Topic: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS

[Colin P]

Interesting graphic

https://scontent.fyvr3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/48406357_10157013346644533_5452765319359627264_o.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_ht=scontent.fyvr3-1.fna&oh=c6c2cd137783e68833b4c1ebd69ee428&oe=5C99D284

[Not a Sig Op]

Wouldn't the back-EMF drop to zero and resistance drop to only the actually value across the coils, therefore causing the current to spike up, possibly limiting the ability of the generator to maintain the voltage, causing a brown out?

Pedantic, I know...

No, an ice chunk jamming in the props is taken into account when designing the system.

Worst case, your protection trips and shuts off the motor.

As an example, one vessel I worked on had a "boost" module for her generator exciter for exactly the scenario you described.

If the exciters couldn't handle the load, the boost module kicked in for a up to a preset time.

The timing on the motor protection would be set a bit shorter, so either the ice chunk came out and the motor began to spin normally, or the motor tripped off before the boost module shut off.

That was an older vessel, other vessels will probably handle it differently, probably just current limitation in the propulsion drives/trip off the drives, but ice jamming will be considered in the design if it's classed as an ice breaker.

Conventional propulsion vessels classed as ice breakers will have some sort of design consideration to deal with it as well, probably either a clutch designed to slip at high torque or sacrificial "shear pins" like a snow blower.

[Swampbuggy]

Interesting graphic

https://scontent.fyvr3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/48406357_10157013346644533_5452765319359627264_o.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_ht=scontent.fyvr3-1.fna&oh=c6c2cd137783e68833b4c1ebd69ee428&oe=5C99D284

I find it interesting to see that #6 is still being referred to as ROBERT HAMPTON GRAY. Has there ever been anything official from the RCN confirming that name?

[Chief Engineer]

I find it interesting to see that #6 is still being referred to as ROBERT HAMPTON GRAY. Has there ever been anything official from the RCN confirming that name?

Yes its official.

[Uzlu]

“The gap is not fully solved, we still have about an 18-month gap to address, but (there’s) a good commitment from the government to continue to work with us on that in the new year, ”McCoy said.

To eliminate the gap and avoid layoffs entirely, McCoy said, the shipyard would need a contract for eight AOPS and continuous Halifax-class work.

https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/news/the-year-in-shipbuilding-271085/

[suffolkowner]

https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/news/the-year-in-shipbuilding-271085/

So we'll put our crack team to the task and get two more for the price of 5?

[Rifleman62]

On the labour side of things, over the summer Irving and the shipyard union reached a new, four-year collective agreement, following months of challenging negotiations, narrowly avoiding a strike.

Interesting, with all the projects, years of work, and Irving attempting to close the "gap" there is the Union flexing. Bet 4 years from now there will be a slow down, threats of a strike.

[MilEME09]

And why is it the schedule for tge CSC cant be pushed up?

[Uzlu]

And why is it the schedule for tge CSC cant be pushed up?

It takes a lot of time to prepare the design.

[Underway]

And why is it the schedule for tge CSC cant be pushed up?

No rushing the CSC.  Need to do a really good job on the prep work before you even cut the steel.  Time spent on the front end will save millions of dollars, time and headaches down the road. 

[Colin P]

From Irving Twitter The bow section of @RCN_MRC AOPS 2, the future HMCS Margaret Brooke, is now structurally assembled. Our shipbuilders will continue interior outfitting prior to its move to join with the ship’s centre and stern sections in a few months

[NavyShooter]

I wonder if this one will actually fit...or if it'll be off-size by 6+cm like the last one...

[Chris Pook]

I wonder if this one will actually fit...or if it'll be off-size by 6+cm like the last one...

Which dimension?

[dapaterson]

Which dimension?

If it's Irving, all of them.

[Czech_pivo]

I think that this is a new posting by Irving.

http://shipsforcanada.ca/our-progress

https://youtu.be/L8wvafMNglc


Lighting off the diesel generators.

[Colin P]

Nothing like a ship that is running, gives it a whole different feel, warmth and smell, like it is alive.

