Author Topic: Transgender in the CF (merged)  (Read 122573 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline BeyondTheNow

  • Directing Staff
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 46,870
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 754
  • Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult
Re: Transgender in the CF (merged)
« Reply #400 on: June 12, 2018, 20:30:04 »

Good post, totally agree with you. My concern would be the CAF turning into a Salem - esk environment. Going through people's electronic garbage cans, so to speak.

Saving one's beliefs for after hours didn't work well in the example I gave from out east.

And it’s certainly not my intent to infer that CAF should be. My main point, however, is that regardless of what education and measures are implemented in order to condition people to understand that certain remarks/behaviours are no longer work-appropriate/permitted, there’s always the ones who feel everyone should be entitled to hear what they have to say. Those are the problem ones—the ones who can dish out their beliefs and reasons for it, but can’t handle the possibility that they might be (dare the majority think) wrong. The ones who have zero ability to understand that they’re in the midst of those who may be deeply hurt/offended by their comments, and/or they just don’t care.

We all, myself included, have probably uttered an off-the-cuff comment that some may have frowned upon. But that’s an entirely different matter from expressed, hurtful comments about deeply personal things such as, (like you mentioned) religion, sexuality, etc. Some people just don’t get it.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 20:37:42 by BeyondTheNow »
"Stop worrying about getting back to who you were before it all went wrong. To heal is to understand that the person you've since become is the one who's most capable of doing whatever it is you were put here to do."~SR

Online Daishi

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 827
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 51
Re: Transgender in the CF (merged)
« Reply #401 on: June 13, 2018, 16:48:00 »
Who cares what's between someones legs? Or what they identify as? As long as they can do the job, effectively and without being a burden to their fellow "co-workers", let whoever in. Most of the issues are with people that are uncomfortable with their own sexuality or are bigoted in command level, making decisions.

If you want to identify as a black, lesbian, unicorn (a colourful example) and pop HRT pills/injections like candy, and if the forces can reasonably handle the pressure of providing the medications, then so be it. It's where our "society" is heading. As long as they can preform the trade they are in 100%, who cares?

If they want to serve our country, that's a resource we are in short supply of. Why would you turn a candidate away based on what they want to identify as?

Offline JesseWZ

  • Mentor
  • Full Member
  • *
  • 33,270
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 442
Re: Transgender in the CF (merged)
« Reply #402 on: June 13, 2018, 18:30:22 »
Who cares what's between someones legs? Or what they identify as? As long as they can do the job, effectively and without being a burden to their fellow "co-workers", let whoever in. Most of the issues are with people that are uncomfortable with their own sexuality or are bigoted in command level, making decisions.

If you want to identify as a black, lesbian, unicorn (a colourful example) and pop HRT pills/injections like candy, and if the forces can reasonably handle the pressure of providing the medications, then so be it. It's where our "society" is heading. As long as they can preform the trade they are in 100%, who cares?

If they want to serve our country, that's a resource we are in short supply of. Why would you turn a candidate away based on what they want to identify as?

I'm going to weigh in here as a Mentor...

Daishi Have you read this entire thread? Are you currently serving? Your post history indicates you are in the recruiting process. You will learn very quickly if you complete the recruiting process and join our ranks that your experience lends you credibility. Currently, you are neither transgender, nor in the CF (I assume, so please correct me if I'm wrong...). This thread is about transgender persons experience within the CF. While I applaud your willingness to serve Canada and desire to see the CF as a reflection of Canadian Society, there is a bit more to the discussion then the CF just being able to "provide the medications". It does disservice to your argument to wash over important details, which this thread spent the last 17 pages discussing.

Finally, the CF actually does have a surplus of applicants - we are not in short supply of candidates. I agree we are not in the business of turning away a candidate based on their gender identity, but neither can we not employ some level of scrutiny to our applicants to ensure they are medically fit to carry out their assigned tasks.

In short, it would be prudent to read the whole discussion to get a sense of what the discussion is currently focused on. Then, you can add an example, anecdote, or experience, or rebut a discussion point and support your position. Otherwise, it feels a bit like virtue signalling.
I will be seen and not heard... I will be seen and not heard... I will be seen and not heard...

