Author Topic: Transgender in the CF (merged)  (Read 93673 times)

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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Transgender in the CF (merged)
« Reply #325 on: April 30, 2016, 19:04:37 »
Good points (in reply to me) thanks.  The bathroom thing to me is dumb,  I don't care who is beside me as long as they aren't wiping crap on the walls with their hands.
Guys do awkward crap while using urinals always,  turf em all and make stalls everywhere.

Another topic but "child-models"  seems way more irresponsible to me than shared bathrooms.

But speaking about the bathroom issues if you go back aways there was a discussion which spoke to the difference between  shared bathrooms  (harmless  really) and elementary and high school change rooms and showers.  Might be an interesting read for you.
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Offline Andraste

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Re: Transgender in the CF (merged)
« Reply #326 on: April 30, 2016, 21:26:02 »
To be honest not a big fan of crap on the bathroom walls or child models  :).  My take is let kids be kids (trans or not) and if they want to sashay down the runway when they get older, that is their choice. In the meantime, let them have fun. However I feel the same way about parents who live vicariously through their children playing hockey, dancing or whatnot.  Yes, if the child has a talent, foster it, but don't make it a cult following. 

Change rooms . . . hmm . . . good question and one again where I differ from many in my community.  The bathroom thing is a hill I will die on, after all I am answering nature's call in the privacy of a shut stall as are the other ladies around me.  Change rooms . . . here is my personal take:

I am cognizant that I am physiologically male and that my presence in a women's change room would be awkward to say the least (for both the women around me and myself).  Now, I have been in coed in saunas in Europe but they (Europeans) have a different outlook on things and even so, the change rooms are still separate.  Now, if I had gone the distance (gender reassignment surgery) or even an orchiectomy (essentially a removal of the berries from the twig and berries dyad), then I would be more inclined to think the ladies vice the gents change room would be more appropriate.  At work, I still work out and an accord was reached in that a section of the male change room has been curtained off (their choice . . . not mine) to afford me privacy.  Oddly enough the men were more put out by my presence then the women so it almost ended with me in the women's change room.  I chose the men's because I was just not comfortable enough with the prospect.

Will we get to the point where men and women use communal showers . . . I think as a species it is possible but we (both genders) will have to mature a bit more before we cross that bridge.

Cheers

Andraste 

Offline Andraste

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Re: Transgender in the CF (merged)
« Reply #327 on: May 01, 2016, 08:19:16 »
I think it's your caveat that many people may have an issue with.  The physiological traits of male/female are the only clearly defined characteristics of male and female

Hi GR66,

The caveat was in response to a post where the OP posited that I was making a mockery of human life by seeing men and women as made up of only the superficial (i.e., physiology, how you appear).  My point was that I don't.  Indeed it is directly opposite of the OP's contention.  Specifically, gender is a frame of mind which has nothing to do with what nature saw fit to give you.  Some transsexuals require complete reconstructive surgery to put themselves in a good place and feel the way they were meant to be. Others require only some medical procedures and others like myself require none . . . each person's transition is particular to them and there is no one way.  When I look in the mirror I don't see a man, I see a woman who just happens to have the physiological make-up of a genetic male.  It is what nature gave me and I am quite comfortable with that.  However nature also decided to give me (for lack of a better descriptor) a brain wired "woman" not "man".

Believe me, I would love to just be who I am, a woman regardless of if I am wearing a dress or my grungy work clothes when I am cutting swath with my chainsaw.  However, as you pointed out (quite accurately) society is not quite ready to perceive a person as a person irrespective of how they dress/present/look or whatnot.  Many feel out of sorts if things don't fall within a neat binary.  So, I take great strides to present reasonably well as a woman from a physical perspective.  Now this in and of itself is a laborious process which means my work day begins at 0330 hrs.  If I could just put on a light layer of make-up and head out without all the other nausea . . . I would but unfortunately society is not quite ready.  At home, I don't do make-up, I keep my hair in a ponytail and wear comfy clothes (yoga pants, best kept secret).  Do I look female? I suppose with a smaller frame, light facial hair . . . from a distance . . . possibly.  However the kid is not pretty and she never survives first contact.  :o  :)

Cheers

Andraste
   

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Re: Transgender in the CF (merged)
« Reply #328 on: May 01, 2016, 19:00:12 »
Will we get to the point where men and women use communal showers . . .
Maybe that point should be introduced in the "Encouraging Fitness" thread.   :pop:

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Re: Transgender in the CF (merged)
« Reply #329 on: May 01, 2016, 20:27:45 »
Will we get to the point where men and women use communal showers . . .

