Author Topic: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS  (Read 482858 times)

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Offline Pat in Halifax

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #650 on: February 18, 2015, 08:11:13 »
It is actually being referred to officially as a Constabulary vice Combat vessel.
This was made clear in Cdr MacLean's brief to MARLANT anyway.
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Offline Monsoon

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #651 on: February 18, 2015, 09:21:08 »
I don't think it requires a heavy gun as it will never see combat. There is a lot more things required to have a 57 mm, ammo handling system, bigger mag, more weapon techs etc. The 25mm will be plenty for what it will be required to do.
Yep - it's primarily an ISR platform, not a combattant.

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #652 on: February 18, 2015, 09:36:32 »
From an article under the name of VADM Maddison in 2011 (scroll down):

Quote
...
AOPS will not be a complex combatant. It will be armed and equipped for a constabulary role in support of other government departments...
http://vanguardcanada.com/preparing-for-a-unique-maritime-theatre/

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #653 on: February 18, 2015, 09:40:13 »
I wonder if the fleet will be assisting with Parks Canada on their research intiatives in the arctic? That would be a sail I would want to go on!
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Offline Pat in Halifax

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #654 on: February 18, 2015, 09:52:55 »
I wonder if the fleet will be assisting with Parks Canada on their research intiatives in the arctic? That would be a sail I would want to go on!
We are already. Have a look at some of the images from the discovery of the EREBUS. You will see the ocassional grey thing in the background. As well, side scan sonar operators from the RCN have sailed on other vessels.
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #655 on: February 18, 2015, 10:11:50 »
It is actually being referred to officially as a Constabulary vice Combat vessel.
This was made clear in Cdr MacLean's brief to MARLANT anyway.

One can make the same argument about the USCG ships and they are armed with heavier weapons. This is cost cutting dressed up in words.

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #656 on: February 18, 2015, 10:59:09 »
We are already. Have a look at some of the images from the discovery of the EREBUS. You will see the ocassional grey thing in the background. As well, side scan sonar operators from the RCN have sailed on other vessels.

That's awesome, everybody I talked to at my home unit has never heard of any partnership. Im glad to hear that though. Hopefully I get the oppurtunity to serve on that operation.
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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #657 on: February 18, 2015, 11:22:15 »
Yep - it's primarily an ISR platform, not a combattant.

Just because it's anticipated as such, doesn't mean it won't be thrust upon it one day.  If, the Arctic is going to be a potential flash point who knows what might happen done the road.  I am sure there are many examples of Constabulary forces thrust into combat unexpectedly.  (NWMP in 1885 for one)  And even they had field guns.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #658 on: February 18, 2015, 11:25:18 »
One can make the same argument about the USCG ships and they are armed with heavier weapons. This is cost cutting dressed up in words.

Colin (and Jack), I think you are treading the same path as the critics of the Yankee LCS programme - in days gone by guns were the only means of reaching out and touching somebody.  Missiles changed that game and perhaps more thought should go into leaving deck space for bolt on systems like the Harpoon and SeaRAM.  But most folks don't seem to see the role of the armed helo, and more to the point the armed UAV (like the Firescout), in extending the surveillance envelope as well as the range at which targets can be engaged while the launching platform is mast-down over the horizon.

If any CF vessel on patrol is actively engaged by a near-peer vessel in a one-on-one engagement I am guessing that that is not a preferred scenario for any skipper.  Ideally I would think the preferred plan would be to detect before being detected and then vector HE to the target. That HE can be delivered by Patrol Aircraft, Fighter, Armed Helo, Predator, Firescout or those traditional, disposable UAVs -guided missiles.

But the AOPS, I don't believe, is expected to be operating in those types of situations.  Most of its time is going to be spent in boring show-the-flag sovereignty patrols in a very quiet arctic while standing as gate guard on the Northwest Passage and as SAR guard for civil air traffic.

The rest of the time will be spent with the following comms "Radio Check" and "Nothing to Report".

But....

Having said that, it is important that those negative reports be filed as they verify our claim to the territory by right of regular usage.
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Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #659 on: February 18, 2015, 12:19:13 »
Colin (and Jack), I think you are treading the same path as the critics of the Yankee LCS programme - in days gone by guns were the only means of reaching out and touching somebody.  Missiles changed that game and perhaps more thought should go into leaving deck space for bolt on systems like the Harpoon and SeaRAM.  But most folks don't seem to see the role of the armed helo, and more to the point the armed UAV (like the Firescout), in extending the surveillance envelope as well as the range at which targets can be engaged while the launching platform is mast-down over the horizon.

