Author Topic: Running  (Read 116280 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jacksparrow

  • Member
  • ****
  • 825
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 131
Re: Running
« Reply #75 on: July 23, 2008, 09:32:48 »
Do any of you use the "roll on" stuff for muscle and cramp pains? Just want to know if they work and which one to get

Offline jacksparrow

  • Member
  • ****
  • 825
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 131
Re: Running
« Reply #76 on: July 27, 2008, 11:21:38 »
JS,

You'll find that the 858 is a bot lighter than its previous models (like the 857).  I am currently training for a half (already have a few half and full under my belt).  During the week I will run 6-8 km and tend to really put it all out there for the 6 km runs.  Don't run your shorter runs the same pace you do for the long runs.  It's only 2.4 km.  Get out there and try to go a little faster than is comfortable and don't let your mind wander.  Really, for a distance like that for someone who can put otu longer distances, it really is mind over matter.  If you start thinking it's hurting, tell yourself it's only about 15 minutes.  Compared to the 3+ hrs it takes for the full marathon (5+ in my case  ;D) it really makes it that much easier!

Thanks for this mate! I did everything you suggested and  I went back to my old adidas running shoes, as supposed to the new "new balance 858 acteva ) I got.

I found that the new balance were slightly heavy on my feet cos they were size 13 ( my running shoe size ) from that manufacturer, bu the adidas looked slightly smaller and not as heavy.

I breathe in thru the nose and mouth and out thru the mouth every 2 steps. I had no cramps and I did 5k this morning with a sprint at the end in 32mins.

As suggested, am going to keep a steady pace and increase my distance 4 days a week.

Offline punkd

  • Member
  • ****
  • 1,950
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 120
Re: Running
« Reply #77 on: July 27, 2008, 12:25:27 »
Thanks fellas! I know I can do this, and in my hay days, I could have blasted thru' 2.4km in 9 mins or less. My last full 26.2 miles marathon in LA, was 8 years ago. I am now 35 and been married for 5yrs. See what marriage does to ya  ;D

Running alone doesn't help either, I know if I was in a group, I'll be pushing to finish top as long as there is a good pace.

So what happens at St jean if God forbids one doesn't manage to come in under the time specified? I just seem to have too much on my plate right now, I am learning to swim 3 days a week and trying to squeeze in running every other day. Also am on the road 4hrs a day driving to and from work.

In St Jean they will test you with a 20 meter shuttle run, not a 2.4k.

Offline newmet

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 1,340
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 90
Re: Running
« Reply #78 on: July 27, 2008, 22:52:31 »
Thanks fellas! I know I can do this, and in my hay days, I could have blasted thru' 2.4km in 9 mins or less. My last full 26.2 miles marathon in LA, was 8 years ago. I am now 35 and been married for 5yrs. See what marriage does to ya  ;D

Running alone doesn't help either, I know if I was in a group, I'll be pushing to finish top as long as there is a good pace.

So what happens at St jean if God forbids one doesn't manage to come in under the time specified? I just seem to have too much on my plate right now, I am learning to swim 3 days a week and trying to squeeze in running every other day. Also am on the road 4hrs a day driving to and from work.

