Author Topic: The stuff the Army issues is Excellent!  (Read 96359 times)

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Offline garb811

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Re: The stuff the Army issues is Excellent!
« Reply #250 on: June 09, 2018, 20:11:08 »
copy.  So. drop it off at the next opportune time or wait for direction from Wg Supply?
MP at one of the Wings received an email that went Wing wide from Wing Supply stating they were to wait for further direction as this was a surprise to the RCAF writ large as apparently the Army made a unilateral call without consulting and that Wing had concerns WRT people who deploy to the FOL and sleep on cots and in sleeping bags.

Just because you aren't in one of the listed units doesn't mean you don't have a legitimate requirement for the kit that the army doesn't have awareness of so I'd expect there are some conversations being had.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: The stuff the Army issues is Excellent!
« Reply #251 on: June 09, 2018, 20:39:31 »
Makes sense to me, I was wondering about the whole Comd CA saying "give er back!" but assumed the Comd RCN, RCAF etc would have said no prob.  Some people are on (Deployment) High Ready and those items are part of the deployment kit list.  I'll stand by to stand by. 
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Re: The stuff the Army issues is Excellent!
« Reply #252 on: June 09, 2018, 21:43:33 »
MP at one of the Wings received an email that went Wing wide from Wing Supply stating they were to wait for further direction as this was a surprise to the RCAF writ large as apparently the Army made a unilateral call without consulting and that Wing had concerns WRT people who deploy to the FOL and sleep on cots and in sleeping bags.

Just because you aren't in one of the listed units doesn't mean you don't have a legitimate requirement for the kit that the army doesn't have awareness of so I'd expect there are some conversations being had.

Not privy to the whole convo but at least on the 4 side of the house the RCN, RCAF and the institutional were tracking the return and had been consulted.  Of course that is staff talking to staff even when it is high level and often issues don't get brfed well (or at all) and things get lost in the shuffle.  Not surprised that there are issues across the board.
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Offline Tcm621

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Re: The stuff the Army issues is Excellent!
« Reply #253 on: June 10, 2018, 00:08:06 »
It's funny, I tried to return mine when I transferred to the AF and they said I was missing a pouch I was never issued. They didn't want it unless it had the pouch and I was never given a pouch so we were at an empass. Bottom line it's in my basement somewhere. I dig it out and see if they will take it sans pouch now.

Also, I waited a dozen years for that ruck from the announcement to the actual issue. 6 years later they have run out. WTF Over?

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: The stuff the Army issues is Excellent!
« Reply #254 on: June 10, 2018, 08:31:09 »
I would pay the CAF $200 to be allowed to use my own ruck on ex and deployment instead of that 20 pound monstrosity.



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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: The stuff the Army issues is Excellent!
« Reply #255 on: June 11, 2018, 08:44:26 »
I would pay the CAF $200 to be allowed to use my own ruck on ex and deployment instead of that 20 pound monstrosity.


Most high altitude climbers will carry about that, in food, clothing, equipment and water, on summit day.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 08:56:03 by daftandbarmy »
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: The stuff the Army issues is Excellent!
« Reply #256 on: June 11, 2018, 12:20:33 »
This bag is better quality, has a better sizing system with a modular frame to encompass different bags.
It also has a removable support and ventilation system designed to be worn with body armor and plates

Whole thing pictured weights 8.8lbs.



Whats the price tag on our new rucksack?
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Offline Remius

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Re: The stuff the Army issues is Excellent!
« Reply #257 on: June 11, 2018, 12:34:30 »
Makes sense to me, I was wondering about the whole Comd CA saying "give er back!" but assumed the Comd RCN, RCAF etc would have said no prob.  Some people are on (Deployment) High Ready and those items are part of the deployment kit list.  I'll stand by to stand by.

This is from the CANFORGEN on who gets to keep their rucks.  But I would assume there will be exceptions.  We have Class B types parading but not on the unit establishment for example. The NCR has recently sent out times and dates as well as mobile drop off points.  Plenty of people in Ottawa don't need rucksacks or sleeping bags.

