quite limited considering our requirements, basically we will repeat what the Aussies did and look at the same contenders. I say skip the drama, and negotiate into the existing contract.

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #387 on: September 08, 2016, 10:12:44 »
The choices for replacement subs is quite limited considering our requirements, basically we will repeat what the Aussies did and look at the same contenders. I say skip the drama, and negotiate into the existing contract.

Like skipping over the YF-32 / YF-35 drama, and going straight to procuring the winner of the JSF competition?  ;)

I jest...partially, but yes, I absolutely agree with your point.  GTFOWI!  (money saved on ISS and O&M by collaborating with another like-minded nation will outweigh the acquisition costs in probably only a few years)

Regards
G2G

Offline FSTO

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #388 on: September 08, 2016, 10:20:50 »
Like skipping over the YF-32 / YF-35 drama, and going straight to procuring the winner of the JSF competition?  ;)

I jest...partially, but yes, I absolutely agree with your point.  GTFOWI!  (money saved on ISS and O&M by collaborating with another like-minded nation will outweigh the acquisition costs in probably only a few years)

Regards
G2G

Quit talking sense dammit! This is Canada don't you know!

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #389 on: September 08, 2016, 10:21:48 »
I think I have made it quite clear in the past that I favour participating in the Australian program as the best replacement choice for Canada.

But there are other, just as valid reasons for doing so than merely skipping the competition and saving on ISS and O & M.

The old "O" boat community used to share many things: Standing international exchanges of personnel, which permitted the transmission of all lessons learned on the type to all users, joint "perisher" program, sharing of tactical knowledge and adoption of best practices from one another, etc.

Such collaboration with the Aussies in a single type of sub would bring the same benefits, not to mention assist in developing personal relationships that could become extremely useful should the dragon decide to flex its muscles.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #390 on: September 08, 2016, 11:33:03 »
Like skipping over the YF-32 / YF-35 drama, and going straight to procuring the winner of the JSF competition?  ;)

I jest...partially, but yes, I absolutely agree with your point.  GTFOWI!  (money saved on ISS and O&M by collaborating with another like-minded nation will outweigh the acquisition costs in probably only a few years)

Regards
G2G

But think of the lawyers, the consultants, the journalists ----- the project managers.   >:D
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #391 on: September 08, 2016, 11:59:05 »
I think I have made it quite clear in the past that I favour participating in the Australian program as the best replacement choice for Canada.

But there are other, just as valid reasons for doing so than merely skipping the competition and saving on ISS and O & M.

The old "O" boat community used to share many things: Standing international exchanges of personnel, which permitted the transmission of all lessons learned on the type to all users, joint "perisher" program, sharing of tactical knowledge and adoption of best practices from one another, etc.

Such collaboration with the Aussies in a single type of sub would bring the same benefits, not to mention assist in developing personal relationships that could become extremely useful should when the dragon decides to flex its muscles.

OGBD, I was perhaps too discrete with my "like-minded" comments....I perhaps should have said AUSCANUKUSANZ;D

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #392 on: September 10, 2016, 14:52:47 »
Victoria-class life extension and costs not news but sadly typical of our media to recycle such things breathlessly--from May 2015:

Quote
RCN Subs Life-Extension to 2030s? Why?
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2015/05/04/mark-collins-rcn-subs-life-extension-to-2030s-why/

Mark
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Offline STONEY

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #393 on: September 13, 2016, 22:46:36 »
HMCS Windsor departed Halifax Sept. 12 in company with a French and an  American nuc boats and 10 surface ships from NATO for largest ASW exercise off east coast in 20 years .  Several different types of RCAF and contracted aircraft will also be involved over the nxt 10 days.
 

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #394 on: September 20, 2016, 15:27:25 »
There are also NATO MPAs and MHs playing with the rest of the party. 
Everything happens for a reason.

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Offline Cdn Blackshirt

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #395 on: October 14, 2016, 12:48:00 »
Any word on what DND is going to do:  Upgrade vs New Build?

Lots of competing projects for funds and I'm doubting the Liberals are looking at dramatically increasing the defense budget to accommodate them all.

Would be sad after training up all the crews that the capability would be forfeited....
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Offline STONEY

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #396 on: October 14, 2016, 16:01:36 »
I  am afraid the answer to that question is still years in the future . That program is at the back of a long line SAR  aircraft, frigates and fighters that have draging on for years and years and it seems no one can make a decision. Surprise     Surprise.    Cheers

Offline Underway

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #397 on: February 22, 2017, 20:34:28 »
Thread Necromancy activate!

Chicoutami is back on the water apparently.

http://vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca/west-coast-sub-returns-to-sea-for-trials-prior-to-operations-with-allies-1.3296840

Quote
The Canadian Press
Published Wednesday, February 22, 2017 12:24PM PST
Last Updated Wednesday, February 22, 2017 12:51PM PST


ESQUIMALT, B.C. - The Royal Canadian Navy's only operational submarine on the West Coast is doing training exercises as it readies for operations after undergoing repairs to dozens of problem welds, a spokesman said Wednesday.

Katelyn Moores, with Maritime Forces Pacific, said HMCS Chicoutimi has been doing trials since mid-December to gear up for exercises with Pacific allies later this year.

“They did repairs and inspections and then ... she was returned to sea,” she said from Esquimalt, B.C.

She said she couldn't provide any details about the Pacific exercises due to operational security.

The return to sea follows a lengthy repair and inspection process after problems were discovered in late 2015 with 30 welds on the Victoria-class submarine. Vice-Admiral Mark Norman had said the welding work was done by a subcontractor hired by a contractor working on both Chicoutimi and HMCS Victoria as well as some surface ships in Victoria.

He said the welds were passing inspections, but the navy did not realize at the time that the inspection process itself was flawed.

Moores said she didn't believe any problems have been detected on Chicoutimi since her return to sea. HMCS Victoria is undergoing the inspection and repair process, but Moores says it's not clear when that will be done.

Last spring, Norman said Chicoutimi would be fixed first, followed by Victoria, which was being used for training. HMCS Windsor is operating from its home base in Halifax. The navy's fourth sub - HMCS Corner Brook - was undergoing deep maintenance.

Canada's four long-range, diesel-electric submarines were bought from Britain's Royal Navy in 1998 for $750 million, but the transition to full Royal Canadian Navy operations has not been smooth.

The sub program has endured years of setbacks, including a fire aboard Chicoutimi in 2004 that killed Lt. Chris Saunders and sent two others to hospital during its first Canadian voyage.
HMCS Corner Brook hit the ocean floor during training exercises off Victoria in June 2011 and will be out of service until at least next year.

Norman said Canada spends roughly $200 million a year on maintaining the submarines.

Offline CBH99

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #398 on: February 22, 2017, 21:51:08 »
So the government hired a shipyard in Victoria...who subcontracted to a guy....who subcontracted again to another guy?    :-\
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Offline MilEME09

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #399 on: February 22, 2017, 22:06:22 »
So the government hired a shipyard in Victoria...who subcontracted to a guy....who subcontracted again to another guy?    :-\

well that explains why our industry is so costly
"We are called a Battalion, Authorized to be company strength, parade as a platoon, Operating as a section"