Author Topic: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS  (Read 494065 times)

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Offline Colin P

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #725 on: May 25, 2015, 16:04:35 »
Ask the British about lessons learned on electrical systems? Are you mad? Have you never heard of Lucas?  :o

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #726 on: May 25, 2015, 16:12:24 »
Ahh,  Aaahh,  Aaaahh, Chicoutimi...... Excuse me for sneezing.
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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #727 on: May 25, 2015, 21:57:45 »
Third AOPS named today in Esquimalt, named after Chief Petty Officer Max Bernays. I do believe there is a Accommodations block named after him out there as well.

http://www.navalandmilitarymuseum.org/archives/articles/local-heroes/chief-petty-officer-max-bernays

You are quite correct.  There is a block named after him there.  He's perhaps the best choice of name yet.

Prince of Darkness aside  >:D

According to Wiki this is the 45 setup

What I take from that is that it is a Gas Turbine Ship with Electric Drive (2x 21.5 MW  (43 MW) driving 2x 20 MW (40 MW) motors) with 4 MW of Gensets that could be used to feed the motors but likely are just going to drive sensors, weapons and ship and hotel loads. 

Your power options would be:

1 Motor at 10% of capacity with one Diesel Genset
1 Motor at 20% of capacity with two Diesel Gensets
2 Motors at 10% of capacity with two Diesel Gensets
2 Motors at 50% of capacity with one Turbine
2 Motors at 100% of capacity with two Turbines

I don't know anything about the gas turbines and their cooling requirements but I would imagine a lot of the heat would go up the stack with the flue gases.

A different strategy than the AOPS seems to have adopted with the all diesel solution.

There's quite a good video on the making of the type 45 out there and it shows the GTs in action.  It's basically as you say.  The GTs kick in when you really need the power. 

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #728 on: May 25, 2015, 22:41:14 »
You are quite correct.  There is a block named after him there.  He's perhaps the best choice of name yet.

Wow, what a bio.  Never read about him before.  Great name.   :salute:
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Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #729 on: May 25, 2015, 22:49:49 »
Some scuttlebut from the water cooler...

They are working on a Tele-Hospital/Doc system.  The goal is for the A/OPS to have the a fairly robust med capability apparently.  When asked why the response was "Cause they're in the friggin arctic!" (yes I asked that obvious questions... and I got the correct you're a "moron" response).

A/OPS will have an electric propulsion system with electric motors supplied by a number of DA's (Integrated Electric Propulsion if I understood him correctly).  The electrical power avail will be orders of magnitude greater than anything else the navy has worked with and they are currently working on the training systems to ensure the Engineers are prepared to deal with thousands of Amps.  It leads me to wonder if IEP is the frontrunner of CSC.

The training development and procurement side is working hard to get simulators, equipment and procedures in place for all the anticipated A/OPS needs so the first crews will at least have some dry land training before getting out on the real thing.

Essentially what we are building is a 6000 ton, ice capable, mobile base by the sounds of things (lillypads +?).  Which is a little different than many in public were expecting or anticipating, and certainly different than what was expected in many quarters.


AOPS will have 4 x 3600 kW DGs, 2 x 4.5 MW GE Propulsion Motors 1 x 1360 kW DG (Harbour/Emerg). Range will be in excess of 6800NM @14 Kts. As more DG's are brought online the faster the ship will go, much the same as KINGSTON Class.
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #730 on: June 01, 2015, 16:33:52 »

Quote from: Kirkhill on May 25, 2015, 16:22:55
Prince of Darkness aside  >:D

According to Wiki this is the 45 setup

What I take from that is that it is a Gas Turbine Ship with Electric Drive (2x 21.5 MW  (43 MW) driving 2x 20 MW (40 MW) motors) with 4 MW of Gensets that could be used to feed the motors but likely are just going to drive sensors, weapons and ship and hotel loads. 

Your power options would be:

1 Motor at 10% of capacity with one Diesel Genset
1 Motor at 20% of capacity with two Diesel Gensets
2 Motors at 10% of capacity with two Diesel Gensets
2 Motors at 50% of capacity with one Turbine
2 Motors at 100% of capacity with two Turbines

I don't know anything about the gas turbines and their cooling requirements but I would imagine a lot of the heat would go up the stack with the flue gases.