Hi JS
All I can say is keep running.  When I started running before BMQ I was doing the 2.4 km in over 20 minutes.  By the time I left I was running the 2.4 km in around 15 minutes.  I too led a very busy life before I went but thought I would do alright physically.  Boy, was I wrong.  I ended up on RFT (recruit fitness training), great program, harder than h@%%.  You definately do not want to end up there!  Too many people get broken there.  However, now that I am done BMQ I can run my 2.5 km in uder 12 minutes, not too bad for a 31 yr old, who was out of shape before she went :)  All I can suggest is to find some really good music to run to and try to run a little farther, faster each time.  For instance, if you are outside running, sprint from one telephone pole to the next, slow down to a normal run for 2 or 3 poles and keep sprinting more, taking less breaks between the sprints as you can.  This helped me and my instructor recommended that to me.  I have been and always will be a slow long distance runner, I am still trying to speed up; however, due to stress fractures on my left foot, gotten while on RFT, I am slowly getting myself fixed too, along with trying to run faster.   
Ahhh, running for me can take place outside or in on the track, I hate running on treadmills personnally.  My pace is mostly the same in either place; however, inside is nice as there are no hills :)   There are no hills around the Mega.
Let's see, if you don't come under the time alotted for the Express Test, the result is RFT (see comment above,you do NOT want to end up there!, besides being very physically demanding and placing you in a position to get injured, you are in St. Jean for longer than you should be).  If you make the Express Test and are slow on the runs, be prepared to see the not so smiling faces of your platoon swinging back to pick you up.  If you're last in the platoon be prepared to get yelled at, alot!  I was never that far back, mind you some days I could till hear the instructor yelling the the people who were. 
As for pain rub ons, I recommend Tiger Balm, great for the pain and sends instructors away quickly due to the smell :)
Let's see, final note, you say you are busy busy right now, I can understand that, here is my little bit of information for you to consider... if you fail the express test you could end up on RFT or released.  If you fail the swim test you end up taking make up classes for 8 weeks, then after that you retest and if you pass, great, if you fail it is a note on your file stating that you failed the test and need to take more classes.  Notice the difference between consequences?  If you're worried about any part of your physical level I would focus on that.
So all I can say in closing, I know, long post :)  Good luck and keep up the hard work, you will definately see an improvement on your running time as you continue to push yourself and soon enough you will be running with the pack.

Offline jacksparrow

  • Member
  • ****
  • 825
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 131
Re: Running
« Reply #79 on: July 28, 2008, 08:35:48 »
Wow....Newmet, you gave a good insight into what to expect at st jean and I like the picture you painted of the test, it really put things into perspective. One thing am still not clear on though, if we are not going to be tested on the 2.4km run, why is it everywhere that you have to finish in a certain time according to your age?

Someone else mentioned the  20m shuttle run above, what does that entail and how is it tested, individually or as a group? Am confused

Cheers

PS: by the look of things right now, I think am going to be able to do the 50m, 20m, 3m jump and somersault swim, but my treading is still letting me down.

Offline newmet

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 1,340
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 90
Re: Running
« Reply #80 on: July 28, 2008, 09:48:06 »
Wow....Newmet, you gave a good insight into what to expect at st jean and I like the picture you painted of the test, it really put things into perspective. One thing am still not clear on though, if we are not going to be tested on the 2.4km run, why is it everywhere that you have to finish in a certain time according to your age?  I don't know the whole answer to this; however, you will be running more than 2.4 kms when you start on platoon, you normally will start at a low amount of kms, with lots of stops for sit ups, push ups, etc and move to a longer run with less stops by the end of BMQ, that's how our instructors did it anyway.  Also, the speed in which you are able to run the 2.4 km is calculated into how far you "should" be able to run in the express test.  For instance, when I got to BMQ, I was running the 2.4 km in around 15 minutes, I was only able to get to 3.5 on the shuttle run.  Now that I can run my 2.4 km in around 11 minutes, I can get over 6 on the shuttle run.  I am not sure where the calculation can be found, I know I saw it on basic though.

Someone else mentioned the  20m shuttle run above, what does that entail and how is it tested, individually or as a group? Am confused
  20m shuttle run, or the beep test.  This test is a 20m run (obviously) each way, you run 20m, wait for the beep and then run back the 20 m again, wait for the beep, etc.  You are going back and forth in a set amount of time.  For the lower levels you run 7-8 stretches of the 20 meters and you have 1 minute for each level.  So, for example on level 2, you have approximately 7.5 seconds to run from one end to the other.  Then you turn around and do it again.  Past level 4 the beeps get faster and there are more stretches to do for each level, sorry I can't remeber it all, I tend to block bad memories :)  On test day, your whole platoon will go to the gym and get ready for the test, your heart rate and blood pressure will be tested and you will be divided into 3-4 groups.  The PSP staff will run with each group for the first stage of the test, make sure you run with them, they have the right pace so you don't burn out too fast.  You complete your express test and then you move onto hand grip, push ups and then sit ups.  PSP are evil in St. Jean, your push ups have to be perfect, thumbs under your shoulder and arms down to 90 degrees to the ground when you go down.  If you fail the run you end up on RFT, or possible released from the military, if you fail 2 strength components of the test, same things.  For instance, if you pass the run but fail on the push ups (a lot of people do) and the hand grip you go to RFT or released.  If; however, you just fail the push ups and pass everything else, you continue on course and everyone is retested in week 10, you don't pass what you failed at week 10, retest on grad week, if you fail, RFT.
Cheers

