Author Topic: CP-140 Aurora  (Read 141729 times)

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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CP-140 Aurora
« Reply #475 on: July 13, 2017, 19:23:17 »
So, uhh, I guess I wasn't so wrong after all....

About?  Which part?
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Re: CP-140 Aurora
« Reply #476 on: July 14, 2017, 08:32:45 »
I agree with you, but I wonder how much of the results is due to crew training/currency as opposed to how the airplane performs?

IMHO our skills have slipped (we are bleeding experience) and we are at a tipping point.  Prior to Block III we really had to work the sensors, now we are getting by because we have a powerful sensor suite to back us up. 

The crew that pulled this off was experienced, so in this case I say it was crew training/currency.   However, the recent results from the SIMEX have exposed several areas in which we are lacking.  The aircraft performs well (back end), it's the crew training/currency that needs to be improved.   This is from an ASW perspective, which is the most challenging task we face on the CP-140. 

I don't know if that makes sense or not.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: CP-140 Aurora
« Reply #477 on: July 14, 2017, 09:55:01 »
Makes perfect sense DH.

It's the same for the fleet. ASW is just one of those complex area of warfare that requires a lot of training/currency, and that we never seem to be able to do enough of. Even the fleet has let it slip of late, due to the concentration on surface warfare that recent deployments in the Gulf and the Med have required.

It's not a new phenomena. To quote from the WWII era movie The Cruel Sea:

"So you found a submarine, you say. Oh! Have you? It could be a school of fish, or the Wardroom leftovers the steward just chucked over board. How can you tell the difference? Practice! Lots and lots of lovely practice."

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CP-140 Aurora
« Reply #478 on: July 14, 2017, 20:59:12 »
IMHO our skills have slipped (we are bleeding experience) and we are at a tipping point.  Prior to Block III we really had to work the sensors, now we are getting by because we have a powerful sensor suite to back us up. 

The crew that pulled this off was experienced, so in this case I say it was crew training/currency.   However, the recent results from the SIMEX have exposed several areas in which we are lacking.  The aircraft performs well (back end), it's the crew training/currency that needs to be improved.   This is from an ASW perspective, which is the most challenging task we face on the CP-140. 

I don't know if that makes sense or not.

The *100%-manned crews* issue is a short/medium term problem, which the solution to is (on paper) easy; train more people.

Having airframes for them to use on training and operational missions, in 2028...that part is the one that worries me.
The only time you have too much gas is when you're on fire.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CP-140 Aurora
« Reply #479 on: July 28, 2017, 19:19:50 »
Article Link

Surveillance plane crews strained after three years flying over Iraq, Syria


OTTAWA — The Canadian military is hoping the recent withdrawal of one of its Aurora surveillance planes from the fight against the Islamic State will help ease what had become a serious strain on the fleet's aircrews.

Two Auroras were deployed to the Middle East as part of Canada's response to ISIL in November 2014, along with dozens of special forces troops, six fighter jets and a refuelling plane.  Using high-powered cameras and sensors, the Auroras gathered data about possible ISIL targets for attacks and air strikes in Iraq and then, after the mission was expanded, inside Syria.

The planes have flown a total of 821 reconnaissance missions since first arriving at their base in Kuwait, with both Canadian and coalition commanders praising their role in the fight against ISIL.  But one of the Auroras was quietly withdrawn from the region in May, without explanation.

In an interview with The Canadian Press, Col. Iain Huddleston, the air force's director of fleet readiness, said the U.S.-led coalition no longer needed the plane because of the recent liberation of Mosul.  Yet he also said there had been concerns within military circles about the impact that three years of non-stop flying over Iraq and Syria was having on Aurora aircrews.


"No word of a lie that it's been a strain on our people," Huddleston said by telephone from his office in Winnipeg, "and we're happy to have some of our contribution pulled back."

While the Royal Canadian Air Force has 14 Auroras, Huddleston said that between long-term and short-term upgrades and maintenance, only four or five are available to fly on any given day.  That includes the previous two — now one — in the Middle East.

Huddleston said many of the Aurora crews have deployed multiple times into the region, where they spend months separated from family and are largely confined to a corner of a U.S. military base in Kuwait.

"We've had people go over and over again," he said. "Has it created retention problems? I don't think we're at that point yet, but it's certainly been a strain."

At the same time, military officials were concerned that the crews weren't doing enough of what the Auroras are actually designed to do: patrolling Canada's coasts for enemy ships and subs.  "We're not as good as we used to be at our other roles," Huddleston said, "and specifically we're concerned about regaining both proficiency and experience in our other roles."

The decision to pull one of the Auroras out of the Middle East should help address both problems, he added, while ensuring Canada continues to help in the fight against ISIL. 

Huddleston is the second military officer in as many months to talk about the toll that the mission, which was recently extended to 2019, has taken on the Canadian Armed Forces.  Brig.-Gen. Peter Dawe, the deputy commander of special forces, told The Canadian Press last month that his troops were operating "on borrowed time" after three years on the ground in Iraq.

Dawe said that was why the government's plan to add hundreds of new special forces soldiers in the coming years, as promised in the new defence policy proposal, was not only welcome but necessary. 
Huddleston said a similar expansion has been promised for the Aurora aircrews.