If any CF vessel on patrol is actively engaged by a near-peer vessel in a one-on-one engagement I am guessing that that is not a preferred scenario for any skipper.  Ideally I would think the preferred plan would be to detect before being detected and then vector HE to the target. That HE can be delivered by Patrol Aircraft, Fighter, Armed Helo, Predator, Firescout or those traditional, disposable UAVs -guided missiles.

But the AOPS, I don't believe, is expected to be operating in those types of situations.  Most of its time is going to be spent in boring show-the-flag sovereignty patrols in a very quiet arctic while standing as gate guard on the Northwest Passage and as SAR guard for civil air traffic.

The rest of the time will be spent with the following comms "Radio Check" and "Nothing to Report".

But....

Having said that, it is important that those negative reports be filed as they verify our claim to the territory by right of regular usage.

From what I have seen after deploying to the Arctic on ship five times now, the stuff we did will mostly likely be the same kind of stuff AOPS will be doing and 99% percent of that is very boring but absoultely needed. If we need an armed combatant AOPS will call in Air or vector in a warship. AOPS will be ill suited to survive any direct combat situation, its simply not built for that.
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Offline Monsoon

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #660 on: February 18, 2015, 12:42:32 »
Just because it's anticipated as such, doesn't mean it won't be thrust upon it one day.  If, the Arctic is going to be a potential flash point who knows what might happen done the road.  I am sure there are many examples of Constabulary forces thrust into combat unexpectedly.  (NWMP in 1885 for one)  And even they had field guns.
The NWMP were formed and equipped to put down another Red River Rebellion-style armed insurrection.

Using your line of logic we might as well have mounted Harpoons and a CIWS on QUEST. Weapons' fit isn't static; whatever geopolitical situation may be developing in the arctic is developing slowly enough that we'll have loooots of time to upgrade the deck gun if and when needed.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #661 on: February 18, 2015, 12:53:18 »
From what I have seen after deploying to the Arctic on ship five times now, the stuff we did will mostly likely be the same kind of stuff AOPS will be doing and 99% percent of that is very boring but absoultely needed. If we need an armed combatant AOPS will call in Air or vector in a warship. AOPS will be ill suited to survive any direct combat situation, its simply not built for that.

And neither would one of our current MCDV survive such combat as they are also not built for that, as neither were the minesweepers before; and neither could a WWII corvette have survived contact with the Bismark, etc. etc.

That does not mean that they are not warships or that they serve no purpose, just that their purpose does not require them to be Battleships.

AOPS will be constabulary, but my suspicion is that they won't ever have to fire a shot in anger. So much so, in fact, that I would not be surprised to see them being turned over to the Coast Guard within 5 years of entering service. IMO, the most useful thing they could possibly do would be to load the survey gear and assist with the surveying required to completely update the nautical charts for the area, which to this day remain the most incomplete ones in Canada.

As for the 25 mm gun, too bad it's going to be the BAE one. Would have loved to see us adopt the same Raphael Typhoon the Aussies use: That could have justified "training" exchanges with the RAN on their Armidale patrol boats.  One can always dream.  :)

Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #662 on: February 18, 2015, 13:21:04 »
And neither would one of our current MCDV survive such combat as they are also not built for that, as neither were the minesweepers before; and neither could a WWII corvette have survived contact with the Bismark, etc. etc.

That does not mean that they are not warships or that they serve no purpose, just that their purpose does not require them to be Battleships.

AOPS will be constabulary, but my suspicion is that they won't ever have to fire a shot in anger. So much so, in fact, that I would not be surprised to see them being turned over to the Coast Guard within 5 years of entering service. IMO, the most useful thing they could possibly do would be to load the survey gear and assist with the surveying required to completely update the nautical charts for the area, which to this day remain the most incomplete ones in Canada.

As for the 25 mm gun, too bad it's going to be the BAE one. Would have loved to see us adopt the same Raphael Typhoon the Aussies use: That could have justified "training" exchanges with the RAN on their Armidale patrol boats.  One can always dream.  :)

I agree that they will most likely never fire a shot in anger, most of what they will do is exactly what the MCDV's currently do and that is to show the flag, patrol and an armed presence in the Arctic. When not in the Arctic, they will do fisheries, relief missions and anything else the RCN deems for them, just like what the MCDV's currently do but with a more capable platform. I would imagine they will a large role in force generation as well as they will have a large number of training bunks. I highly doubt the AOPS will be turned over to CCG willingly, memories of HMCS Labrador still are fresh and if Adm Newton is still about this will never happen. I agree that hydrographic work will be a major task for them, just as HMCS Kingston only recently did off Arctic Bay last fall.
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #663 on: February 18, 2015, 13:48:15 »
Don't know what you means concerning the LABRADOR, Chief.