PS: by the look of things right now, I think am going to be able to do the 50m, 20m, 3m jump and somersault swim, but my treading is still letting me down.  For the swim test, you roll into the pool and tread water for 2 minutes, swim the half length of the pool and pull yourself out onto the bridge, then you jump from the board (sorry I don't know the height, I kept my eyes closed), swim the half length of the pool again and get out.  All done, so practice your treading water.  Keep in mind, you do the test in your combats and you can tie of your pant legs and top to keep air inside to help you float.

Best of luck and feel free to ask me any questions you have, I certainly don't have all the answers but I am willing to share what I know.  Take care.

Offline jacksparrow

  • Member
  • ****
  • 825
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 131
Re: Running
« Reply #81 on: July 28, 2008, 10:46:06 »
Thanks for that. I looked up my age group 35-39, and it says I need level 5.5. Am sure if I push myself hard enough, I should be able to make that level, I'll hate to have to go to RFT.

I guess it helps to keep up with the group also eh

Offline jacksparrow

  • Member
  • ****
  • 825
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 131
Re: Running
« Reply #82 on: July 28, 2008, 11:47:36 »
Found this info:

Q: How long is the shuttle run from start to level 6.5?

A: The run is EXACTLY six minutes and 30 seconds. From stage six to six and a half there are only two laps. However, they are the fastest laps!

its something like 52 times back and forth

each stage is 8, 20 meter lengths
8x6 = 48 + 4 =52, 20 m lengths.

1040 m in about 6.5 min

the trick is to not go fast. timing is everything. you do not want to waste energy speeding up and slowing down.

just remember at stage 5.5 you only have 8 lengths to go
























Offline Canuckanese

  • Guest
  • *
  • 0
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2
Re: Running
« Reply #83 on: August 10, 2008, 12:31:07 »
There are some things I'd like to ask regarding running.

Ok, so I'm going for the Reserves, the GGHG, and I've passed all my testing. For my fitness test, I passed it, and at that time, I was able to run 2.4km in about 15 minutes.

For the summer, I've been running at set times while steadily increasing the amount of time I run weekly, as suggested in the Canadian Forces fitness guide. I assumed that, the longer I can run, the better my endurance will be, meaning that eventually I would be able to run 2.4km in under 12 minutes.

However now I'm starting to doubt this, and am wondering, should I focus on duration of time running? Or running 2.4km as fast as I can?

Another question, should there be a specific time to run each day? I've found that I'm most successful at night, but sometimes my results during day can be atrocious. Considering that most running in BMQ will be conducted during daylight, should I focus on running during the day?

Also, would anybody happen to know when Reserve BMQ (Fall) begins for the GGHG?

Offline JayJay144

  • Guest
  • *
  • 180
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 20
Re: Running
« Reply #84 on: August 10, 2008, 12:38:54 »
I'm going through the reg force application process and as I understand it you need 12 minutes and under to pass. I do it in 8 minutes.

Check your daily diet it has a lot to do with how well you run. I've been eating lots of pastas, chicken and steak for my training. High carbs and protein. stay away from the junk food and drink lots of water and lemonade because it has natural electrolytes. Running in the morning and night is the most ideal but if you run during the day (the hot days) your body learns how to hydrate in those circumstances so that is beneficial.

hope this helps.

Offline punkd

  • Member
  • ****
  • 1,950
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 120
Re: Running
« Reply #85 on: August 10, 2008, 12:39:29 »
As for running long or short distances, why not do both? I'm not sure how many days you are setting a side for training. But ill guess around 3?