A different strategy than the AOPS seems to have adopted with the all diesel solution.

There's quite a good video on the making of the type 45 out there and it shows the GTs in action.  It's basically as you say.  The GTs kick in when you really need the power.

That is not the way the T45's work.

The GT's are for propulsion, the DG's for shipboard service.

Because it is an integrated electrical system, all power from any source is "dumped" on a "bus" from which everyone draws power. So, in theory, any one of the power sources can provide power to any drawing "client" for that power.

In practice, however, the DG's, even both together, would only let you drag your arse at about 4 knots once the systems and hotel load are taken out. They are an ultimate backup to the GT's, but the are there primarily to provide the ship's service load in harbour or at anchor.

Standard at sea operations is one GT, providing enough power to get up to about 18-19 knots, and one DG providing for the shipboard load (so as to not take GT power away from propulsion) with the second GT kicking in for higher speeds. The second DG is there as the emergency back up for the first DG and to provide for alternating between the two of them.

Having four DG in the AOPS, instead of two DG and two GT, is not a different strategy. Using diesels vs gas turbines is not a "strategy", it's a matter of power. The strategy is having an integrated electrical propulsion system, and it is the same in both cases.

BTW using electric motors on the AOPS for propulsion is in no way indicative of what will be in the CSC's. Using electrical motors on ice capable ships, and particularly ice breakers, is a job requirement: Think about your little 1.5 volt hand held plastic fan. If you stick your hand in it, you'll stop the rotation - remove your finger and it works as if nothing happened. If it was an internal combustion engine spinning it, you would lose your finger. It's the same for operating in ice: If you go over a large ice chunk with the screws of an electric motor ship, the screws will "give" and the electric motors will suddenly draw with greater resistance (causing shipboard brown outs), but it will not break anything and once the ice clears, all will be back to normal. With standard propulsion, something has to give and it won't be the ice. So you will either break/twist a screw or strip gears in the gearbox or worse blow you engine's gasket. 

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #731 on: June 01, 2015, 19:13:32 »
Type 45s are electric drive with generator power coming from an assortment of engines including gas turbines. Gas turbines provide immediate high power which a diesel can't maintain when the ship increases speed rapidly above intermediate power levels or at high speed. As for slippage-could be wrong but I don't think so.
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The latest ....
« Reply #732 on: June 23, 2015, 16:18:58 »
.... via the RCN Info-machine:
Quote
Building of a test module for the first Arctic Offshore Patrol Ship (AOPS) is underway. The Honourable Diane Finley, Minister of Public Works and Government Services, pressed the button that began construction for the Harry DeWolf Class test module at the newest Irving Shipbuilding Inc. facility in Dartmouth on June 18, 2015.

Building this test module will enable the shipyard to test its new processes, get personnel familiar with the new equipment, and streamline construction for when full production begins in the fall of 2015.

Army veteran Peter Douglas, spry at 95 years old, was a guest at the ceremony. Prior to serving as a mechanical engineer with the Queen’s Own Rifles during the Second World War, Mr. Douglas worked in Halifax at the shipyard as a foundry pattern maker. After the ceremony, Rear-Admiral Ron Lloyd, Deputy Commander Royal Canadian Navy, enjoyed a conversation with the veteran.
Also attached if link doesn't work for you - sounds like more tomorrow.
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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #733 on: June 23, 2015, 17:09:27 »
Type 45s are electric drive with generator power coming from an assortment of engines including gas turbines. Gas turbines provide immediate high power which a diesel can't maintain when the ship increases speed rapidly above intermediate power levels or at high speed. As for slippage-could be wrong but I don't think so.

Aside from the acceleration/decceleration, GTs also have a much higher power to weight ratio, even if you include all the trunking.

With something like the AOPS, extra weight and quick speed changes don't matter, so diesels are great, and use much less fuel, so you get better range.  It also gives you a lot more redundancy in prime movers, which is nice when you could be stranded in the middle of an iceflow, and you can divert a lot of it for other things with step down transformers if required.

