Author Topic: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS  (Read 494238 times)

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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #750 on: June 29, 2015, 18:46:51 »
Lalalalalala can't hear you.  Ignore evidence...national myth.  Nothing to see here folks, move along.... :salute: ;D

At the risk of a tangent, another great Canadian victory with a strong role played by a British chap:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Byng,_1st_Viscount_Byng_of_Vimy  ;D :highjack:
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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #751 on: June 29, 2015, 18:56:52 »
At the risk of a tangent, another great Canadian victory with a strong role played by a British chap:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Byng,_1st_Viscount_Byng_of_Vimy  ;D :highjack:

Talking about his little contretemps with the Prime Minister?
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #752 on: July 05, 2015, 14:11:56 »
Found a neat little graphic on the deWolfs created by the infomachine at this link:

http://www.navy-marine.forces.gc.ca/assets/NAVY_Internet/docs/en/aops-factsheet.pdf

Perhaps somebody can paste the actual image to the site.  It is beyond my ken.  Figured it out.

« Last Edit: July 05, 2015, 15:44:40 by Kirkhill »
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Offline Underway

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #753 on: July 05, 2015, 20:01:30 »
I have that printed out and on the office bulletin board.  6440 tonnes is heavier than other publications, but I suppose we won't fully know until the first ship is completed.

Its role is nicely summarized in the fact sheet.  Armed sea-borne surveillance, support to OGD's.  She's a mobile base not a proper warship.

It's said that the Inuit see no difference between the ice and the land.  It seems like the A/OPS is taking its cue from them with all that shore deployable gear.  Now we just need to get that 25mm on the MCDV's to replace the Bofors.....  I also heard that the other side of the ship will have a davit for a covered landing craft.  I also don't understand why the crew compliment is so large.  It shouldn't need more than 40 pers, same as an MCDV to operate.

Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #754 on: July 05, 2015, 22:10:11 »
I have that printed out and on the office bulletin board.  6440 tonnes is heavier than other publications, but I suppose we won't fully know until the first ship is completed.

Its role is nicely summarized in the fact sheet.  Armed sea-borne surveillance, support to OGD's.  She's a mobile base not a proper warship.

It's said that the Inuit see no difference between the ice and the land.  It seems like the A/OPS is taking its cue from them with all that shore deployable gear.  Now we just need to get that 25mm on the MCDV's to replace the Bofors.....  I also heard that the other side of the ship will have a davit for a covered landing craft.  I also don't understand why the crew compliment is so large.  It shouldn't need more than 40 pers, same as an MCDV to operate.

The crewing mimics most larger warships with a EO, baby EO, log O and so forth. I believe 12 officers alone. The Engineering section is 22 pers, so quite a bit different than a MCDV.
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #755 on: July 05, 2015, 22:40:14 »
Chief Stoker has it right. The extra personnel is mostly in the engineering side as the type of deployment expected from the AOPS means they have to be more self reliant when fixing problems is required than for an MCDV, which is supported by civilian contractors out of Halifax or Esquimalt dockyards for second and third tier engineering support.

For instance, considering their size and the environment they are getting into, I expect the AOPS to carry a certain number of hull techs, The MCDV's don't. Similarily, they have to provide their own logistical support at greater distances for a more complex vessel, so it is logical to carry a Log O and a few supply techs. Finally, in view of the longer duration of deployments than the ones you see in MCDV's and the "individual" deployment of the AOPS vice the MCDV's, I expect a few extra seaman and so forth in order to keep a reasonable harbour/at anchor watch keeping schedule, since you cannot spread them between a number of ships operating together.

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #756 on: July 06, 2015, 06:37:39 »
The crewing mimics most larger warships with a EO, baby EO, log O and so forth. I believe 12 officers alone. The Engineering section is 22 pers, so quite a bit different than a MCDV.

Yes, as I understand the initial thought was for a P2 and LS HT.  This has now been revised to be more or less what is carried on a CPF if I have heard correctly.  While there is going to provisions for Irving to do the maintenance alongside as part of the package they will still need people to fix things while they're away from home port.

Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #757 on: July 06, 2015, 07:38:14 »
Yes, as I understand the initial thought was for a P2 and LS HT.  This has now been revised to be more or less what is carried on a CPF if I have heard correctly.  While there is going to provisions for Irving to do the maintenance alongside as part of the package they will still need people to fix things while they're away from home port.

Considering what could go wrong in the Arctic, there is great need for the 6 hull techs that the AOPS has listed for their manning. I would imagine along with well equipped workshops on the the AOPS, there will be contractors possibly flying into Nanisivik eventually to work on the ship. I also want to point out the provision on the manning for a MET TECH, a senior steward, Chief Clerk and 3 cooks. From the manning some trades are going to be working bodies again, not supervisors much like a MCDV. The manning also doesn't take into account training bunks eiher or how many reserves that will be employed on them. I would imagine though that the manning will be adjusted over time as well.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 08:33:26 by Chief Stoker »
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #758 on: July 06, 2015, 07:49:21 »
Considering what could go wrong in the Arctic, there is great need for the 6 hull techs that the AOPS has listed for their manning. I would imagine along with well equipped workshops on the the AOPS, there will be contractors possibly flying into Nanisivik eventually to work on the ship. I also want to point out the provision on the manning for a MET TECH, a senior steward, Chief Clerk and 3 cooks. From the manning some trades are going to be working bodies again, not supervisors much like a MCDV. The manning also doesn't take into account training bunks eiher or how many reserves that will be employed on them.


