Author Topic: Made in Canada military aircraft?  (Read 8411 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline SupersonicMax

    is back home.

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 79,690
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,748
Re: Made in Canada military aircraft?
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2018, 19:05:37 »
Although virtual reality probably isn't a widely used stage for the aircraft design process, some companies such as Pratt and Whitney seem to be using it. Beaverworks seems be planning to use virtual reality to see how the aircraft looks in full size ( probably because they don't have the budget to actually make the aircraft).

https://www.aviationtoday.com/2017/08/24/9-companies-using-augmented-virtual-reality-aviation/

I admit that I have no clue about how the aircraft design process works, this was just something that seemed quite interesting. Why would designing an aircraft on paper cost tens of millions of dollars? If it costs that much to simply design an fighter jet, I don't know how they have even passed this step when designing the plane. According to them, they have paid for everything themselves which now seems quite unlikely.

VR may be a tool used in the design but it certainly is not a step of the process.  If they have nothing to show (ie: no design), VR will just show them what they want to see vs what needs to be improved.

It cost that much to put something on paper because you need dozens of engineers full time for years to design the aircraft, make the compromises to achieve the design goals and come up with a prototype design.  It is a lot more than creating mold line.  How much fuel do you want?  15,000 lbs internal? Well, we need to increase space in the wings which means we'll have to strenghten them and it will also increase RCS.  Strenhtening the wings means the aircraft will be heavier and will affect the takeoff and landing distances.  I guess we could out those new brakes on the aircraft to bring the landing distance down again but it'll cost you more.  Oh and those wings?  The aerodynamicist just told us it will reduce the maneuvering longitudinal static stability, meaning we'll have to modify the flight controls laws, and increase the dynamic longitudinal stability damping ratio, which is likely going to lead to sluggish pitch control.  I guess we can put a bigger stabilator to overcome te damping ratio issue but it will also add weight since we need bigger control actuators.  And so on for each small design change.

Offline Ashkan08

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 1,025
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 54
Re: Made in Canada military aircraft?
« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2018, 19:11:31 »
VR may be a tool used in the design but it certainly is not a step of the process.  If they have nothing to show (ie: no design), VR will just show them what they want to see vs what needs to be improved.

It cost that much to put something on paper because you need dozens of engineers full time for years to design the aircraft, make the compromises to achieve the design goals and come up with a prototype design.  It is a lot more than creating mold line.  How much fuel do you want?  15,000 lbs internal? Well, we need to increase space in the wings which means we'll have to strenghten them and it will also increase RCS.  Strenhtening the wings means the aircraft will be heavier and will affect the takeoff and landing distances.  I guess we could out those new brakes on the aircraft to bring the landing distance down again but it'll cost you more.  Oh and those wings?  The aerodynamicist just told us it will reduce the maneuvering longitudinal static stability, meaning we'll have to modify the flight controls laws, and increase the dynamic longitudinal stability damping ratio, which is likely going to lead to sluggish pitch control.  I guess we can put a bigger stabilator to overcome te damping ratio issue but it will also add weight since we need bigger control actuators.  And so on for each small design change.

Makes sense. Thanks for the explanation.

Offline Spencer100

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 8,130
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 321
Re: Made in Canada military aircraft?
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2018, 13:22:58 »
I thought I would post this here.


https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/bombardier-slashing-5-000-jobs-selling-assets-for-us-900-million-1.1165065

And with announcement this is the end of a Canadian Global Aerospace company.  Canada moves to a third tier aerospace industry.  On a good note DHC is coming back!  Good Luck Viking.





Online MarkOttawa

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 65,035
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 6,169
  • Two birthdays
    • The 3Ds Blog
Re: Made in Canada military aircraft?
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2018, 13:28:21 »
How much longer for CRJ in face on new Embraers, backed by Boeing?  Now bizjet company:

Quote
Bombardier to sell Q400 programme

Bombardier has disclosed that it is selling its Dash 8 turboprop programme to a subsidiary of Longview Aviation Capital Corporation for $300 million.

Longview is a holding company which includes Viking Air, the manufacturer of the revived DHC-6 Twin Otter programme.

Bombardier says the sale includes the Q400 programme, as well as all assets and intellectual property for other Dash 8 models – comprising the -100, -200 and -300.

It also involves divesting the related aftermarket operations.

Bombardier says the transaction will close by the second half of next year. It expects net proceeds of $250 million.

Having already sold the CSeries twinjet programme to a partnership controlled by Airbus, Bombardier has been left with the CRJ regional jet as its primary commercial air transport product.

Bombardier says it will give its “full attention” to the CRJ programme.