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #734 on: June 23, 2015, 21:58:49 »
With something like the AOPS, extra weight and quick speed changes don't matter, so diesels are great, and use much less fuel, so you get better range.  It also gives you a lot more redundancy in prime movers, which is nice when you could be stranded in the middle of an iceflow, and you can divert a lot of it for other things with step down transformers if required.

So long as you don't short out your marinized flux capacitor.   ;D

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New naval ship to be named for Hall
« Reply #735 on: June 26, 2015, 21:47:26 »
New naval ship to be named for Hall

http://thechronicleherald.ca/metro/1295674-new-naval-ship-to-be-named-for-hall

Quote
As a young boy, Phillip Safire heard many stories about the heroics of William Hall.

“Growing up, we heard lots and lots of stories, my brother and I, and my cousins. This was just our aunts and uncles and grandparents talking, but I never learned about it in school,” said Safire, a sergeant in the Canadian Forces.

Safire was among about a dozen of Hall’s descendants, who attended at an event in Halifax Friday announcing that a new Royal Canadian naval ship will be named after Hall, the first black man and first Nova Scotian to be awarded the Victoria Cross.

One of Canada’s six new Arctic offshore patrol ships will bear Hall’s name, Julian Fantino, associate minister of National Defence told a crowd at Africville Park.

Safire said he hopes the move will inspire more Canadians to learn of Hall’s story, as well as stories of other Canadian heroes who were not in school textbooks.

“I hope this is a start of more people learning about other members of other groups and their contributions so they can be proud,” Safire said in an interview.

“Canadian history is made up of a lot of different groups. …Recognizing a part of that history that is not well known is a great day.”

Hall was born in Horton Bluff, near Hantsport, in April 1827. An able seaman in the Royal Navy, Hall fought in some of “history’s most intense naval battles,” Fantino told the crowd.

He is honoured for his actions at Lucknow, India, in 1857. Hall was serving on the frigate HMS Shannon, and was part of a relief force sent to Calcutta, British India, to relieve a garrison under attack.

Hall volunteered for a position on one of two gun crews ordered to break through the walls of the Shah Najaf mosque where the rebel army was positioned.

“Guns from his ship were brought inland almost 1,000 kilometres from Calcutta, where the Shannon was docked in an attempt to breach the rebel fort. Their barrage was met with an intense onslaught of grenades, which killed almost everyone but Hall and his fellow sailor, Lieutenant Thomas James Young,” Fantino said.

“Together, they fired the last cannon shot— shot within 20 yards— a shot that ultimately penetrated the fortress,” he said.

Rear Admiral John Newton, commander of Maritime Forces Atlantic, told the crowd that even as naval officer he had never heard about Hall or his heroic deeds.

“In time, I learned of William Hall, encouraged by a slowly changing attitude of society and the hard, hard, work of the black Nova Scotian community,” he said.

Sharon Rivest said the naming of the ship after her great great-uncle is both “healing and overwhelming.”

“I’m just thankful that he will not just go and disappear in history,” said Rivest, who travelled from her home in Quebec for the announcement.

“Every time someone steps on the ship, they are going to ask what the story is. That’s all we want,” she said.

Dorothy Brown, another family member, lives in Lockhartville, not far from where William Hall lived.

“The old house (where he lived) is still standing, but it has been remodelled, of course,” she said.

The ships, to be built by Irving Shipyard, are being named in honour of Canadian heroes who served in the Royal Canadian Navy. The lead ship has been named HMCS Harry DeWolf, and the class is known at the Harry DeWolf class.

DeWolf was the captain of HMCS Haida, and was decorated for service throughout his naval career. The second ship was named for Margaret Brooke, an RCN nursing sister, lauded for her actions during the Second World War. The third was named for Max Bernays, another naval hero, who served as a coxswain on HMCS Assiniboine during the Battle of the Atlantic, a federal release said.
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Offline Underway

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #736 on: June 26, 2015, 21:55:09 »
I knew it.  My Admin O owes me a beer in the mess.  Here's to Hall,  provider of beer and THE inspiration for the Naval Gun run in Canada!  An excellent pick and the first Canadian sailor to win the VC.  They are really doing a solid job with the ship names for the class.