[Swampbuggy]

https://twitter.com/vanguardmag/status/1105571225059897345?s=21

An interview with the CO of HMCS HARRY DEWOLF

[Czech_pivo]

Three separate times it was mentioned  having the CH-148 stationed aboard the new AOPV class will be the norm.

[Chief Engineer]

Three separate times it was mentioned  having the CH-148 stationed aboard the new AOPV class will be the norm.

As required and generally not in the Arctic. CCG helos will be used for ice spotting.

[Czech_pivo]

As required and generally not in the Arctic. CCG helos will be used for ice spotting.

May I ask this question, without having any Naval experience.

How difficult or how much effort will need to be expended in terms of having 2 completely different types of Helicopters stationed aboard an AOPV at different times for different missions?

Observations:
CH-148
1) Ship needs to be 'certified' to be able to accept/receive/discharge a CH-148
2) A specific air detachment needs to be on-board, everything from the flight crew, to the 'deck crew' (truly sorry for using the incorrect terms, mea culpa), to the aircraft maintenance crew
3) An adequate stock of extra parts and such to maintain a CH-148
4) Special layout/configuration of the helicopter bay?

CCG Helicopter
Ship needs to be 'certified' to be able to accept/receive/discharge a CCG helicopter
2) A specific CCG air detachment needs to be on-board, everything from the flight crew, to the 'deck crew' (truly sorry for using the incorrect terms, mea culpa), to the CCG aircraft maintenance crew
3) An adequate stock of extra parts and such to maintain a CCG helicopter
4) Special layout/configuration of the helicopter bay?
5) Enhanced training for the CCG air detachment in order to seamlessly integrate into a RCN ship??

Given the fact that we have such limited resources (money/bodies/hard assets), having 2 sets of air detachments for each of the upcoming 6 APOV's seems at face value to be a tremendously inefficient way to use our limited resources. Am I correct in thinking this?  Does this make operational sense?    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that one of the primary uses for the new CH-148 was for anti-submarine purposes? By stationing a CH-148 on a AOPV, is this the best usage of its capabilities?   Why not buy some more CH-149's and use them exclusively on the AOPV for SAR and Recon purposes? Does that even make any sense? 

When I look at the types of helicopters used by the CCG, the majority seems to be a number of varieties of Bell's - mostly 212's, 412's and 429's.  Of these, we don't have 3 of any one kind available on both coasts.  Does this mean that we'll have to have 2 different types of CCG helicopters certified to serve aboard the AOPV's? 

[Chief Engineer]

May I ask this question, without having any Naval experience.

How difficult or how much effort will need to be expended in terms of having 2 completely different types of Helicopters stationed aboard an AOPV at different times for different missions?

Observations:
CH-148
1) Ship needs to be 'certified' to be able to accept/receive/discharge a CH-148
2) A specific air detachment needs to be on-board, everything from the flight crew, to the 'deck crew' (truly sorry for using the incorrect terms, mea culpa), to the aircraft maintenance crew
3) An adequate stock of extra parts and such to maintain a CH-148
4) Special layout/configuration of the helicopter bay?

CCG Helicopter
Ship needs to be 'certified' to be able to accept/receive/discharge a CCG helicopter
2) A specific CCG air detachment needs to be on-board, everything from the flight crew, to the 'deck crew' (truly sorry for using the incorrect terms, mea culpa), to the CCG aircraft maintenance crew
3) An adequate stock of extra parts and such to maintain a CCG helicopter
4) Special layout/configuration of the helicopter bay?
5) Enhanced training for the CCG air detachment in order to seamlessly integrate into a RCN ship??

Given the fact that we have such limited resources (money/bodies/hard assets), having 2 sets of air detachments for each of the upcoming 6 APOV's seems at face value to be a tremendously inefficient way to use our limited resources. Am I correct in thinking this?  Does this make operational sense?    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that one of the primary uses for the new CH-148 was for anti-submarine purposes? By stationing a CH-148 on a AOPV, is this the best usage of its capabilities?   Why not buy some more CH-149's and use them exclusively on the AOPV for SAR and Recon purposes? Does that even make any sense? 

When I look at the types of helicopters used by the CCG, the majority seems to be a number of varieties of Bell's - mostly 212's, 412's and 429's.  Of these, we don't have 3 of any one kind available on both coasts.  Does this mean that we'll have to have 2 different types of CCG helicopters certified to serve aboard the AOPV's?