She was transferred to the Coast Guard in 1957. A boy seaman serving onboard would be 75 years old today, so I have no idea who could possibly have a fresh memory of her.

There never was any "bad" memory of this transfer by the Navy. I joined in 1975 and never did I hear anyone bemoan the fact that we "got rid of LABRADOR". She did her few patrols - mostly helped with the original DEW line radar sites construction, and was quietly turned over to the CG near the height of the RCN post war fleet build up, not as a cost cutting measure, but because it was quickly found she served no real defence purpose.

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #664 on: February 18, 2015, 14:01:27 »
The NWMP were formed and equipped to put down another Red River Rebellion-style armed insurrection.

Using your line of logic we might as well have mounted Harpoons and a CIWS on QUEST. Weapons' fit isn't static; whatever geopolitical situation may be developing in the arctic is developing slowly enough that we'll have loooots of time to upgrade the deck gun if and when needed.

Actually, no, the NWMP were not formed for that reason.  My Great Grandfather was one of the original 300.  They were formed to try and put down the Whiskey Trade that was originating from Montana as well as to bring law and order to the territories.  The NW Rebellion of 1885 came 12 years after the creation of the NWMP in 1873. 

My point, is that just because the GoC envisions a constabulary presence in the form of AOPS being just a constabulary presence doesn't mean that they might not find themselves in the shyte all of a sudden.  I am not suggesting the 25mm gun is enough or not enough for that role.  Only that, that role, might all of a sudden change into something bigger.  As someone else pointed out the USCG is a constabulary force overall, but they are prepared to do more if forced upon it, as has happened.  That, was my point.




Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #665 on: February 18, 2015, 14:06:52 »
Then put a big enough hole in the deck in which you can bury a container that can handle the 25, a 57, a 76 or even a pack of ESSMs.

It has been done before.  You could even put a removable whisky locker in the space if the primary purpose was to keep Hans Island free of Danes in a non-threatening manner.
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Offline Monsoon

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #666 on: February 18, 2015, 15:08:41 »
Actually, no, the NWMP were not formed for that reason.  My Great Grandfather was one of the original 300.  They were formed to try and put down the Whiskey Trade that was originating from Montana as well as to bring law and order to the territories.  The NW Rebellion of 1885 came 12 years after the creation of the NWMP in 1873. 
And the Red River Rebellion of 1869/70 came about three years prior to the formation of the NWMP. As it's off the topic of this thread, I'm going to invite you not to try to convince me the two were completely unrelated. I concede that the NWMP subsequently did lots of customs enforcement, but that's not why they were given cannons.

Quote
My point, is that just because the GoC envisions a constabulary presence in the form of AOPS being just a constabulary presence doesn't mean that they might not find themselves in the shyte all of a sudden.  I am not suggesting the 25mm gun is enough or not enough for that role.  Only that, that role, might all of a sudden change into something bigger.  As someone else pointed out the USCG is a constabulary force overall, but they are prepared to do more if forced upon it, as has happened.  That, was my point.
If something like that happened "all of the sudden" without any I&W leading up to it, it would be pretty unprecedented. At present, we have no reason to expect an armed confrontation in the arctic and have equipped ourselves accordingly. What we do need is ISR, and we're getting that.

Then put a big enough hole in the deck in which you can bury a container that can handle the 25, a 57, a 76 or even a pack of ESSMs.
It's fitted for a payload. Modularized packages that carry everything from ESSMs to Harpoons are readily available for purchase off the shelf (the sort the Danish Flyvefisken-class OPVs use). If and when we decide we need them.

Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #667 on: February 18, 2015, 15:37:20 »
Don't know what you means concerning the LABRADOR, Chief.

She was transferred to the Coast Guard in 1957. A boy seaman serving onboard would be 75 years old today, so I have no idea who could possibly have a fresh memory of her.

There never was any "bad" memory of this transfer by the Navy. I joined in 1975 and never did I hear anyone bemoan the fact that we "got rid of LABRADOR". She did her few patrols - mostly helped with the original DEW line radar sites construction, and was quietly turned over to the CG near the height of the RCN post war fleet build up, not as a cost cutting measure, but because it was quickly found she served no real defence purpose.

The Labrador gave the RCN a capability way back in the 50's that we never regained. Many people today call for "armed icebreakers" to built rather than the AOPS. It was a crying shame that the RCN gave her up and many at the time didn't agree with it due to the cold war. Many of the charts we still use today were based on hydrographic work conducted in Labrador while in the RCN.  I had a opportunity to talk with the MARLANT Commander only recently and we drew many comparisions with Labrador and Harry DeWolf. AOPS will give the RCN some of the similar capability that we lost when Labrador was transferred.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 17:02:09 by Chief Stoker »
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #668 on: February 18, 2015, 15:39:47 »
It's fitted for a payload. Modularized packages that carry everything from ESSMs to Harpoons are readily available for purchase off the shelf (the sort the Danish Flyvefisken-class OPVs use). If and when we decide we need them.

