Author Topic: CH-148 Cyclone Progress  (Read 586858 times)

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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #1000 on: May 16, 2018, 09:03:48 »
Am I wrong in my assumption that the ACSO will also be trained in sensor operations? 

The NCM is only there to take the fall when things go south.   :stirpot:

The door gunner on the cyclone will get to see the nice parts of the world, and travel in style!

The entire crew is going have to operate as a crew, interpreting sensor info, is my guess. Raising, lowering and operating the sonar is probably (I am not Cyclone trained) an AESOp only job, but I would guess passive acoustic, EO, radar and ESM interpretation will get shared around to whomever has the time.

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #1001 on: May 16, 2018, 09:05:29 »
Any guess as to which sensor the pilot would manage? Just curious.

See my post above. I don't believe "union rules" are going to work on this helicopter.

Anyway, we have drifted this thread off of door gunnery...

Offline Baz

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #1002 on: May 16, 2018, 09:52:37 »
The entire crew is going have to operate as a crew, interpreting sensor info, is my guess. Raising, lowering and operating the sonar is probably (I am not Cyclone trained) an AESOp only job, but I would guess passive acoustic, EO, radar and ESM interpretation will get shared around to whomever has the time.

The dome control is located between the TACCO and AESOP, but the sonar is next to the AESOPs seat, so the TACCO can't really see it raising and lowering.

The sonobuoy and tethered sonar OMIs are not available to the pilot.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #1003 on: May 17, 2018, 05:40:21 »


Anyway, we have drifted this thread off of door gunnery...

True; Mods, can you move the Cyclone 'stuff' to this thread?

https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,35098.975.html
Pilot, RADAR...turn right, heading...3-6-5...

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #1004 on: May 17, 2018, 06:00:08 »
The entire crew is going have to operate as a crew, interpreting sensor info, is my guess. Raising, lowering and operating the sonar is probably (I am not Cyclone trained) an AESOp only job, but I would guess passive acoustic, EO, radar and ESM interpretation will get shared around to whomever has the time.

Do MH Pilots & ACSOs do BPAAC, Triple-A-C coursing? 

I've never done MH, so this is a generalized comment;  IMO, for RMP/ASuW, you (and MH AES Ops) will probably find that the AES Op can handle RADAR and ESM quiet easily and EO as well.  When we are heading to and getting ONSTA, once the sfc plot is settled, 1 NASO can and does take RADAR/ESM/EO on their own (with what is most likely a bigger sensor horizon than MHs usually have, just by our altitude).  I've done ASW with 4 AES Ops total (2 wet, 2 dry);  with the 2 wet folks stuck in their seat the whole time, that left 1 dry guy for Ordinance and 1 to do RADAR/ESM/EOIR/MAD.  I set up the sensor seats and ran it for a few hours, then I put my B Cat on the rail, explained how/why I set things up the way I did, and then I went back to Ordinance for the second half of the trip.  It worked fine; not ideal, but the point is I think after people get comfortable with the sensors they'll realize that the bigger job may be analyzing the amount of data, not gathering it.  That might be the bigger task for the non-flying pilot, backing up the TACCO while the SENSO mashes buttons and feeds data into the DMS.

ASW - I don't see how the acoustic stuff is going to be shared based on my understanding of acoustics (very basic...enough to be dangerous and misleading probably).   With really decreased sensor horizons in the dip, at least the TACCO and non-flying pilot won't have to worry about a gazillion ESM hits and RADAR contacts.

Question - has the MH community considered getting current LRP line and training sqn reps down for any working groups happening, to get our take on things based on our Blk 3 experience?   We've done a significant amount of overland and maritime stuff the past few years;  getting some suggestions and face-to-face with people currently at 404, 405 might be of value. 

* I know the ship has already sailed on this, but man it would have been nice if there was 1 more station on the platform.  It would free the TACCO up from 'getting data' and allow him/her to think tactics and manage info.  I'd also like to win the lottery, if anyone comes along that can make the new MH platform come with a '5th seat'.   ;D
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 06:23:53 by Eye In The Sky »
Pilot, RADAR...turn right, heading...3-6-5...

Offline Baz

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #1005 on: May 17, 2018, 08:15:33 »
I know, this needs to move to a different thread, we war *way* off topic...