Right after becoming a citizen requires military service in the Fleet or Mobile Infantry.

Offline Lumber

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Re: Transgender in the CF (merged)
« Reply #330 on: May 06, 2016, 13:19:03 »
Right after becoming a citizen requires military service in the Fleet or Mobile Infantry.

Not soon enough...
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Re: Transgender in the CF (merged)
« Reply #331 on: May 06, 2016, 13:47:17 »

Will we get to the point where men and women use communal showers . . . I think as a species it is possible but we (both genders) will have to mature a bit more before we cross that bridge.

Cheers

Andraste

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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Transgender in the CF (merged)
« Reply #332 on: June 11, 2016, 20:30:55 »
Interesting (older) article about a transgender mma fighter mixing it up with a female fighter.

http://www.libertynewsnow.com/transgender-female-mma-fighter-brutally-injures-female-opponent/article1545
« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 22:39:49 by Jarnhamar »
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Offline Andraste

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Re: Transgender in the CF (merged)
« Reply #333 on: June 14, 2016, 06:35:34 »
Hey Jarnharmar,

Yeah it is quite a debate but I think it was put to rest some time back. 

Fallon Fox prior to publically transitioning underwent HRT for over a year. Now the net effect of HRT is reduction of testosterone in to female levels (testosterone is what gives men your strength) this with the addition of estrogen to female levels would have reduced Fallon's body strength significantly. In essence she would have had the strength of a woman similar in size and build.  I know trans women (athletes) who prior to HRT could bench up to 280lbs with ease . . . now they are lucking to bench half that weight.  Now where her advantage would have been is bone density and size but then again a woman of similar size, bone density and fighting skill might have done just as much damage. Heck, I have fought for years and even as a guy I took some major smack downs from female sparing partners and I am quite sure if they were not holding back, they could have done significant damage.

Cheers

Andraste

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Transgender in the CF (merged)
« Reply #334 on: October 02, 2016, 09:35:16 »
I'm not sure if this is the correct place for this story. 

U of T prof who refuses to use genderless pronouns
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-friday-edition-1.3786140/i-m-not-a-bigot-meet-the-u-of-t-prof-who-refuses-to-use-genderless-pronouns-1.3786144



I found it an interesting read, specifically where he says " I don't recognize another person's right to decide what words I'm going to use".
I knew it was only a matter of time before the boaty-mc boatface crowd decided they would be referred to pronouns such as your majesty, his highness.

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Offline Altair

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Re: Transgender in the CF (merged)
« Reply #335 on: July 26, 2017, 14:50:55 »
Just asking because someone has asked, what is the Canadian Forces stance on transgenders in the showers?

Specifically transgenders who have not undergone SRS. I was talking about how we all shower in the same space and get changed in the same space, and they asked what do transgenders do, and I don't want to give out inaccurate information.
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Offline Andraste

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Re: Transgender in the CF (merged)
« Reply #338 on: July 27, 2017, 06:38:17 »
... Specifically transgenders who have not undergone SRS. I was talking about how we all shower in the same space and get changed in the same space, and they asked what do transgenders do, and I don't want to give out inaccurate information.

It really depends on the comfort level of the transgender person and those around them.  There is no official policy (yet) but this is generally approached in stages. It might surprise many to know that a very small percentage of male to female transgender people get gender confirming surgery (GCS) as it is a very invasive and painful process (Google it and there are YouTube videos in great detail). As such, many TGs are post-op their entire lives and still access the appropriate change room. What many miss out on, is that the women's change room is fundamentally different from the male change room. There is a great modicum of privacy in the women's change room with towels strategically worn, changing in the shower stalls and so on.  Whereas in the male change room everything is on display (for the most part).