1st training day - do a nice slow run to build up your endurance, maybe say 5k? (you can increase or decrease as you feel necessary to fit your needs/shape)
rest day
2nd training day - try sprints, use telephone poles for example. Sprint between 1 pole to the next, then either walk the next pole, or do a slow jog. then sprint again. repeat as many times as you can.
rest day
3rd training day - do another slow run, say 5k again? but this time compete against your time from your previous 5k run, time is your best competitor!

You should also throw in some pushups/situps/weights etc.. but you asked about running so ill leave all that stuff out.

The main thing is CONSISTENCY, it doesn't matter how you run, as long as get out there and actually do it.

edit (sp)
« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 14:28:30 by punkd »

Offline standingdown

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 56,425
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,399
Re: Running
« Reply #86 on: August 10, 2008, 13:49:09 »
As for running long or short distances, why not do both? I'm not sure how many days you are setting a side for training. But ill guess around 3?

1st training day - do a nice slow run to build up your endurance, maybe say 5k? (you can increase or decrease as you feel necessary to fit your needs/shape)
rest day
2nd training day - try sprints, use telephone poles for example. Sprint between 1 pole to the next, then either walk the next pole, or do a slow jog. then sprint again. repeat as many times as you can.
rest day
3rd training day - do another slow run, say 5k again? but this time compete against your time from your previous 5k run, time is your best competitor!

You should also throw in some pushups/situps/weights etc.. but you asked about running so ill leave all that stuff out.

The main this is CONSISTENCY, it doesn't matter how you run, as long as get out there any actually do it.

Good advice. I've always found that its important to build a decent distance base before you start trying to hit fast times, as long slow runs seem to be an army favourite.

I try to run one longer run (10km) a week plus one faster 5km and either a 2.4km all out or some type of interval training. To re-iterate, its mostly about effort and consistency, and you will see gains.

Offline Canuckanese

  • Guest
  • *
  • 0
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2
Re: Running
« Reply #87 on: August 11, 2008, 00:11:00 »
Many thanks for the advice guys, I'll start that routine tomorrow. I've already got a call from the GG's, they asked if I was still interested in enrolling so I assume the swearing in ceremony will come shortly, with BMQ starting not long after that.

Doesn't give me much time to prepare, training the wrong way really screwed me over, but at least because it's the fall BMQ, I'll still have time to train in between the weekends.

Offline jbennie

  • Guest
  • *
  • 20
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2
Re: Running
« Reply #88 on: August 21, 2008, 15:36:52 »
I am not currently in the army yet but am in the process of joining and have my aptitude test and medical test on Aug.29th.

I was looking through this thread and thought maybe I could help out a bit maybe with some advise.  I am currently a marathon runner and have been doing it for the last 2 years now, and have a little Kinesiology knowledge.  Hill running is a very good way to train since it helps :

    *  develop power and muscle elasticity
    * improves stride frequency and length
    * develops co-ordination, encouraging the proper use of arm action during the driving phase and feet in the support phase
    * develops control and stabilization as well as improved speed (downhill running)
    * promotes strength endurance
    * develops maximum speed and strength (short hills)
    * improves lactate tolerance (mixed hills)

Also I notice that some people have talked about having side stitches and I have a little advise for that.  If it is on your right side (which is most common), slow down for 30 seconds and exhale forcefully each time your left foot hits the ground and the opposite for the left side.  Another option is to dig your fist in under your rib cage and bend over 90 degrees, this helps to stretches out the diaphragm.  Another easy one is to not eat one hour before you run since it could be caused by food in your stomach.

I also noticed that everyone is talking about training and such but no one has mention anything about nutrition.  60-65% or your diet should be complex carbs, 15-20% should be protein. If you are a long distance runner you should take in considerations that you should be eating .5-.75 grams of protein per pound of body weight.  Then 25% of fat from foods such as  nuts, oils, and cold-water fish provide essential fats called omega-3s.