Do MH Pilots & ACSOs do BPAAC, Triple-A-C coursing? 

The pilot's do not have access to the native sono processor and sonar OMI; they only get the processed info like tracks.

Question - has the MH community considered getting current LRP line and training sqn reps down for any working groups happening, to get our take on things based on our Blk 3 experience?   We've done a significant amount of overland and maritime stuff the past few years;  getting some suggestions and face-to-face with people currently at 404, 405 might be of value. 

Yes, more than once; I've personally been involved.

* I know the ship has already sailed on this, but man it would have been nice if there was 1 more station on the platform.  It would free the TACCO up from 'getting data' and allow him/her to think tactics and manage info.  I'd also like to win the lottery, if anyone comes along that can make the new MH platform come with a '5th seat'.   ;D

Not just about the seat.  There is a simple answer; the MH isn't supposed to do as much as the MPA.  Before I put a fifth seat in I'd add TCDL and give some of it to the ship...  The crewing of the MH has been studied Ad Nauseam.

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #1006 on: May 17, 2018, 09:00:47 »
That is pretty much the answer.

A Maritime Helicopter is only crewed to do one thing at a time (despite some community opinion to the contrary).

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #1007 on: May 17, 2018, 09:35:08 »
Copy that. 

My question about the cross-talk came after reading the article linked in this post , specifically this passage:

Quote
Question: Moving from Sea Kings to Cyclones is bringing about a shift in cultures as well because of the technological shifts and the work flow shifts.  How will you deal with the culture change?

Colonel Sid Connor: “We have elements of our culture that we absolutely must maintain and we have elements of our culture that going forward we absolutely must drop. We need to figure out which is which and that will happen as we operate and shape lessons learned from our operations. We really won’t know the right answers until we operate and learn from those operations.  But culture change is clearly part of the challenge.

I was more curious if there was 'current line operator to current line operator' level talks;  'at the weed level'.  Good to know the communities are talking though;  I exist in a pretty small bubble and don't hear everything going on.  I've done more co-op with Cdn MH away from homeplate than 'local', which is strange considering how close the Sqns are on both coasts.

Also, from the same article:

Quote
“We are doing exercises this Fall and next year which will help shape our thinking about load sharing within the helicopter in executing missions more effectively.  The first will be the Submarine Commanders Course and the next will be at RIMPAC 2018.”

Good luck to the crews!
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 10:23:30 by Eye In The Sky »
Pilot, RADAR...turn right, heading...3-6-5...

Offline Baz

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #1008 on: May 17, 2018, 10:41:56 »
Quote
“We are doing exercises this Fall and next year which will help shape our thinking about load sharing within the helicopter in executing missions more effectively.  The first will be the Submarine Commanders Course and the next will be at RIMPAC 2018.”

I would check your DND sources wrt RIMPAC...

Offline AirDet

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #1009 on: May 18, 2018, 20:40:17 »
Many ex-LRP AESOPs wear their VPI patches on MH Sqns.

The problem with a wet and dry sensor op is that there are only two work stations in the back and no room for another.

For better or worse, we are going to have to figure out how to manage the battle with a 4 person crew. Luckily, the helicopter largely flies itself, so one of the pilots can be freed up to also work a sensor.
Do you really want a pilot running sensors?! Remember Johnny 5?
Just because an opinion differs doesn't make it any less valid. Remember those who gave their ALL to guarantee freedom of speech.

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #1010 on: May 18, 2018, 20:46:45 »
Do you really want a pilot running sensors?! Remember Johnny 5?

What voice do we have?

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #1011 on: May 18, 2018, 21:17:41 »
Do you really want a pilot running sensors?! Remember Johnny 5?

If they are trained to be a secondary, why not?  They could use RADAR in its basic functions, or slew EO onto a surface track, or monitor the plot for air tracks. 

The cultural change, that could be one of the big factors - but I can tell you, it's very manageable to run RADAR, EO and ESM all by yourself as a sensor type especially when you're low and slow.  I'd be insulted if we were cruising around at 2500' and someone asked me if I 'needed a hand'.   :orly:   Down lower, we also have MAD in the picture and it's no big deal to manage all 4 really, unless you're in a crazy dense contact area, but even then you'll be moving slower than I'm used to so have more time to operate/analyze.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 21:24:30 by Eye In The Sky »
Pilot, RADAR...turn right, heading...3-6-5...