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #737 on: June 26, 2015, 22:12:59 »
They are really doing a solid job with the ship names for the class.

Except that it's a complete break with Canadian tradition to name RCN vessels after people.
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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #738 on: June 26, 2015, 22:20:14 »
Except that it's a complete break with Canadian tradition to name RCN vessels after people.

Yes it is, and yes it's true.  But, they're not naming them after asshats but truly inspirational people.  And at least they've got Naval connections unlike the new JSS names...
« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 07:35:43 by jollyjacktar »

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #739 on: June 26, 2015, 22:20:52 »
Except that it's a complete break with Canadian tradition to name RCN vessels after people.

Is it really tradition though? Vessels in the RCN fleet vary in name from cities, to bodies of water and landmarks, to animals and First Nations tribes. I think we have not broken tradition, but rather our tradition is evolving by honouring important Canadian icons, regardless of whether they're a person or not.
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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #740 on: June 26, 2015, 22:52:03 »
 :goodpost:

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #741 on: June 27, 2015, 09:00:57 »
While there may have been some traditional ways of naming ships int he RCN, some adopted or taken straight out of the British Admiralty books, there are no such things as Rules to be Followed for Ship's Naming.

Normally, the Naval Board has a sub-committee which proposes the naming rule for a given class, and then comes up with recommendations for names. What galls me though, is that the more recent names chosen, including their grand standing political presentation by politicians, are exactly that: Politically interfered with or even handed down from the politicians for the purpose of scoring political points.

This by no way diminishes the value of the heroics of the individuals so honoured.

Take Mr. Hall for instance. Clearly the government has selected him for the purpose of appearing to be inclusive of minorities. Don't get me wrong: He has fully deserved his VC and his conduct is worth proclaiming. But can he be said to be a Canadian hero in any sense of the word?

At the time of his birth, he was a British subject born in the Nova Scotia colony of England, not a self ruling or  "Canadian" land at all. If Canada existed at the time, it was either Lower Canada (now Quebec) and Upper canada (now Ontario), who where in the trows of their rebellion to get responsible government. They sort of got it a few years latter in 1841, through Union, which created "Canada" for the first time, but made up of the old Lower and Upper Canada only. Nova Scotia did not become "Canada" before 1867, which is well after the time Mr. Hall earned his VC. I submit he cannot be considered a Canadian in any sense of the term.

Moreover, He never served in Canada's Navy, which would not come into being before 1910 - or even in the "fisheries" department ships of the Dominion that preceded that, but with the Royal Navy. He is a British sailor, not Canadian.

Finally, his deed that obtained him the VC has nothing to do with Canada, not even indirectly by protecting Canada as a colony from external danger directed at it, but rather purely in a internal colonial matter of the British empire in putting down an internal revolt in one of its overseas territory. He may have been a hero of the British empire, but not of Canada, and I have no doubt that this is how it was presented and celebrated at the time in Nova Scotia.

Again, don't get me wrong, His own personal deeds were heroic and deserving of  recognition in and of themselves, but it is stretching it to call him a Canadian hero IMHO.

This said, if in 2015 creating the appearance of society inclusive of visible minorities is important to the Canadian government, then Mr. Hall is deserving of this honour. I am sure, however, that his descendants will agree that "Canadian" and British society of the mid 1800's was anything but inclusive and one might wonder at how inclusive we have been in the mean time since, apparently, a visible minority true Canadian naval hero could not be found between then and now.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 09:18:39 by Oldgateboatdriver »

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #742 on: June 27, 2015, 16:09:58 »
While there may have been some traditional ways of naming ships int he RCN, some adopted or taken straight out of the British Admiralty books, there are no such things as Rules to be Followed for Ship's Naming.

Normally, the Naval Board has a sub-committee which proposes the naming rule for a given class, and then comes up with recommendations for names. What galls me though, is that the more recent names chosen, including their grand standing political presentation by politicians, are exactly that: Politically interfered with or even handed down from the politicians for the purpose of scoring political points.