MEMBERS FROM THE FOLLOWING UNITS OR FORMATIONS ARE AUTHORIZED TO RETAIN THE MATERIEL IN PARA 3 ON THEIR INDIVIDUAL ACCOUNTS IAW THE QUANTITIES SPECIFIED ON APPLICABLE SCALES OF ISSUE:
CA: ALL DIV HQ(S), CMBG(S), CBG(S), CRPG(S), CDSG(S), DIV TRG CENTERS, INT COY(S), RCEMES, CSSB, CTC, CMTC, AND PSTC
RCAF: 1 WING: 403, 408, 430 AND 450 SQN. 2 WING: 2 WING HQ, 2 ACCU, 2 AES, 8 ACCS, 4 CES, 2 ERC AND AEW. 17 WING: 440 SQN
RCN: FDU(A), FDU(P)
CFINTCOM: JTF(X), CFNCIU(S), JMC, CFJIC, AND MCE
CJOC: CJOC HQ, ALL CFJOSG UNITS, 1 CDN DIV, JTF(N) HQ AND ASU(N)
SOFCOM: ALL UNITS AND HQ
MPC:

(1)CFHS GP:

(A)CF H SVCS GP HQ, CFHSTC FD INSTR CADRE, REG F FD UNITS AND DETS: 1, 2, AND 5 FD AMB, 1 CDN FD HOSP, P RES FD AMBS AND DETS

(B)ALL CDR/LCOL,LCDR/MAJ AND LT(N)/CAPT OF MED(00196-04),ALL RANKS OF:PA(00374-01),MED TECH(00334-01),BE TECH (00155-01),MLAB TECH (00152-01),MRAD TECH (00153-01),PMED TECH (00371-02),OR TECH (00372- 01),AND NUR (00195)

(2)CFLRS, CFLTC, CMR ST JEAN, AND RMC
ALL CA STUDENTS (BTL) UNTIL AFTER DP1 QUALIFIED OR MBRS LOADED ON COURSES/TASKING FOR THE DURATION OF TRG
VCDS: ARMY MP GP HQ: 1, 2, 3, AND 5 MP REGT. CADET ORGANIZATIONS WILL RETAIN THE KIT UNTIL AN APPROPRIATE REPLACEMENT IS PROVIDED. ALL CADET INSTRUCTORS CADRE AND HQ STAFF WILL RETURN THE ITEMS IN PARA 3
THERE WILL BE NO CHANGE TO THE ENTITLEMENTS FOR MEMBERS ON OPERATION OR OUTCAN. CFTPO TO STATE IF A MBR REQUIRES A TEMPORARY ISSUE OF KIT FOR AN EXERCISE OR A SHORT NTM TASK (EXAMPLE DART)
Optio

Offline CountDC

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Re: The stuff the Army issues is Excellent!
« Reply #258 on: June 11, 2018, 15:59:38 »
Seems to be well covered and don't see them coming up with that list without consulting all the players.

I will be happy to return my kit after having it for 6 years and using it 3 times on a weekend.  Foolishness to have everyone in the CF issued it.  In fact one of the times I used my kit was simply because the army reserves could not grasp the concept that a navy member that is in a non-deploy position and only required to do a level one qualify on the C7 could do that in our own naval combat dress. Nope, must wear army combats with all the bells and whistles.

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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: The stuff the Army issues is Excellent!
« Reply #259 on: June 11, 2018, 18:09:30 »
Seems to be well covered and don't see them coming up with that list without consulting all the players.

I will be happy to return my kit after having it for 6 years and using it 3 times on a weekend.  Foolishness to have everyone in the CF issued it.  In fact one of the times I used my kit was simply because the army reserves could not grasp the concept that a navy member that is in a non-deploy position and only required to do a level one qualify on the C7 could do that in our own naval combat dress. Nope, must wear army combats with all the bells and whistles.

They obviously never saw Steve McQueen in action then :)
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Offline Dimsum

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Re: The stuff the Army issues is Excellent!
« Reply #260 on: June 11, 2018, 20:45:26 »
Nope, must wear army combats with all the bells and whistles.

Harrumph.  You are probably in one of those "normal" sizes that they seem to run out of stock in, too!   ;)
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Re: The stuff the Army issues is Excellent!
« Reply #261 on: June 12, 2018, 08:11:14 »
Seems to be well covered and don't see them coming up with that list without consulting all the players.