Another important thing to watch is your sodium levels when you run since you sweat it out. Most people can drink a energy drink after and be fine but I have notice a few runners need more then this.  If you find after your run and have a white salty film on your for heard that you might want to talk to your doctor.  Just watch your salt intake and amount of energy drinks you have in a day because you could be doing damage to your liver.

Hope this helps somewhat.



Offline apache2001

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 70
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 60
Re: Running
« Reply #89 on: August 21, 2008, 22:43:29 »
Jbennie thank you for the information.  It sure helps.  I trained on an uphill/downhill 5km each day for a week before testing myself at PPA in Orillia.  I did well on the 20msr.  We stopped at 6.5 but I did it twice.   ;)
"What We Have To Learn To Do, We Learn By Doing" - Aristotle
"Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise" - Proverbs 6:6

Offline Kr3w

  • New Member
  • **
  • 830
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 40
Re: Running
« Reply #90 on: August 25, 2008, 15:56:43 »
Hey, I just got a question that I'm not really sure of. Most people say that you should workout/run one day on and one off. I do work out and follow that schedule but its the running part that questionable. I run about 11km everyday, and have noticed that every day I'm cutting my running time down. Before I use to run 5km every second day and haven't had any large cut downs, even when I first started to run 5km. So why is it that people say workout one day and do cardio the next. (Other than the fact that it builds muscle faster) So is it better to run every day, or second day. Or is it just based on how your body is built?
Thanks :cdn:

Offline apache2001

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 70
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 60
Re: Running
« Reply #91 on: August 25, 2008, 18:41:17 »
Hey, I just got a question that I'm not really sure of. Most people say that you should workout/run one day on and one off. I do work out and follow that schedule but its the running part that questionable. I run about 11km everyday, and have noticed that every day I'm cutting my running time down. Before I use to run 5km every second day and haven't had any large cut downs, even when I first started to run 5km. So why is it that people say workout one day and do cardio the next. (Other than the fact that it builds muscle faster) So is it better to run every day, or second day. Or is it just based on how your body is built?
Thanks :cdn:

There are a lot of reasons and answers from prev posts but one is that it gives time for the muscle groups to heal or grow.  ;)
"What We Have To Learn To Do, We Learn By Doing" - Aristotle
"Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise" - Proverbs 6:6

Offline jbennie

  • Guest
  • *
  • 20
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2
Re: Running
« Reply #92 on: August 25, 2008, 18:49:11 »
Odds are that you are going to get many different response to this, but personally it really depends on how hard I run.    If I am putting in 100% effort then I like to wait a day before I go and run again.  If I am going slower and my time to finish isn't in the mean then I know that I can run the next day but maybe not as far.  You might also want to take into consideration what you do in your daily life like if you walk around allot or any heavy lifting? It is true about what they say that you should let muscles rebuild them selfs.  If you want you can try and look at different exercise that work different parts of the legs like lunges or maybe some yoga (if thats your thing). 

Offline jacob_ns

  • New Member
  • **
  • 1,232
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 49
Re: Running
« Reply #93 on: September 29, 2008, 20:18:11 »
Here's the running/jogging plan I'm currently on to improve my running abilities. I found it online and it's called "The Couch-to-5K Running Plan". It's about 30 minutes three times per week and slowly increases your distance run without overdoing it.

As an example, week one consists of three workouts. You start out with a 5 minute walk to warm up and then you get into the workout. You jog/run for 60 seconds and walk for 90 seconds. You do this for a total of 20 minutes. This would be Mon, Wed and Fri.

Week two would be jogging/running for 90 seconds and walking for 2 minutes for a total of 20 minutes three times per week. As the weeks progress you're increasing your time allowing your body to really get used to the distances.

I'm on week two and I can say without a doubt that this plan is working. My first time out I thought I couldn't finish the 20 minutes, but I pushed myself and did it. My second time I was able to finish the 20 minutes with less effort (it still took a lot of effort) and by day three I was able to run/jog for 60 seconds each time without becoming overly winded.

I'm not in bad shape as I do a lot of work outside (cutting, clearing, blocking firewood etc) but running is something I haven't done for a long time. I really am a "new runner" but i'm already seeing improvements.