Eggzackly - The Danish Stanflex System - http://www.seaforces.org/wpnsys/SURFACE/STANFLEX-modules.htm



The squarish bucket below holds all the mechanical and electrical systems and drops into the hole.  The stuff on top sticks out on top of the deck and does the work.

And the Red River Rebellion of 1869/70 came about three years prior to the formation of the NWMP. As it's off the topic of this thread, I'm going to invite you not to try to convince me the two were completely unrelated. I concede that the NWMP subsequently did lots of customs enforcement, but that's not why they were given cannons.

WRT NWMP 9 Pdrs - This is why they took 2x 9 Pdrs and 2x Brass Mortars.




The Whisky Traders at Whoop Up were a bit more than a Customs and Excise problem.

No doubt Louis Riel, and the Fenians, and the Blackfoot, and Sitting Bull and the US Army played into the decisions in terms of arming the 300.  But even the "the non-state actors" of the day presented a significant problem.  (Actually, come to think of it the only State Actors in the picture were the US Army and they were likely the least of the problems).

Here's how the locals rationalize the raising of the NWMP.

http://nwmp.wikispaces.com/1870+-+Danger+in+the+West

And THIS one
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Offline Old Sweat

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #669 on: February 18, 2015, 15:47:31 »
Mods, we might e creating another thread here.

Actually the NWMP took 2 7-pdrs that had been used by the artillery detachment in the Red River garrison established after the Red River expedition. Strange as it seems, the Liberals, who had replaced the Conservatives because of the Pacific Scandal, did not want to form the force because of the costs. Instead, according to a report by the Governor General to the Colonial Office (which I have read,) Prime Minister Mackenzie wanted to ask the US Army to pacify the Canadian West. The GG was not impressed.

What this has to do with AOPS beats me, but somebody might be able to connect the dots.

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #670 on: February 18, 2015, 15:50:55 »
Thank you for making me feel old.



Don't feel old! I'm "just a young'un" and I almost cried when I read that  first post ;D
Sometimes you just gotta put your head down and keep pushing.  :tank2:


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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #671 on: February 18, 2015, 16:00:40 »
Mods, we might e creating another thread here.

Actually the NWMP took 2 7-pdrs that had been used by the artillery detachment in the Red River garrison established after the Red River expedition. Strange as it seems, the Liberals, who had replaced the Conservatives because of the Pacific Scandal, did not want to form the force because of the costs. Instead, according to a report by the Governor General to the Colonial Office (which I have read,) Prime Minister Mackenzie wanted to ask the US Army to pacify the Canadian West. The GG was not impressed.

What this has to do with AOPS beats me, but somebody might be able to connect the dots.

Gilbert and Sullivan to the Rescue

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpVbBH9Ip8I

Constabulary work donchano?  ;D

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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #672 on: February 18, 2015, 16:01:32 »
Gilbert and Sullivan to the Rescue

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpVbBH9Ip8I

Constabulary work donchano?  ;D

Maybe that will make Goose15 happier.
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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #673 on: February 18, 2015, 17:42:32 »
As it's off the topic of this thread, I'm going to invite you not to try to convince me the two were completely unrelated.

No worries, I won't try to convince you as you have your own opinions and theories. 

Kirkhill does have some nice photos of Ft Whoop-Up posted which was at present day Lethbridge, AB, 50 km east of where I grew up and where the NWMP started to really operate from.  When they arrived in force at the fort they found it to be very recently abandoned by the Whiskey Traders who had fled in advance of first contact.  And I'll leave it at that.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #674 on: February 18, 2015, 18:00:47 »
and the Cougars would never deploy.....

These ships need to be built with enough hardpoints to be able to mount enough armaments and counter measures to be effective. Any gun is better than no gun, but chances are that this type of ships may very well be involved in some heavy diplomacy by itself, far from support and it will be a close in shoving match and the meanest looking ship is going to win, even if not a shot is fired. The problem with a missile is it does not lend itself well to warning shots. Frankly a 57mm and some missiles along with counter measures is the way to go. Possibly in their life time they will also mount small defensive lasers. Walking softly while carrying a big enough stick often solve problems before they get out of hand.

Plus the people who don't like you, consider any of your naval vessels a warship and will treat it as such. Regardless of what you think or say you are doing.

I also think every CCG large vessel need integrated hardpoints in the design with supporting comms, electrical services fitted. I would like to see a war stock of naval weapons stored that can be fitted on short notice to the above mentioned hardpoints and ships and crews cycled throuhg