I will be happy to return my kit after having it for 6 years and using it 3 times on a weekend.  Foolishness to have everyone in the CF issued it.  In fact one of the times I used my kit was simply because the army reserves could not grasp the concept that a navy member that is in a non-deploy position and only required to do a level one qualify on the C7 could do that in our own naval combat dress. Nope, must wear army combats with all the bells and whistles.

Last year when I went to the Bedford ranges we RCN folks had the option of NCDs or CADPAT if the member had them.  No helmets or webbing.  Just eye pro and ear pro. 
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Re: The stuff the Army issues is Excellent!
« Reply #262 on: June 12, 2018, 22:34:16 »
It's sad that we've so easily accepted the CAF being unable to supply and life cycle manage less than 100,000 rucksacks, boots and sleeping bags as being "efficient with resources". It's down right shameful for a 1st world military to think and act this way, but we all know that no project manager/GOFO/public servant/MND will lose their jobs over it.

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Re: The stuff the Army issues is Excellent!
« Reply #263 on: June 12, 2018, 22:40:55 »
This is from the CANFORGEN on who gets to keep their rucks.  But I would assume there will be exceptions.  We have Class B types parading but not on the unit establishment for example. The NCR has recently sent out times and dates as well as mobile drop off points.  Plenty of people in Ottawa don't need rucksacks or sleeping bags.

MEMBERS FROM THE FOLLOWING UNITS OR FORMATIONS ARE AUTHORIZED TO RETAIN THE MATERIEL IN PARA 3 ON THEIR INDIVIDUAL ACCOUNTS IAW THE QUANTITIES SPECIFIED ON APPLICABLE SCALES OF ISSUE:
CA: ALL DIV HQ(S), CMBG(S), CBG(S), CRPG(S), CDSG(S), DIV TRG CENTERS, INT COY(S), RCEMES, CSSB, CTC, CMTC, AND PSTC
RCAF: 1 WING: 403, 408, 430 AND 450 SQN. 2 WING: 2 WING HQ, 2 ACCU, 2 AES, 8 ACCS, 4 CES, 2 ERC AND AEW. 17 WING: 440 SQN
RCN: FDU(A), FDU(P)
CFINTCOM: JTF(X), CFNCIU(S), JMC, CFJIC, AND MCE
CJOC: CJOC HQ, ALL CFJOSG UNITS, 1 CDN DIV, JTF(N) HQ AND ASU(N)
SOFCOM: ALL UNITS AND HQ
MPC:

(1)CFHS GP:

(A)CF H SVCS GP HQ, CFHSTC FD INSTR CADRE, REG F FD UNITS AND DETS: 1, 2, AND 5 FD AMB, 1 CDN FD HOSP, P RES FD AMBS AND DETS

(B)ALL CDR/LCOL,LCDR/MAJ AND LT(N)/CAPT OF MED(00196-04),ALL RANKS OF:PA(00374-01),MED TECH(00334-01),BE TECH (00155-01),MLAB TECH (00152-01),MRAD TECH (00153-01),PMED TECH (00371-02),OR TECH (00372- 01),AND NUR (00195)

(2)CFLRS, CFLTC, CMR ST JEAN, AND RMC
ALL CA STUDENTS (BTL) UNTIL AFTER DP1 QUALIFIED OR MBRS LOADED ON COURSES/TASKING FOR THE DURATION OF TRG
VCDS: ARMY MP GP HQ: 1, 2, 3, AND 5 MP REGT. CADET ORGANIZATIONS WILL RETAIN THE KIT UNTIL AN APPROPRIATE REPLACEMENT IS PROVIDED. ALL CADET INSTRUCTORS CADRE AND HQ STAFF WILL RETURN THE ITEMS IN PARA 3
THERE WILL BE NO CHANGE TO THE ENTITLEMENTS FOR MEMBERS ON OPERATION OR OUTCAN. CFTPO TO STATE IF A MBR REQUIRES A TEMPORARY ISSUE OF KIT FOR AN EXERCISE OR A SHORT NTM TASK (EXAMPLE DART)

Word on the street is that the RCAF wasn't consulted...  we were told to keep them...  but I'll probably just return them... I have only used them during survival training (5 times in 13 years)