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #1012 on: May 19, 2018, 11:54:22 »
Do you really want a pilot running sensors?! Remember Johnny 5?

Some pilots are quite capable of running on-board sensors when no ACSO or AESOp is on the helicopter.....ever. 

Perhaps 148 pilots could ask 147 pilots how to use state-of-the-art sensors like the Webcam MX-15HDi (and then adapt it accordingly to their own environment)?  ???

G2G

Offline Baz

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #1013 on: May 19, 2018, 12:00:02 »
Some pilots are quite capable of running on-board sensors when no ACSO or AESOp is on the helicopter.....ever. 

Perhaps 148 pilots could ask 147 pilots how to use state-of-the-art sensors like the Webcam MX-15HDi (and then adapt it accordingly to their own environment)?  ???

G2G

One Sea King had a MX-15HDi on it (12416)....

In some ways EO is just an extension of the pilot's Mk-1 eyeball, which is arguably still the best sensor on the aircraft.  I would actually like to see a head tracker so the pilot can slew the turret to what he sees... like other aircraft already have.

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #1014 on: May 19, 2018, 13:13:35 »
One Sea King had a MX-15HDi on it (12416)....

In some ways EO is just an extension of the pilot's Mk-1 eyeball, which is arguably still the best sensor on the aircraft.  I would actually like to see a head tracker so the pilot can slew the turret to what he sees... like other aircraft already have.

I wouldn't say 'just', but an important part of...

Slewed...and queued...to key aircrew's (any aircrew with an HMD) attention to a sensor's track, if not slewed.  :nod:

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #1015 on: May 19, 2018, 15:11:34 »
One Sea King had a MX-15HDi on it (12416)....

In some ways EO is just an extension of the pilot's Mk-1 eyeball, which is arguably still the best sensor on the aircraft.  I would actually like to see a head tracker so the pilot can slew the turret to what he sees... like other aircraft already have.

That would be cool. And would end the perennial question from the back end over the ICS "which way are you looking"?

Example-

Pilot: Crew- feather in the water! CERTSUB!

Tacco: Where?

Pilot: Right over there!

Tacco: (getting angry) no, moron- give me a direction and estimated range....
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 15:14:39 by SeaKingTacco »

Offline Baz

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #1016 on: May 19, 2018, 15:33:50 »
That would be cool. And would end the perennial question from the back end over the ICS "which way are you looking"?

Example-

Pilot: Crew- feather in the water! CERTSUB!

Tacco: Where?

Pilot: Right over there!

Tacco: (getting angry) no, moron- give me a direction and estimated range....

It was part of the reason the ASP camera had a place to plug it in up front... instead of the pilot saying there were a bunch of boats around you could just take pictures of them and get the bearing line in the back.  Wasn't well understood by the crews though...

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #1017 on: May 19, 2018, 15:41:32 »
It was taught well enough (at least to me)- it just never really came up in an operational setting before we stopped hooking the camera up and transfering photos in ASP.

Offline Baz

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #1018 on: May 19, 2018, 16:04:30 »
It was taught well enough (at least to me)- it just never really came up in an operational setting before we stopped hooking the camera up and transfering photos in ASP.

Why did you stop hooking it up?  I never got mub feedback then and even less now...

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #1019 on: May 19, 2018, 17:06:57 »
That would be cool. And would end the perennial question from the back end over the ICS "which way are you looking"?

Example-

Pilot: Crew- feather in the water! CERTSUB!

Tacco: Where?

Pilot: Right over there!

Tacco: (getting angry) no, moron- give me a direction and estimated range....

I wanted to use a smiley face but wasn't sure if you were joking... :Tin-Foil-Hat:

* if you're not joking, I can see if someone from our world can help you guys out with...stuff like that.   ;D
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 17:09:58 by Eye In The Sky »
Pilot, RADAR...turn right, heading...3-6-5...

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #1020 on: May 19, 2018, 20:11:13 »
To be fair, it does not happen often, but when it does, it is epically frustrating for us denizens of the aluminum tube, who sit sideways and do not have a window.

Offline Colin P

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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #1022 on: May 20, 2018, 15:37:27 »
HIFR