And, yet, it was an lightly (dare I say "inadequately?") crewed MCDV that made it to 80o28' N, not a larger warship. (In fairness, I believe the FFHs are even less "ice capable" than the MMs.) I can imagine that the Captain and the Chief Engineer had pretty tight sphincter muscles the whole way, imagining what could go wrong, but ...
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Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #759 on: July 06, 2015, 07:57:37 »

And, yet, it was an lightly (dare I say "inadequately?") crewed MCDV that made it to 80o28' N, not a larger warship. (In fairness, I believe the FFHs are even less "ice capable" than the MMs.) I can imagine that the Captain and the Chief Engineer had pretty tight sphincter muscles the whole way, imagining what could go wrong, but ...

True it was as I was the Chief Engineer. I was more concerned when the CO went into the ocean at 80 for the ice bucket challenge though :nod:
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #760 on: July 06, 2015, 09:27:51 »
I always thought they sent the wrong MCDV for that one. The honour obviously should have been kept for HMCS GLACE BAY  ;D.

Also, they were up in Kane Basin at the top of Baffin Bay, an area that now clears of ice at the end of the summer/beginning of fall up to somewhere between 81 and 82 degrees North. Still lots of dangerous things floating in the area, but not "in" ice. The AOPS will actually be going into the ice and staying up there longer than the MCDV's or FFH.

Nevertheless, SHAWINIGAN  :salute:

Offline Colin P

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #761 on: July 06, 2015, 11:13:57 »
I suspect the first few trips into the ice will be in the company of a CCG Ice Breaker

Offline Underway

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #762 on: July 06, 2015, 14:16:33 »
I suspect the first few trips into the ice will be in the company of a CCG Ice Breaker

Probably not wrong on that, also there might be a need for them in the Gulf of St. Laurence during sealing season.  Actually the Gulf up to Quebec city could be a good shakeout ice testing ground.  It's first year ice, and you're close to home with lots of help in case something goes wrong.

Considering what could go wrong in the Arctic, there is great need for the 6 hull techs that the AOPS has listed for their manning. I would imagine along with well equipped workshops on the the AOPS, there will be contractors possibly flying into Nanisivik eventually to work on the ship. I also want to point out the provision on the manning for a MET TECH, a senior steward, Chief Clerk and 3 cooks. From the manning some trades are going to be working bodies again, not supervisors much like a MCDV. The manning also doesn't take into account training bunks eiher or how many reserves that will be employed on them. I would imagine though that the manning will be adjusted over time as well.

Whats the CSE complement?  Same as MCDV with one WEng Tech or more robust?


And, yet, it was an lightly (dare I say "inadequately?") crewed MCDV that made it to 80o28' N, not a larger warship. (In fairness, I believe the FFHs are even less "ice capable" than the MMs.) I can imagine that the Captain and the Chief Engineer had pretty tight sphincter muscles the whole way, imagining what could go wrong, but ...

Interestingly enough FFH's have an Arctic Class  that is type E vs MCDV's which are type D.  Arctic Class is a classification system that is primarily based on Arctic Shipping Pollution Prevention Regulations and include Ice Strengthening requirements, special bunkering, upper deck fittings, fire mains, exhaust, propulsion, etc....  Type A would be thick first year ice and Type E would be no ice at all.
I've seen photos of MCDV's breaking through 2"-3" estuary ice on the West Coast in late fall.

Polar Class is based almost entirely on an ability to negotiate ice, and the classification system goes much higher than thick first year ice...

Offline Colin P

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #763 on: July 06, 2015, 14:32:03 »
Long time since I read up on it, but ice classification is different for river and ocean as well. River icebreakers were traditionally built with longitudinal strength in mind and ocean for lateral strength to resist being crushed by ice movement.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #764 on: July 06, 2015, 14:52:21 »
Where on god's green earth was that??? I have never seen ice on the West Coast of Canada, not even on the coldest winter day.

In any event  two to three inches of just formed ice is nothing and I would expect any ship to go through that, FFH included.

Now six to 8 inches in Bedford basin in Halifax, that used to prevent any of the DDH's or DDE's from being able to go to the ammo jetty, and if absolutely necessary, then they would call on the Gate Vessels to open the way (The GV's were rated for up to two feet of ice - the last armoured hulls in the Navy).