Offline dapaterson

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Re: The stuff the Army issues is Excellent!
« Reply #264 on: June 12, 2018, 22:56:16 »
I am reasonably certain that all DND/CAF Level 1 organizations were consulted.  Whether the staff in the HQs checked with their subordinate formations before sending their returns is a valid question.
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Offline Dimsum

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Re: The stuff the Army issues is Excellent!
« Reply #265 on: June 12, 2018, 23:33:34 »
Word on the street is that the RCAF wasn't consulted...  we were told to keep them...  but I'll probably just return them... I have only used them during survival training (5 times in 13 years)

I guess each Wing is different?  We were told to hand them back ASAP.
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: The stuff the Army issues is Excellent!
« Reply #266 on: June 13, 2018, 00:05:10 »
I am reasonably certain that all DND/CAF Level 1 organizations were consulted.  Whether the staff in the HQs checked with their subordinate formations before sending their returns is a valid question.

One of my NCOs used to be the storeman out at Albert Head. He's pretty sure that the hundreds of sleeping bags and rucks that he managed during his tenure are still being held in stores out there.

How many similar 'little piles of joy' are there across Canada, unknown to those on high, I wonder?

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Offline dapaterson

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Re: The stuff the Army issues is Excellent!
« Reply #267 on: June 13, 2018, 06:17:12 »
If he did his job right, those holdings are visible.
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Re: The stuff the Army issues is Excellent!
« Reply #268 on: June 13, 2018, 06:26:35 »
One of my NCOs used to be the storeman out at Albert Head. He's pretty sure that the hundreds of sleeping bags and rucks that he managed during his tenure are still being held in stores out there.

How many similar 'little piles of joy' are there across Canada, unknown to those on high, I wonder?

None in Halifax and almost none in NS.  Shearwater, DKYRD and the Armouries are all at zero stock levels.  We had to draw off Greenwood to send our divers up north.

It's sad that we've so easily accepted the CAF being unable to supply and life cycle manage less than 100,000 rucksacks, boots and sleeping bags as being "efficient with resources". It's down right shameful for a 1st world military to think and act this way, but we all know that no project manager/GOFO/public servant/MND will lose their jobs over it.

That's not 100% true PC.  I would bet that there are a ton of people in the CAF who have Rucks and sleeping bag sys complete that aren't entitled to them.  We have an unfounded belief that the Canadian Forces Supply System is a constant failure, when in reality its not.  Its actually a very good system that we, the whole of the CAF, abuse and circumvent and then blame said system for failure.  We have a problem in the CAF and its Kit hoarding.  And its not just limited to clothing, its also spare parts.


« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 06:43:38 by Halifax Tar »
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Re: The stuff the Army issues is Excellent!
« Reply #269 on: June 13, 2018, 07:53:44 »
Was more a rant about lack of funding. With no money to buy enough items and keep them stocked, CFSS is forced to constantly make items deployment only or change entitlements to do the best job possible. When you underfund projects and aren't allowed to buy replacements for broken kit, we get this problem.

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: The stuff the Army issues is Excellent!
« Reply #270 on: June 13, 2018, 08:42:32 »
None in Halifax and almost none in NS.  Shearwater, DKYRD and the Armouries are all at zero stock levels.  We had to draw off Greenwood to send our divers up north.

That's not 100% true PC.  I would bet that there are a ton of people in the CAF who have Rucks and sleeping bag sys complete that aren't entitled to them.  We have an unfounded belief that the Canadian Forces Supply System is a constant failure, when in reality its not.  Its actually a very good system that we, the whole of the CAF, abuse and circumvent and then blame said system for failure.  We have a problem in the CAF and its Kit hoarding.  And its not just limited to clothing, its also spare parts.

This is wrong, we are not well supplied!  We aren't talking about tanks or planes here, we are talking about basic equipment a soldier needs to function in the field.  A rucksack should be issued to every member of the Army and Air Force on joining the Forces, it certainly shouldn't be a controlled item, it's a large hiking bag for god sakes. 

It's especially bad when you consider that we are supposed to be a professional force with an expeditionary mindset.  We can't even get uniforms or boots right.  The real problem is we don't maintain a national stockpile of war stock any more.  I'm of the opinion that the CAF should, at a minimum, maintain 3x the amount of kit as personnel in its Active Force.  Shortages should be dealt with by drawing from the National Stockpile and the National Stockpile should be periodically topped up. 

Taking this a step further, I believe Reserve units should maintain a stockpile of basic equipment - uniforms, weapons, equipment, etc. To be able to rapidly outfit a Battalion.  Considering the Reserves are supposed to be  a mobilization force, this would make sense.

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Re: The stuff the Army issues is Excellent!
« Reply #271 on: June 13, 2018, 08:48:49 »

We have an unfounded belief that the Canadian Forces Supply System is a constant failure, when in reality its not.  Its actually a very good system that we, the whole of the CAF, abuse and circumvent and then blame said system for failure.  We have a problem in the CAF and its Kit hoarding.  And its not just limited to clothing, its also spare parts.

When your HPR standard timeline is 5 days, yes your system is broken. That's why people hoard parts.  FedEx/Purolator/Canada Post can deliver it the next day.  An aircraft goes down on Monday?  You won't see it back online until at least Tuesday the next week (that's if the right part comes in and it is serviceable)

 When you have to use NSN for ordering aircraft parts (which some parts have the same NSN - for example a same part for different side of the aircraft), your system is broken and that's why people order 4 of the same part hoping to get one that is the correct one.

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Re: The stuff the Army issues is Excellent!
« Reply #272 on: June 13, 2018, 09:28:09 »
When your HPR standard timeline is 5 days, yes your system is broken. That's why people hoard parts.  FedEx/Purolator/Canada Post can deliver it the next day.  An aircraft goes down on Monday?  You won't see it back online until at least Tuesday the next week (that's if the right part comes in and it is serviceable)

 When you have to use NSN for ordering aircraft parts (which some parts have the same NSN - for example a same part for different side of the aircraft), your system is broken and that's why people order 4 of the same part hoping to get one that is the correct one.

The spare parts system flaws are much deeper than just material priority codes, required delivery dates and identification of parts.  There is a fundamental lack of understanding of how to properly scale and manage parts that flows down from ADMMAT all the way down to the units both in a practical sense and in our wonderful system of record DRMIS (Defence Resource Management Information System). 

SAP/DRMIS is a powerful tool that we haven't used properly cause quite frankly there are very few people that understand how to use it to its full potential (myself included).  We put decent people in positions who get the ball a bit further ahead but then we post them out and their work collapses because the next guy has a grander or different plan.  One of the very smart people in the CA has PowerPoint that highlights our mismanagement of parts in DRMIS by showing the ordering history of one small part worth less than a dollar.  It shows a number of separate orders for this part in a short time span from a single unit that went all to the depots (so 3rd line support) and back down to the units.  These washers come from the manufacturer in packs of ten but every time the unit ordered one, the package would be broken at the depot level and one part extracted and sent all the way down to the unit.  The issue is simple to fix if:
  • LCMM/TA put in a batch # (that way you could only order 10 at time)
  • That the unit's 2nd line support repair parts section had the parts in stock with max/mins set (max and mins being the most you should hold and the re-order point)
  • The unit themselves had scaling with max and mins set

Those are just the simple from the ground floor things that are wrong, there are a number of issues with how we acquire and control stock at our highest levels (as evident by the CANFORGEN in question).

Overall I don't blame the units in particular cause they are the last stop in the grotesque chain which has led to many of them employing practices that contribute to breaking the system.  Recently,  Canadian Material Support Group has recognized that they have flaws in their management of material and its delivery and they have thrown money at the problem in the interim while they figure out a better way forward but there needs to be a holistic look at the issues and the fixes need to be at every level.
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Re: The stuff the Army issues is Excellent!
« Reply #273 on: June 13, 2018, 09:52:14 »
When your HPR standard timeline is 5 days, yes your system is broken. That's why people hoard parts.  FedEx/Purolator/Canada Post can deliver it the next day.  An aircraft goes down on Monday?  You won't see it back online until at least Tuesday the next week (that's if the right part comes in and it is serviceable)

 When you have to use NSN for ordering aircraft parts (which some parts have the same NSN - for example a same part for different side of the aircraft), your system is broken and that's why people order 4 of the same part hoping to get one that is the correct one.