It says it will also “explore strategic options” for the CRJ, while focusing on reducing costs and increasing volumes, as well as “optimising” the aftermarket for the fleet of 1,500 CRJs in service
[emphasis added].
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/bombardier-to-sell-q400-programme-453463/?cmpid=SOC|Twitter|Flightglobal|sf201832088|sf201832088&sfid=701w0000000uP3H#sf201832088

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Online MarkOttawa

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 65,035
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 6,169
  • Two birthdays
    • The 3Ds Blog
Re: Made in Canada military aircraft?
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2018, 17:01:12 »
Unless Airbus Eurofighter wins new RCAF fighter competition (unlikely), would think company will eventually try to move almost all #A220 production from Bombardier, Mirabel to Mobile, Alabama--more attractive long-term than Quebec (no unions etc. https://business.financialpost.com/pmn/business-pmn/union-representing-2000-quebec-workers-has-mixed-feelings-about-cseries-airbus-deal), win US hearts and minds--who cares about Canada?

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Online MarkOttawa

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 65,035
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 6,169
  • Two birthdays
    • The 3Ds Blog
Re: Made in Canada military aircraft?
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2018, 17:30:01 »
As I said, bizjets:

Quote
Bombardier shifts focus away from commercial aircraft

Though the CRJ programme remains under Bombardier's wing, company executives made clear on 8 November that Bombardier's focus has shifted away from commercial aviation.

"Bombardier is well positioned with our rail, business aircraft and aero-structures business," says chief executive Alain Bellemare during Bombardier's third quarter earnings call. "In the future, this will be where we will deploy our capital to [ensure] strong return on investment."

His comments came as Bombardier announced it intends to shed 5,000 jobs and sell both the Dash 8 programme and the business aircraft training unit.

The company is "sharpening its focus on our biggest growth opportunities", Bellemare says.

Longview Aviation Capital, an affiliate of British Columbia-based Viking Air, has agreed to purchase the Dash 8 programme, including the Q400, for $300 million. Viking Air in 2016 purchased Bombardier's CL line of water bombers.

"We believe that there's a better owner than us to keep this programme going," says Bellemare of the Q400.

The announcement follows news earlier this year that Bombardier sold the Toronto Downsview site where it assembles the Q400. Bombardier has enjoyed some recent Q400 sales success, but outstanding orders still stand at only 62, according to FlightGlobal's Fleets Analyzer database.

Longview calls the Dash 8 a "perfect complement" to its portfolio, saying it will "continue to independently operate" the Q400 programme at Downsview until at least 2021.

Bombardier also reached a deal to sell its business aircraft training business to Quebec-based pilot training company CAE for $800 million.

Both agreements require regulatory approval and will likely close in the second half of 2019, Bombardier says.

Bellemare insists Bombardier remains committed to CRJs. But, he concedes the programme has been losing money and says Bombardier is keeping options open.

"We will also continue to actively participate in the regional aircraft market," he says. "In terms of exploring strategic options – it something that is always on the table."

"We are losing money on the CRJs. We need to see more movements [from] the suppliers in terms of reducing cost," he adds. "Our focus is on reducing cost and increasing volumes."

Bombardier holds only 54 outstanding orders for CRJs, according to FlightGlobal's Fleets Analyzer database
[emphasis added].

The 5,000 job cuts will come within 12 to 18 months, and the company will transfer aerospace engineers to other units, with most going to the business aircraft division, Bellemare says.

Those efforts are part of a plan to save $250 million annually by 2021.

Bombardier reported a third quarter net profit of $149 million, reversing a $100 million net loss in the same period last year.

The commercial aircraft unit earned a $4 million profit before interest and taxes, but revenue declined by half to $256 million, largely reflecting the CSeries divestment.

Bombardier delivered five commercial aircraft in the quarter and expects to deliver 35 for the full year, says chief financial officer John Di Bert.

The company's business aircraft unit posted a profit of $80 million, down 8% year-over-year, while revenue inched up 1% to $1.1 billion.

Bombardier handed over 31 aircraft in the quarter and remains on track to deliver 135 business aircraft in 2018, including the first Global 7500, expected for December delivery, Di Bert says.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/bombardier-shifts-focus-away-from-commercial-aircraf-453473/

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline Rifleman62

    Retired.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 85,915
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,854
Re: Made in Canada military aircraft?
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2018, 19:21:23 »
Oh, OH. Now what is the RCAF going to be stuck with?
Never Congratulate Yourself In Victory, Nor Blame Your Horses In Defeat - Old Cossack Expression

Offline Spencer100

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 8,130
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 321
Re: Made in Canada military aircraft?
« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2018, 21:48:40 »
I see Vikings plan now,  run the last ones down line. They will not have a plant after 2021. And than service and spares for the next twenty years or more.  Good plan from a business point of view.  You can never loss money on service parts.  Viking doesn't have sales org to get many new sales, or will they have engineers to update the product. Or capital.  Plus the ATR sells for cheaper anyway.  As I said end of the road for OEM aerospace in Canada. Oh well, think of the bright side...less gov handouts to bombardier.:)

Offline Czech_pivo

  • Member
  • ****
  • 2,890
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 158
Re: Made in Canada military aircraft?
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2018, 07:47:55 »
"As I said end of the road for OEM aerospace in Canada. Oh well, think of the bright side...less gov handouts to bombardier.:)"

Another step back to our Canadian roots of 'drawers of water and hewers of wood.'