I access the women's change room as a trans woman because that is where I belong. I shower, change and go about my day with no real hassles. I did not just bust in one day and say . . . I'm here, accept me . . . there was much consultation and discussion to ensure all parties dignity and respect was dealt with.

I hope this provides some insight to your question.

Cheers

Andraste

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Transgender in the CF (merged)
« Reply #339 on: August 01, 2017, 21:53:46 »
It might be an issue with other arms and services but, in the infantry, as long as they're able to pull their weight and die in heals in front of the machine guns for victory like everyone else, I really don't GAF.

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Offline NSDreamer

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Re: Transgender in the CF (merged)
« Reply #340 on: August 14, 2017, 09:42:19 »
There is no official policy (yet) but this is generally approached in stages.

 Sorry to cut in, but there is an official policy, announced in CANFORGEN 031/12 CMP 017/12 081428Z FEB 12

 CF Mil Pers Instr 01/11 Management of Transsexual Members outlays the expectations of CAF Members and management in relation to transgendered persons, dictates where the areas of responsibility lay, and who is in charge of making case by case decisions as it is important to note many transitioning cases are different.

See DWAN Link: http://cmp-cpm.mil.ca/assets/CMP_Intranet/docs/en/support/policies/cmp-milpersinstr-0111.pdf
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Offline Andraste

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Re: Transgender in the CF (merged)
« Reply #341 on: August 15, 2017, 12:20:38 »
Sorry to cut in, but there is an official policy, announced in CANFORGEN 031/12 CMP 017/12 081428Z FEB 12

Hi NSDreamer,

You are correct . . . there is an instruction but it is sorely outdated. The policy is in rewrite as we speak. I should have been a bit more specific in my response when I said "there is not policy". I was referring to specific guidelines regarding accessing gender specific spaces (e.g., bathrooms/change rooms). Right now the current instruction leaves it up to a case by case in consult with the member and the CO. Upcoming changes to the policy will have specific guidelines in keeping with current legislation on the use of gender specific spaces and transgender people.  Sorry about that  :)

Cheers

Andraste

Offline Lumber

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Re: Transgender in the CF (merged)
« Reply #342 on: August 15, 2017, 13:22:07 »
Hi NSDreamer,

You are correct . . . there is an instruction but it is sorely outdated. The policy is in rewrite as we speak. I should have been a bit more specific in my response when I said "there is not policy". I was referring to specific guidelines regarding accessing gender specific spaces (e.g., bathrooms/change rooms). Right now the current instruction leaves it up to a case by case in consult with the member and the CO. Upcoming changes to the policy will have specific guidelines in keeping with current legislation on the use of gender specific spaces and transgender people.  Sorry about that  :)

Cheers

Andraste

Andraste, quick question:

Does the term "transitioning" mean that they are transitioning surgically, or does it mean any level of transition, such as beginning to adopt the other gender's pronouns, perhaps clothing or other traditionally binary things of the opposite gender?
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Offline Andraste

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Re: Transgender in the CF (merged)
« Reply #343 on: August 15, 2017, 14:01:43 »
Andraste, quick question:

Does the term "transitioning" mean that they are transitioning surgically, or does it mean any level of transition, such as beginning to adopt the other gender's pronouns, perhaps clothing or other traditionally binary things of the opposite gender?

Hi Lumber,

I can provide you with my concept of ops but it may differ from others in the community:

Transitioning is the process of reconciling one’s gender expression with one’s internal sense of gender (gender identity).  This may include any or all of the following: (1) social transition; (2) legal transition; and (3)medical transition.

Social Transition: refers to a number of changes that can be made in a trans person's social life and situation, including: (1) use of a different name; (2) use of different gender pronouns; (3) surface changes to physical appearance (e.g., dressing in the preferred style, adopting a different hairstyle, use of make-up).

Legal Transition: refers to taking legal steps to be recognized as the target gender, including: (1) legal name change; and (2) legal change of gender maker and name on identification documents (e.g., CAF ID, passport, driver's licence).