1. Cyclones probably won't be operating at the same time with the CCG helo detachment.
2. Cyclones won't be stationed on a AOPV all the time but are mission dependent.
3. There are only so many cyclones. priority will be CSC, AORs and training.
4. 6 AOPV's won't be operating at the same time in the Arctic thus negate needing different types of CCG helo's. In fact one helo may be shared between ships if the mission at the time doesn't call for the ship to be in ice.
5. Primary use is anti sub however can do other missions, SAR, transport etc.

[Czech_pivo]

1. Cyclones probably won't be operating at the same time with the CCG helo detachment.
2. Cyclones won't be stationed on a AOPV all the time but are mission dependent.
3. There are only so many cyclones. priority will be CSC, AORs and training.
4. 6 AOPV's won't be operating at the same time in the Arctic thus negate needing different types of CCG helo's. In fact one helo may be shared between ships if the mission at the time doesn't call for the ship to be in ice.
5. Primary use is anti sub however can do other missions, SAR, transport etc.

Thanks for the answers but this still means that we'll have to certify two sets of helicopters and air detachments per ship.  I understand that the CH-148's not be operating at the same time with the CCG helo detachment but we'll still have to train 2 completely different sets of helo groups to both work on an APOV. 

There are even less CCG helo's than Ch-148's so these will be in even more demand than the CH-148 will be.  According to the information that I can source, there are only 22 operational helo's across the entire CCG and I'm willing to bet that a fair number of them have never landed/operated on a ship before.  I know that we currently don't have all 28 CH-148's yet.

If the primary reason to use a CCG helo on board the APOV is when its operating in ice in the Arctic, why not look at using robust drones for this purpose?  Cheaper and less demand on our limited resources.  It seems at the face value that using a CH-148 on an APOV is overkill. 

Which type of CCG helo do you predict to be operating off the APOV's?

[Chief Engineer]

Thanks for the answers but this still means that we'll have to certify two sets of helicopters and air detachments per ship.  I understand that the CH-148's not be operating at the same time with the CCG helo detachment but we'll still have to train 2 completely different sets of helo groups to both work on an APOV. 

There are even less CCG helo's than Ch-148's so these will be in even more demand than the CH-148 will be.  According to the information that I can source, there are only 22 operational helo's across the entire CCG and I'm willing to bet that a fair number of them have never landed/operated on a ship before.  I know that we currently don't have all 28 CH-148's yet.

If the primary reason to use a CCG helo on board the APOV is when its operating in ice in the Arctic, why not look at using robust drones for this purpose?  Cheaper and less demand on our limited resources.  It seems at the face value that using a CH-148 on an APOV is overkill. 

Which type of CCG helo do you predict to be operating off the APOV's?

The AOPV will be eventually embarking a done while in the Arctic and on other operations. The whole idea of a helo is to read ice, mark 1 eyeball is way better than on a TV screen. As well the helo's act as a utility aircraft ferrying personnel and material ashore dependent on the task at hand. You may want to ask yourself why we using the CCG helo at all as we have our own helo and that's simply we don't have enough cyclones to go around. Best guess based on other ships, is the 429 would be used.

Its perfectly normal to have multiple aircraft certified for use on ships, Asterix can operate the Cyclone bout eventually will be certified to operate other aircraft same as AOPV. Its certainly not a perfect solution and I doubt additional aircraft will be purchased but other than the Arctic dependent on demand Cyclones will be embarked as required. Its going to be a number of years before all the AOPV's are built and CSC, there should be ample aircraft available.

[MarkOttawa]

New CCG helos in operation:

Canadian Coast Guard Praises Modern Helos for Icebreaking Mission

The Canadian Coast Guard has high marks for its fleet of 22 modern helicopters dedicated to icebreaking missions--15 Bell 429s and seven Bell 412 EPIs.

About 65 percent of the total Canadian Coast Guard helicopter flight hours support the safety of marine traffic, while the next largest block of time--icebreaking--is responsible for 15 percent of helicopter flight hours, according to the Canadian Coast Guard.