Offline Tcm621

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 6,405
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 627
Re: Transgender in the CF (merged)
« Reply #403 on: June 13, 2018, 21:54:07 »
“Weeding out” meaning that given the cross-section of the military (and public in general, of course) it’s reasonable, and expected, that there will be conflicting thoughts/opinions/feelings about a wide variety of subject matter. But as it’s clear that CAF is moving towards a certain expectation/direction towards inclusion, and especially given the present-day ‘Respect in CAF’ initiative/ethos, there are certain thoughts/opinions/feelings that are not suitable to be expressed/discussed in the workplace. Mostly common sense remarks that any reasonable person should understand shouldn’t be aired as common knowledge. Save that stuff for one’s friends behind closed doors or after hours or whatever.

I would like to direct your attention to section 2 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and freedoms

Quote
2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:

(a) freedom of conscience and religion;

(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;

(c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and

(d) freedom of association.

At no point in that document is a Canadian required to keep their beliefs "behind closed doors".  We are not talking about harassment or discrimination now. We are talking about beliefs and expressions of those beliefs. One should be polite and not interfere with someone in the work environment but if someone is devoutly Muslim, for example, and they believe homosexuality is forbidden by Allah should they lie when asked?

Offline BeyondTheNow

  • Directing Staff
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 46,870
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 754
  • Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult
Re: Transgender in the CF (merged)
« Reply #404 on: June 13, 2018, 22:08:38 »
I would like to direct your attention to section 2 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and freedoms

At no point in that document is a Canadian required to keep their beliefs "behind closed doors".  We are not talking about harassment or discrimination now. We are talking about beliefs and expressions of those beliefs. One should be polite and not interfere with someone in the work environment but if someone is devoutly Muslim, for example, and they believe homosexuality is forbidden by Allah should they lie when asked?

I believe I was making the point clear in my posts that I’m specifally referring to those whose comments DO fall into harassment and discrimination. Hurtful, offensive comments. If not, I’ll make that clear now. That’s what I’m talking about.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 22:11:32 by BeyondTheNow »
"Stop worrying about getting back to who you were before it all went wrong. To heal is to understand that the person you've since become is the one who's most capable of doing whatever it is you were put here to do."~SR

Offline serenamorrowind

  • Guest
  • *
  • 1,135
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 22
Re: Transgender in the CF (merged)
« Reply #405 on: June 14, 2018, 14:11:53 »
Discussion is digressing, as expression beliefs/opinions vs safe work environment is more general separate topic.

I've been friends with individuals whom I often disagree with topics, and even disagree with certain aspects of each other, yet we still get along base on actions, character, mutual respect, able to work together professionally and other contexts even if not personally. Short from advocating/agreeing/believing violence on other people base on certain aspects of who they are or their politics...there is no point shutting down someone, unfriend or terminate or discriminate or what have you base one or two thing you disagree, or base on who they voted.

It comes a point though, that once you achieve mutual respect and working well well together professionally, do not want to jeopardize that. So refrain from saying or doing things, else risk uncomfortable working environment, if not for them, then for yourself.

Anyway. I am in the recruitment process, and not in the CF at present.

Offline Jarnhamar

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 251,256
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,904
Re: Transgender in the CF (merged)
« Reply #406 on: June 14, 2018, 16:00:04 »
Quote from: Tcm621
At no point in that document is a Canadian required to keep their beliefs "behind closed doors".  We are not talking about harassment or discrimination now. We are talking about beliefs and expressions of those beliefs. One should be polite and not interfere with someone in the work environment but if someone is devoutly Muslim, for example, and they believe homosexuality is forbidden by Allah should they lie when asked?

Except today you may very well need to keep your beliefs to yourself if you want to keep your job. The CAF especially included.

Quote from: BeyondTheNow
Hurtful, offensive comments.

The threshold for what's offensive these days seems pretty low.


There are no wolves on Fenris

Offline Tcm621

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 6,405
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 627
Re: Transgender in the CF (merged)
« Reply #407 on: June 17, 2018, 16:37:28 »
I believe I was making the point clear in my posts that I’m specifally referring to those whose comments DO fall into harassment and discrimination. Hurtful, offensive comments. If not, I’ll make that clear now. That’s what I’m talking about.

As long as we are making a distinction between the expression of one's belief and using those beliefs to justify harassment and/or discrimination, I think we are on the same page.