Your post also reminded me that we have a very flawed way of looking at our broken vehicles and triaging them at least in the CA.  So every unit brfs on their Vehicle Off-Road (VOR) as a percentage of  how many vehs are broken.  The common thought is high VOR is bad and when it reaches a certain point we should be throwing the kitchen sink at the problem until it is low.  We also use a veh priority repair list which drives what vehs are priority over other vehs when it comes to triaging repairs.  Talking to a very smart dude it is a bit *** backwards, we really should be looking at what are your current tasks and what do you need to do them?  If you are Immediate Reaction Unit West and you need 10 MSVS trucks for example as long as you have 10 that can roll you are GTG.  If you breach that threshold, that is your repair priority not the 30 other broken vehs that can't help you accomplish your assigned task.  Sounds pretty common sense but for some reason we fixate on VOR% rather than capability.

We actually just had this methodology applied in an operational theater with a fairly diverse fleet and once people grasped the concept it worked out great.  It also worked because it was command driven, made sense and we could focus on fixing what mattered as it was linked to actual tasks/capbility, not what was arbitrarily picked as a priority.

Sorry, I have completely hijacked the thread
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Re: The stuff the Army issues is Excellent!
« Reply #274 on: June 13, 2018, 10:41:46 »
This is wrong, we are not well supplied!  We aren't talking about tanks or planes here, we are talking about basic equipment a soldier needs to function in the field.  A rucksack should be issued to every member of the Army and Air Force on joining the Forces, it certainly shouldn't be a controlled item, it's a large hiking bag for god sakes.
 

Rucks and sleeping aren't a controlled item.  They are accountable, but they aren't controlled.  And no not every member of the CA or RCAF needs a Field kit.  Lots of positions outside of line units and including some line units have no requirement for pers to have field kit.  Its called Field Kit SOI because it meant to equip those members who are expected to go to the field on a frequent enough basis to warrant an issue.  Your uniform or service (RCAF/RCN/CA ect) does not dictate your SOIs, your UIC and billet number do.  I can tell you for a fact that there are lots of RCN folks walking around with field kit that was issue for courses or tasking's that haven't been returned yet, this is what I mean as an example of kit hoarding.

It's especially bad when you consider that we are supposed to be a professional force with an expeditionary mindset.  We can't even get uniforms or boots right.  The real problem is we don't maintain a national stockpile of war stock any more.  I'm of the opinion that the CAF should, at a minimum, maintain 3x the amount of kit as personnel in its Active Force.  Shortages should be dealt with by drawing from the National Stockpile and the National Stockpile should be periodically topped up.
 

Procuring the right uniforms or boots isn't really what we are talking about here.  As for having more stock, ok.  No argument there.

Taking this a step further, I believe Reserve units should maintain a stockpile of basic equipment - uniforms, weapons, equipment, etc. To be able to rapidly outfit a Battalion.  Considering the Reserves are supposed to be  a mobilization force, this would make sense.

In a perfect world, sure.

When your HPR standard timeline is 5 days, yes your system is broken. That's why people hoard parts.  FedEx/Purolator/Canada Post can deliver it the next day.  An aircraft goes down on Monday?  You won't see it back online until at least Tuesday the next week (that's if the right part comes in and it is serviceable)

I have delivered lots of stuff in a day.  All units can arrange for alternate delivery methods, i.e.  FedEx/Purolator/Canada Post, hand carry, but your unit has to be willing to pay for it.  YOu have to remember we live in a big honking country.  If you are in Comox and need a part from Montreal, well that is going to take some time.  That's just the limits of the size of our country

When you have to use NSN for ordering aircraft parts (which some parts have the same NSN - for example a same part for different side of the aircraft), your system is broken and that's why people order 4 of the same part hoping to get one that is the correct one.

<caveat> I have no time with the RCAF <caveat>

If you have parts that are different depending on the side of the aircraft they are on then they should have different NSNs.  Your tech have publications and programs that should tell them what NSNs to order, I have sent many a stoker back to his CFTOs and schematics to investigate the part they need.  Ordering four of the same part, because you cant identify what you actually need, when you actually need one is only compounding the problem WRT lack of spare parts. 

Its a huge issue on ships.  Engineers are awful for keeping "bench stock" of even NS parts.  When these should be returned to the repair lines to continue the parts life cycle and be available for issue to someone in need.
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