Medical Transition: refers to medical interventions used to reconcile physical characteristics with those of the target gender. This may include hormone replacement therapy (HRT), cosmetic surgery (e.g., breast augmentation, double mastectomy) and/or gender affirming surgery (GAS).

Not all transitions are the same. Specifically, there is no checklist which you must follow in order to "transition". Some folks will socially and legally transition but never medically transition. Others might medically transition but only so far as HRT and never under GAS/GCS.

I hope this answers your question.

Cheers

Andraste

Offline Lumber

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Re: Transgender in the CF (merged)
« Reply #344 on: August 15, 2017, 14:24:07 »
Hi Lumber,

I can provide you with my concept of ops but it may differ from others in the community:

Transitioning is the process of reconciling one’s gender expression with one’s internal sense of gender (gender identity).  This may include any or all of the following: (1) social transition; (2) legal transition; and (3)medical transition.

Social Transition: refers to a number of changes that can be made in a trans person's social life and situation, including: (1) use of a different name; (2) use of different gender pronouns; (3) surface changes to physical appearance (e.g., dressing in the preferred style, adopting a different hairstyle, use of make-up).

Legal Transition: refers to taking legal steps to be recognized as the target gender, including: (1) legal name change; and (2) legal change of gender maker and name on identification documents (e.g., CAF ID, passport, driver's licence).

Medical Transition: refers to medical interventions used to reconcile physical characteristics with those of the target gender. This may include hormone replacement therapy (HRT), cosmetic surgery (e.g., breast augmentation, double mastectomy) and/or gender affirming surgery (GAS).

Not all transitions are the same. Specifically, there is no checklist which you must follow in order to "transition". Some folks will socially and legally transition but never medically transition. Others might medically transition but only so far as HRT and never under GAS/GCS.

I hope this answers your question.

Cheers

Andraste

Thanks, Andraste. It does answer my question.

I actually had an original question which was "does the CAF policy differentiate how they treat transgendered members based on whether they are pre, post, or currently transitioning", and then I realized that I had no idea what transitioning actually meant, so thank you for elaborating.
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Offline NSDreamer

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Re: Transgender in the CF (merged)
« Reply #345 on: August 15, 2017, 18:45:59 »
Hi NSDreamer,

You are correct . . . there is an instruction but it is sorely outdated. The policy is in rewrite as we speak. I should have been a bit more specific in my response when I said "there is not policy". I was referring to specific guidelines regarding accessing gender specific spaces (e.g., bathrooms/change rooms). Right now the current instruction leaves it up to a case by case in consult with the member and the CO. Upcoming changes to the policy will have specific guidelines in keeping with current legislation on the use of gender specific spaces and transgender people.  Sorry about that  :)


No worries, it is still in effect, but I imagine they are looking at a rewrite. As someone with TG folks under my command, it's certainly a tricky subject to balance everyones needs and support the member. It's harsh to say it, but it's much easier when the TG member is post OP. That being said, I've been often extremely heartened to see the level of support these members get! I've had no one come out and say a negative word, though that might be because they're worried about what I'd do to them if they did!
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Re: Transgender in the CF (merged)
« Reply #346 on: August 15, 2017, 20:05:03 »
You are correct . . . there is an instruction but it is sorely outdated. The policy is in rewrite as we speak.

An instruction outdated? In the CAF? Colour me not surprised. The transgender policy rewrite will probably be the fastest I've ever seen in my almost 2 decades of service if it is in fact in rewrite mode (which could means years away from issue).

Offline kev994

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Re: Transgender in the CF (merged)
« Reply #347 on: August 16, 2017, 07:58:12 »
For comparison, in DoD policy the transition is a state of mind, the body parts are immaterial. Someone can be fully transitioned but never get surgery.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Transgender in the CF (merged)
« Reply #348 on: August 16, 2017, 09:15:50 »
For comparison, in DoD policy the transition is a state of mind, the body parts are immaterial. Someone can be fully transitioned but never get surgery.

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