Offline whitey

  • New Member
  • **
  • 715
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 33
Re: Running
« Reply #94 on: September 29, 2008, 21:42:15 »
Hey, I just got a question that I'm not really sure of. Most people say that you should workout/run one day on and one off. I do work out and follow that schedule but its the running part that questionable. I run about 11km everyday, and have noticed that every day I'm cutting my running time down. Before I use to run 5km every second day and haven't had any large cut downs, even when I first started to run 5km. So why is it that people say workout one day and do cardio the next. (Other than the fact that it builds muscle faster) So is it better to run every day, or second day. Or is it just based on how your body is built?
Thanks :cdn:

Cardio every day. Unless your just looking to seriously throw on some muscle and weight. In that case a 10 minute warm up, jumping jacks, skipping, to get your heart rate up before you start lifting. I'm no expert, but my advice is cardio after lifting and a 10 minute warm up and core stretch before you start lifting is key. I work out 7 days a week upper 1 day lower the next. 5k 1 day 10k the next. (lots of swimming inthe summer.) Oh and for your warm up, jumping jacks, skippings, 10 minutes on the elipitcal or treadmill, just get the blood flowing and the heart rate up. Hope this idiot's opinion helps.


Offline Kr3w

  • New Member
  • **
  • 830
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 40
Re: Running
« Reply #95 on: September 30, 2008, 15:26:16 »
Cardio every day. Unless your just looking to seriously throw on some muscle and weight. In that case a 10 minute warm up, jumping jacks, skipping, to get your heart rate up before you start lifting. I'm no expert, but my advice is cardio after lifting and a 10 minute warm up and core stretch before you start lifting is key. I work out 7 days a week upper 1 day lower the next. 5k 1 day 10k the next. (lots of swimming inthe summer.) Oh and for your warm up, jumping jacks, skippings, 10 minutes on the elipitcal or treadmill, just get the blood flowing and the heart rate up. Hope this idiot's opinion helps.

Yes, I started running at longer distances 12km now and have noticed some improvements. Also put in some sprinting and some weight lifting which really helped. I often go running with a partner now too, some competition goes a long way ;D Kinda chillin on the running know... Sorta killed my knee about a week ago and BMQ is creepin up pretty quick >:(

Thanks fellas, I'll try out the warm up, only did some jumping jacks and push ups before.


Offline kurolap

  • Guest
  • *
  • 380
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8
Re: Running
« Reply #96 on: October 02, 2008, 17:02:37 »
If you can run 3km you can run 5km, and if you can run 5 you can run 10... it's just a matter of how far you go before you give up. If you don't let yourself quit you'd be surprised how far you can go.

best advice. i went from 3.5 km- to 5 km- to 6.5 in only 2 week.  6.5 in 29:58
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remembered-
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Offline jacob_ns

  • New Member
  • **
  • 1,232
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 49
Re: Running
« Reply #97 on: October 02, 2008, 19:57:51 »
best advice. i went from 3.5 km- to 5 km- to 6.5 in only 2 week.  6.5 in 29:58

I will disagree with this if you're a new runner. If you go too far, too soon you are likely to end up with an injury that can seriously delay your ability to improve.

Offline Pte_Squire

  • Guest
  • *
  • 40
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4
  • Eat thunder!!! Crap Amazing!!!
Re: Running
« Reply #98 on: October 03, 2008, 08:49:29 »
I've never been a good runner and I leave for BMQ in 2 days. What happens if I can't meet the running requirement? I can pass all the other PT Tests but I still need more work on my running. I've never had the strongest lungs and legs for running. I am trying though.



Offline jacob_ns

  • New Member
  • **
  • 1,232
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 49
Re: Running
« Reply #99 on: October 03, 2008, 14:12:35 »
I've never been a good runner and I leave for BMQ in 2 days. What happens if I can't meet the running requirement? I can pass all the other PT Tests but I still need more work on my running. I've never had the strongest lungs and legs for running. I am trying though.

If you cannot complete the physical requirements when you get to St. Jean, you get put into RFT (Recruit Fitness Training). I found the below with the search function.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,64107.0.html