The Auroras were first flown by the military in the early 1980s and designed to patrol Canada's coastal regions for potential threats.  They have since been upgraded several times and were first used to spot targets on land during the war in Libya in 2011, when NATO was supporting rebel forces in their fight against Moammar Gadhafi.

The Harper Conservatives planned to replace them by 2020, but they are now being upgraded to fly until 2030, when a new surveillance aircraft is expected to be purchased.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Col Huddleston is a former 14 Wing Commander , for those who've never heard of him.  Nice of him to say it like it is publicly. 

As it stands now, the *most times deployed to IMPACT* award is at 4 ROTOs...with some people in the XXX missions flown over the JOA.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 21:02:20 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline Chief Stoker

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Re: CP-140 Aurora
« Reply #480 on: September 01, 2017, 10:32:10 »
It came up in conversation today has a CP-140 Aurora ever fired a Harpoon or any anti shipping missile or can they have the capability?

Thanks
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Offline WingsofFury

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Re: CP-140 Aurora
« Reply #481 on: September 01, 2017, 11:55:34 »
Capability yes, fired I have no idea.

Offline Baz

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Re: CP-140 Aurora
« Reply #482 on: September 01, 2017, 15:20:10 »
It came up in conversation today has a CP-140 Aurora ever fired a Harpoon or any anti shipping missile or can they have the capability?

Thanks

The Wings originally had the spots to take the mounts like the P-3, but we have never had the fire control system nor the weapons.  My understanding was we had the mounts but because we never put them on as the Wings aged they became impossible to fit; however, that could be lore.

Online Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: CP-140 Aurora
« Reply #483 on: September 01, 2017, 17:19:05 »
We had a bird flying around with the mounts on the wings recently here in ZX. 

We have them and they fit, that's all I know.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CP-140 Aurora
« Reply #484 on: September 01, 2017, 21:53:02 »
We *could* do it but it would take willpower and funding. 

So.  No, it won't likely happen.   :blotto:  (IMO mostly because of the second requirement...)
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Re: CP-140 Aurora
« Reply #485 on: September 02, 2017, 06:48:23 »
I keep hoping Block 4 and it's shitty self-defence suite gets shelved in favour of a new aircraft.

We could buy 4 planes and that would solve the LRP manning issues.

Offline BobSlob

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Re: CP-140 Aurora
« Reply #486 on: September 02, 2017, 08:05:45 »
Bombardier isn't ready to provide the replacement yet. It's not an election year.
+60

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CP-140 Aurora
« Reply #487 on: September 02, 2017, 08:54:32 »
Bombardier isn't ready to provide the replacement yet. It's not an election year.

 :rofl:

and

 :-\
The only time you have too much gas is when you're on fire.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CP-140 Aurora
« Reply #488 on: September 02, 2017, 08:55:59 »
I keep hoping Block 4 and it's shitty self-defence suite gets shelved in favour of a new aircraft.

We could buy 4 planes and that would solve the LRP manning issues.

Self-defence...just in time to arrive after the sustained overland stuff.   :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: CP-140 Aurora
« Reply #489 on: September 02, 2017, 09:03:00 »
Self-defence...just in time to arrive after the sustained overland stuff.   :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

The technical term is "operational capability cross-phased procurement."   ;)

Regards
G2G

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CP-140 Aurora
« Reply #490 on: September 04, 2017, 17:54:56 »
The technical term is "operational capability cross-phased procurement."   ;)

Regards
G2G

Weird because those words don't even make the acronym T.O.O.-L.A.T.E.   >:D
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Offline Dimsum

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Re: CP-140 Aurora
« Reply #491 on: September 04, 2017, 21:48:51 »
Weird because those words don't even make the acronym T.O.O.-L.A.T.E.   >:D

Well, as I've always jokingly said, just sacrifice one airframe + crew and that'll perk people's attention.

Or am I being cynical?
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CP-140 Aurora
« Reply #492 on: September 06, 2017, 04:42:19 »
200+ million was announced back in 2013-14ish for 6 LAIRCMs.   The thought at the time among some of us was it would be sooner than later and then realised it was Block 4 item.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/business-equipment/procurement-projects/aurora-cp-140.page
« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 04:46:54 by Eye In The Sky »
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Online Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: CP-140 Aurora
« Reply #493 on: September 06, 2017, 05:53:29 »
Typo?

"January 2014
Initial Operational Capability for Block III is achieved. Block III involves the upgrade to three key features:

beyond-line-of-sight satellite communication
link 16 datalink, a military tactical data exchange network used by NATO countries
self defence system"

Call me a cynic, but I foresee something like this happening.  6 planes with self-defence, 6 different planes with BLOS.

Surely the systems will also be unnecessarily complicated, which is a theme we seem to enjoy.  We don't enjoy a simple user interface, we need tabs and a great deal of Firefox windows.   The thicker and more complicated the checklist, the better.   Then we will give our aircrew members minimal training and expect them to be experts.  It'll be a crap job so it'll be assigned to the Acoustic seats, because no one above the rank of WO knows what we do anyway.   

Perhaps army.ca before the morning coffee was a bad idea.


Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CP-140 Aurora
« Reply #494 on: September 06, 2017, 20:37:24 »
The future is bright dammit.  BRIGHT!
The only time you have too much gas is when you're on fire.