I remember one week in February, circa 1988-89, we took the two GV out for a week and, on the last Friday evening, pulled into Shelburne for a one day visit. Temperature turned very cold, wind came in from the sea and on Saturday afternoon the whole bay was in six inches of ice and all the local fisherman, with their wooden boats, were trapped. In mid afternoon, we started our engines, and I guess the word spread around quickly because all the fishing crew came running down to their boats, and as we left, they all followed tucked in our wake, where we had basically cleared the ice. The buffer asked me if he should acquire some bright red paint for the hull.  ;D
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 15:13:28 by Oldgateboatdriver »

Offline Colin P

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #765 on: July 06, 2015, 15:05:52 »
The Camsull got sliced in the Western Arctic. We do get the occasional ice on the Fraser and in small harbours where a layer of fresh water is on top of the salt. That thin layer of ice can be deadly to wooden recreational craft as it can saw through the hull in a night. We had a bright spark in a Avon Sea Rider attempt to break that type of ice....... ::) He spent a good chunk of the patrol repairing the tubes.

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #766 on: July 06, 2015, 15:13:32 »
Where on god's green earth was that??? I have never seen ice on the West Coast of Canada, not even on the coldest winter day.

It was a trip up to Anchorage Alaska.  I'm not sure if it was Queen Charlottes or they were in Alaska by then as it was years ago, so perhaps not in Canada at all!  Essentially the fresh water from the river froze over top of the salt oceanic water.  Fresh water ice is also more brittle than sea ice so aside from a bit of a crunching noise it was no issue, even for ice getting into intakes.  It made for some beautiful pictures in a unique circumstance.

Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #767 on: July 06, 2015, 15:15:31 »
Probably not wrong on that, also there might be a need for them in the Gulf of St. Laurence during sealing season.  Actually the Gulf up to Quebec city could be a good shakeout ice testing ground.  It's first year ice, and you're close to home with lots of help in case something goes wrong.

Whats the CSE complement?  Same as MCDV with one WEng Tech or more robust?
Interestingly enough FFH's have an Arctic Class  that is type E vs MCDV's which are type D.  Arctic Class is a classification system that is primarily based on Arctic Shipping Pollution Prevention Regulations and include Ice Strengthening requirements, special bunkering, upper deck fittings, fire mains, exhaust, propulsion, etc....  Type A would be thick first year ice and Type E would be no ice at all.
I've seen photos of MCDV's breaking through 2"-3" estuary ice on the West Coast in late fall.

Polar Class is based almost entirely on an ability to negotiate ice, and the classification system goes much higher than thick first year ice...


Five WENGS for AOPS.  I have broken some ice in a MCDV, however very unnerving knowing the ships capabilities. I would imagine the first deployment for AOPS will try and do a transit of the Passage much like HMCS Labrador did.
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #768 on: July 06, 2015, 15:17:51 »
In the Western Arctic, fine. I don't consider that the West Coast of Canada even if Canadian ships deploying there come from the West Coast.

Similarly, icing in bays/estuaries in Alaska, starting about 60-70 NM North of Ketchikan, is frequent in winter. But I don't consider that the West Coast of Canada.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #769 on: July 06, 2015, 15:21:14 »
Are they serious Chief? Five WEng for a single 25 mm main gun and two .50 cal's? Or are they expecting to carry torps at all times or add a CWIS on top of the hangar?

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #770 on: July 06, 2015, 15:30:29 »
Are they serious Chief? Five WEng for a single 25 mm main gun and two .50 cal's? Or are they expecting to carry torps at all times or add a CWIS on top of the hangar?

That's straight from the AOPS presentation I have. There are a lot of electronics on the ship and I would imagine quite a bit of first line maintenance will need to be done.
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #771 on: July 06, 2015, 15:39:45 »
Is there that much more electronics than on the MCDV's?

They have the same number and general class of radars as MCDV's, I suspect there may be some redundancies on the radios side, but still not that much more than what is found on the MCDV's. Probably about the same amount of navigation electronics. Perhaps a few more "ops" consoles and an electro-optical system of sorts, but that is about it. I could be wrong, but I get a feeling they will end up doing a lot more seamanship than practicing their trade.  :nod:

Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #772 on: July 06, 2015, 15:47:57 »
Is there that much more electronics than on the MCDV's?

They have the same number and general class of radars as MCDV's, I suspect there may be some redundancies on the radios side, but still not that much more than what is found on the MCDV's. Probably about the same amount of navigation electronics. Perhaps a few more "ops" consoles and an electro-optical system of sorts, but that is about it. I could be wrong, but I get a feeling they will end up doing a lot more seamanship than practicing their trade.  :nod:

There is a lot and like you mentioned redundancies for the radios and so forth. There is lots more ops consoles in a proper ops room and also all the bridge equipment as well. I would imagine several of WENGS to look after the gun and most likely one of them will be the Mag Yeoman as well. You also must keep in mind that these numbers may change as time goes on.
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

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Offline IN ARDUA NITOR

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #773 on: July 06, 2015, 15:51:59 »
Taken in April 2009 in Tracy Arm, AK. The Sawyer Glacier is pictured, which, for the sake of interest originates in Canada.

It was all first year ice - varying from slush at the start to 4-6" elsewhere.






Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #774 on: July 06, 2015, 16:13:32 »
Any chance they could make like the Norwegians and split that crew of 65 into 3 divisions?  Only two divisions are on board at any one time.  The divisions rotate in and out for long patrols.
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