The Bell 412 EPIs began replacing Bell 212s in 2016 under the Canadian Coast Guard Fleet Renewal Plan, while the Canadian Coast Guard fielded the 15 Bell 429s between 2014 and 2016 to replace Eurocopter MBB BO-105s.

Canadian Coast Guard officials said that the modern helos provide "timely and accurate information to Coast Guard icebreaking planners and the shipping industry to update ice charts and assist in ice routing for commercial ships."

The latter can face hazardous ice floes on the Great Lakes--St. Lawrence River waterway.

The Chamber of Marine Commerce has said that shipping on that waterway generated nearly $45 billion in economic activity in 2017 and more than 328,000 jobs. One of the chamber's legislative priorities this year is "supporting creative solutions for additional ice-breaking capacity, e-navigation and ports’ needs."

The Canadian Coast Guard has had two icebreakers for the Great Lakes region this winter: the CCGS Samuel Risley, commissioned in 1985 and refitted in 2016, and the CCGS Griffon, which entered service in 1970 and which was refitted in 1995. Such icebreakers are important for ensuring the flow of supplies and energy during winter months, as well as for aiding localities with flood control by breaking apart ice jams. The helos help by escorting commercial shipping during the winter, according to the Canadian Coast Guard.

The CCGS Samuel Risley made its maiden voyage to the Arctic Ocean in July 2018.

The Canadian Coast Guard helicopters also support the rotation of ice service specialists, nurses and pilots who work on the icebreakers, as well as providing Medevacs as needed for Coast Guard personnel and people who become ill in remote northern communities, transporting technical crews to navigational aids in the Arctic, and conducting search and rescue in the Arctic and other remote regions.

"Helicopters are the only platform that can effectively support tactical ice reconnaissance for icebreakers that are actively conducting icebreaking operations," according to the Canadian Coast Guard. "Taking off from the icebreaker's deck, they provide the vessel's master with the up-to-date information needed on ice conditions in the immediate vicinity, and for up to 100 miles ahead, of both the ship and the commercial vessel or convoy that she may be escorting [emphasis added]. Neither satellite data, nor data from fixed winged aircraft can do this. For safe and effective ice operations, the icebreaker's master needs a helicopter survey that provides accurate ice information. Without such information, the ability to make sound decisions concerning how to deploy the multi-million dollar resource at the master's command is compromised, putting the icebreaker, its crew and, in particular, the ships it is escorting at risk."


https://www.rotorandwing.com/2019/03/12/canadian-coast-guard-praises-modern-helos-for-icebreaking-mission/

CCGS Louis S. St-Laurent has hangar for helos:


http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/folios/00019/docs/Louis-StLaurent-eng.pdf

Looks like the three Davie conversions will also have hangars added, don't know about other vessels in the fleet:

... Some of the modifications the Coast Guard plans for the vessel [CCGS Molly Kool], and her sister ships, were deferred, so that she could be employed ice-breaking in the St Lawrence estuary during the winter of 2019.[21] In particular, one highly visible deferred item will be the addition of a landing pad and hangar for a light utility helicopter...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CCGS_Captain_Molly_Kool

Lots more on CCG helos at large webpage (much of article at start of post taken from this):

...
The Canadian Coast Guard supports its aviation service requirements by utilizing its own fleet of 20 rotary wing aircraft across Canada. These aircraft are strategically located at eleven bases across Canada...

During the winter icebreaking program, helicopters, operating from shore-based facilities or the decks of the ships themselves help ensure that most Canadian ports are open for business year-round...

Helicopters are the only platform that can effectively support tactical ice reconnaissance for icebreakers that are actively conducting icebreaking operations. Taking off from the icebreaker's deck, they provide the vessel's master with the up-to-date information needed on ice conditions in the immediate vicinity, and for up to 100 miles ahead, of both the ship and the commercial vessel or convoy that she may be escorting...
http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/Fleet/Helicopters

Mark
Ottawa

[Czech_pivo]

Thanks for all the good info and insight Gentleman - much appreciated.

Could either of you ever envision a CH-148 embarking on an APOV with this full Mark 48 torpedo compliment and performing ASW work?