This by no way diminishes the value of the heroics of the individuals so honoured.

Take Mr. Hall for instance. Clearly the government has selected him for the purpose of appearing to be inclusive of minorities. Don't get me wrong: He has fully deserved his VC and his conduct is worth proclaiming. But can he be said to be a Canadian hero in any sense of the word?

At the time of his birth, he was a British subject born in the Nova Scotia colony of England, not a self ruling or  "Canadian" land at all. If Canada existed at the time, it was either Lower Canada (now Quebec) and Upper canada (now Ontario), who where in the trows of their rebellion to get responsible government. They sort of got it a few years latter in 1841, through Union, which created "Canada" for the first time, but made up of the old Lower and Upper Canada only. Nova Scotia did not become "Canada" before 1867, which is well after the time Mr. Hall earned his VC. I submit he cannot be considered a Canadian in any sense of the term.

Moreover, He never served in Canada's Navy, which would not come into being before 1910 - or even in the "fisheries" department ships of the Dominion that preceded that, but with the Royal Navy. He is a British sailor, not Canadian.

Finally, his deed that obtained him the VC has nothing to do with Canada, not even indirectly by protecting Canada as a colony from external danger directed at it, but rather purely in a internal colonial matter of the British empire in putting down an internal revolt in one of its overseas territory. He may have been a hero of the British empire, but not of Canada, and I have no doubt that this is how it was presented and celebrated at the time in Nova Scotia.

Again, don't get me wrong, His own personal deeds were heroic and deserving of  recognition in and of themselves, but it is stretching it to call him a Canadian hero IMHO.

This said, if in 2015 creating the appearance of society inclusive of visible minorities is important to the Canadian government, then Mr. Hall is deserving of this honour. I am sure, however, that his descendants will agree that "Canadian" and British society of the mid 1800's was anything but inclusive and one might wonder at how inclusive we have been in the mean time since, apparently, a visible minority true Canadian naval hero could not be found between then and now.

He was a Canadian when he died and that's good enough for me. A interesting note that he also served in the US Navy for 2 years on the USS Ohio.
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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #743 on: June 27, 2015, 17:18:57 »
 :goodpost:

He arrived and departed this mortal coil a Nova Scotian.  We all were until the 1970's, British Subjects, for that matter.  So what of it?
« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 18:56:02 by jollyjacktar »

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #744 on: June 27, 2015, 18:43:30 »
We have so few national myths, Hall is one of them.  We've adopted him long before this naming.  The gun run used him as an example and told his legend while the sailors set up for their demonstration.  Next you're gonna try and tell us that Canadians didn't burn down the Whitehouse, and then go into a dissertation on the militia myth.

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #745 on: June 27, 2015, 19:23:44 »
:goodpost:

He arrived and departed this mortal coil a Nova Scotian.  We all were until the 1970's, British Subjects, for that matter.  So what of it?

He was also a fellow C&PO. good enough for me.
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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #746 on: June 27, 2015, 19:35:23 »
 :nod:  Agreed.

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #747 on: June 27, 2015, 20:33:31 »
Next you're gonna try and tell us that Canadians didn't burn down the Whitehouse

Even though I can smell the dripping sarcasm, in clarification, We didn't. British regular troops led by Gen. Robert Ross shipped from Spain after the victory in the Peninsular Campaign took an essentially deserted Washington after routing American troops at the Battle of Bladensburg.

However it still pisses the local off when you remind them of that fact. >:D
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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #748 on: June 27, 2015, 21:59:59 »
We didn't. British regular troops led by Gen. Robert Ross shipped from Spain after the victory in the Peninsular Campaign took an essentially deserted Washington after routing American troops at the Battle of Bladensburg.

Lalalalalala can't hear you.  Ignore evidence...national myth.  Nothing to see here folks, move along.... :salute: ;D

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #749 on: June 27, 2015, 22:48:23 »
However it still pisses the local off when you remind them of that fact. >:D

Good enough for me  ;D