Kevin, get me axe, the woods are calling me back....

Online MarkOttawa

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 65,035
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 6,169
  • Two birthdays
    • The 3Ds Blog
Re: Made in Canada military aircraft?
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2018, 15:01:06 »
The sorry story of where all your taxpayer money (not Bombardier family's) has gone:

Quote
Viking Air Takeover Ends Bombardier Turboprop Era

Bombardier’s agreement to sell the Dash 8, Q400 and the de Havilland name to Western Canada’s Longview Aviation Capital, parent company of Viking Air, ends a venture into regional turboprops that began in 1992 when it acquired de Havilland Canada from Boeing.

Under the agreement announced by Bombardier, Longview will receive all assets and type certificates associated with the Dash 8 program and will assume responsibility for the worldwide support of more than 1,000 aircraft in service or scheduled for production. Bombardier has a backlog of 66 aircraft. Longview is paying $300 million for the program.

Longview says it will continue to produce the Q400 at the Downsview, Ontario, factory. Bombardier sold the Downsview site in May for $600 million and will move Global business-jet assembly to Toronto Pearson International Airport, but Q400 production is to remain on-site until at least 2021 [emphasis added].

“We are committed to a business-as-usual approach that will see no interruption to the production, delivery and support of these outstanding aircraft,” says Longview CEO David Curtis, who took over at Viking in 1986, when both Boeing and Bombardier were getting into the Canadian aircraft business.

“With the entire de Havilland product line reunited under the same banner for the first time in decades, we look forward to working with customers, suppliers and employees upon close of the transaction to determine what opportunities lie ahead,” Curtis says in a statement on the deal.

With transfer of the C Series program to Airbus, Bombardier was looking at options for its remaining commercial aircraft business. “We decided to sell the Q400 to a better owner than us to keep the program going,” says Bombardier President and CEO Alain Bellemare. “Longview is the right owner. We know them well.”

Bombardier had entered aircraft manufacturing in 1986, when it took over unprofitable Canadair from the Canadian government, adding bankrupt U.S. business-jet-maker Learjet in 1990. The privatization of Canada’s aircraft industry also saw Boeing acquire de Havilland Canada in 1986.

Boeing went on to lose more than $1 billion at de Havilland and in 1992 agreed to sell the Toronto-based company to Bombardier and the Ontario government for $100 million. Bombardier paid $51 million of that and received $490 million in subsidies from the federal and Ontario governments.

Under Boeing, de Havilland had ended production of the DHC-6 Twin Otter and DHC-7 regional airliner, popularly known as the Dash 7. By 1992, only the Dash 8 series was in production. Bombardier added the 70-seat, high-speed Q400 version in 1995. The aircraft entered service in 2000, and only the Q400 remained in production after 2008, when manufacture of the Dash 8-100/-200/-300 was shut down.

In Victoria, Vancouver, meanwhile, Viking Air in 1983 had begun making and distributing spare parts for de Havilland for the out-of-production DHC-2 Beaver and DHC-3 Otter. The company began making assemblies for the Twin Otter before it went out of production in 1988. But in 2005, Bombardier transferred responsibility for supporting the Twin Otter to Viking.

In 2006, Viking took the next step and acquired the type certificates and manufacturing rights to all out-of-production de Havilland Canada aircraft, from the DHC-1 Chipmunk to the Dash 7. A year later, the company launched production of an updated Twin Otter, the Series 400.

Longview Aviation Capital entered the picture in 2016, when it was formed to manage a portfolio of long-term investments in the Canadian aerospace industry. Longview also is the parent company of Longview Aviation Services, established in 2016 after Viking acquired the type certificate for the Canadair CL-215 and CL-415 amphibious aircraft from Bombardier.

Longview Aviation Services has acquired a fleet of CL-215s with which it has launched the CL-4215EAF Enhanced Aerial Firefighter conversion program. The company has contracted with Canada’s Cascade Aerospace to support the conversion because of Cascade Aerospace’s experience converting CL-215s to turboprop CL-21Ts.

Other subsidiaries of Longview are an asset-management arm providing financing and leasing for aircraft manufactured and supported by Viking, and a training center operating the only Level D full-flight simulator for the Twin Otter Series 400. Acquisition of the de Havilland name suggests Longview will establish a new subsidiary around the Dash 8/Q400 program acquisition.
http://aviationweek.com/commercial-aviation/viking-air-takeover-ends-bombardier-turboprop-era

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline dapaterson

    Mostly Harmless.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 427,780
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 16,033
Re: Made in Canada military aircraft?
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2018, 15:53:24 »
If you bought Bombardier in mid-June, congratulations.  You've lost half your investment.
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline NavyShooter

    Boaty McBoatface!

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 179,601
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,895
  • Death from a Bar.....one shot, one Tequilla
Re: Made in Canada military aircraft?
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2018, 18:30:29 »
I'm smart enough to have told my investment dude (broker) to have shifted most of my equity to US based funds as soon as the village idiot got elected.  Stuff like this is exactly why.
Insert disclaimer statement here....

:panzer: