Author Topic: AF beret + Metal Capbadge  (Read 21784 times)

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Offline Neoupa2002

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AF beret + Metal Capbadge
« on: October 26, 2008, 21:53:36 »
I have a problem. After searching the forums for an answer, I couldn't find one for my question.
Do I poke holes in the board of the beret so that my metal capbadge stays on or do I do something else? ???
note: I have a Parkhurst AF beret and a metal RC(air)AC capbadge.

Offline Dimsum

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Re: AF beret + Metal Capbadge
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2008, 22:37:55 »
If I remember correctly, you could poke holes in the cardboard bit of the beret.  Unless dress regs have changed though, why would an Air Cadet need a beret?
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Offline Neoupa2002

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Re: AF beret + Metal Capbadge
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2008, 22:53:08 »
I need the Beret for my Combats (the outdated version). It's the so called mandatory headress with the combats.

Offline Breacher41

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Re: AF beret + Metal Capbadge
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2008, 23:14:16 »
AFAIK and remember the Beret is NOT part of the Air Cadet dress regs, thus NOT mandatory.

Who ever said it was mandatory needs to get their facts straight.
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Offline Neoupa2002

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Re: AF beret + Metal Capbadge
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2008, 23:29:47 »
In the books it says it's not mandatory but according to my CO, wear a beret or don't wear the combats.
Anyways, anyone know if I should poke holes through the beret "board" or not?

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Re: AF beret + Metal Capbadge
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2008, 23:33:36 »
I'll stay out of the mandatory dress discussion, but yes you can poke holes through the beret board. 
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

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Offline Neoupa2002

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Re: AF beret + Metal Capbadge
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2008, 23:35:10 »
Ok, Thanks!

Offline gwp

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Re: AF beret + Metal Capbadge
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2008, 03:32:17 »
In the books it says it's not mandatory but according to my CO, wear a beret or don't wear the combats.
Anyways, anyone know if I should poke holes through the beret "board" or not?
Your CO cannot mandate that you must purchase a piece of non-issue kit. i.e. OG 107 or a beret.  The authorized headdress with OG107 field dress is a wedge or beret.  However, as the beret is not issued, there no authority for anyone to mandate its wear, unless of course the local sponsor purchases berets with non-public funds for those cadets who have acquired OG107.

"Cadets are authorized to wear the OG107 uniform during sqn survival exercises when authorized by the sqn CO. Headdress (the wedge or blue beret with the Air Cadet hat insignia, wide-brimmed tan summer hat or toque) and cadet rank slip-ons shall be worn with the OG107 uniform."

Offline CountDC

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Re: AF beret + Metal Capbadge
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2008, 09:06:24 »
Your CO cannot mandate that you must purchase a piece of non-issue kit. i.e. OG 107 or a beret.  The authorized headdress with OG107 field dress is a wedge or beret.  However, as the beret is not issued, there no authority for anyone to mandate its wear, unless of course the local sponsor purchases berets with non-public funds for those cadets who have acquired OG107.

"Cadets are authorized to wear the OG107 uniform during sqn survival exercises when authorized by the sqn CO. Headdress (the wedge or blue beret with the Air Cadet hat insignia, wide-brimmed tan summer hat or toque) and cadet rank slip-ons shall be worn with the OG107 uniform."

ummm - CO Cannot mandate that they purchase the kit but he/she can direct what order of dress will be worn thus wear a beret or don't wear the combats is a valid directive. It is the members choice to buy the beret because they want the CO to authorize them to wear combats.
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Re: AF beret + Metal Capbadge
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2008, 14:52:42 »
IIRC, the AF Blue berets are available for the CCM through Logistik Unicorps as well.  If the CO is "paying" for the beret, it is well within his right to tell you to wear it.
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Offline gwp

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Re: AF beret + Metal Capbadge
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2008, 16:37:36 »
IIRC, the AF Blue berets are available for the CCM through Logistik Unicorps as well.  If the CO is "paying" for the beret, it is well within his right to tell you to wear it.
Confirmed by the RCSU HQ that berets are not on the scale of issue for air cadets.  The blue beret is not available through the supply system for cadets. They must be purchased privately with non-public funds.  The CO of a cadet corps can hold no money except a petty cash float that belongs to the sponsor. For a CO to deny a cadet participation because he does not have a beret, or does not have OG107 is not what the program is about.   
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 16:50:05 by gwp »

Offline Barts

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Re: AF beret + Metal Capbadge
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2008, 02:17:12 »
...For a CO to deny a cadet participation because he does not have a beret, or does not have OG107 is not what the program is about.   

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I saw nothing about the CO denying participation.  I saw the CO denying authority to wear OG107 without a beret.

Offline CountDC

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Re: AF beret + Metal Capbadge
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2008, 07:56:36 »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I saw nothing about the CO denying participation.  I saw the CO denying authority to wear OG107 without a beret.

dang - beat me to it.   ;D
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Offline gwp

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Re: AF beret + Metal Capbadge
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2008, 00:42:52 »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I saw nothing about the CO denying participation.  I saw the CO denying authority to wear OG107 without a beret.
Then what's the point?  Cadet Corps Squadron COs have very few sanctions wrt cadets.  To deny a cadet advancement in the corps/squadron, participation in an exercise/activity, canteen privileges, require extra duties, because a cadet is not able or willing to purchase kit that is not provided is not only unfair it is unconscionable. Wearing the issued wedge with OG107 cadet field dress is authorized and appropriate.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 00:45:55 by gwp »

Offline CountDC

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Re: AF beret + Metal Capbadge
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2008, 08:06:34 »
Then what's the point?  Cadet Corps Squadron COs have very few sanctions wrt cadets.  To deny a cadet advancement in the corps/squadron, participation in an exercise/activity, canteen privileges, require extra duties, because a cadet is not able or willing to purchase kit that is not provided is not only unfair it is unconscionable. Wearing the issued wedge with OG107 cadet field dress is authorized and appropriate.

The point is that the CO authorizes the order of dress. If he/she does not authorize the member to wear OG107 then the member is not allowed to wear it.  This CO has determined that the members will only wear this order of dress with the beret.  There is no mention of denying advancement, participation, priivileges or assigning extra duties. If the member is not able or willing to purchase the beret then they have deal with the fact that they will not wear the field dress.

Did you even read the quote from Bart??  Have to ask as you quote him and then go on about denying all these things when he clearly stated the only thing denied is the authority to wear OG107 without beret.
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Offline gwp

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Re: AF beret + Metal Capbadge
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2008, 15:35:55 »
The point is that the CO authorizes the order of dress. If he/she does not authorize the member to wear OG107 then the member is not allowed to wear it.  This CO has determined that the members will only wear this order of dress with the beret.  There is no mention of denying advancement, participation, priivileges or assigning extra duties. If the member is not able or willing to purchase the beret then they have deal with the fact that they will not wear the field dress.  Did you even read the quote from Bart??  Have to ask as you quote him and then go on about denying all these things when he clearly stated the only thing denied is the authority to wear OG107 without beret.

The CO cannot properly deny wearing OG107 by any individual cadet while wearing a wedge rather than a beret.  Perhaps the field dress was acquired at no cost to the family of the cadet and they do not have the ability or desire to purchase a beret.  The authorized dress is the wedge.
 
The CO of a Cadet Corps/Squadron does not authorize the components of any order of dress. The dress regulations say that it is authorized to wear either a beret or wedge with cadet field dress.  As the beret is not an issue item, wearing the wedge is authorized and wearing a beret which is not an issued item is optional but cannot be demanded.
 
The bottom line is no cadet can be forced to purchase or acquire non-issue kit whether it be field dress or any non-issue accountrement.    Any parent of a cadet who came home and said that the CO was "demanding" cadets acquire or purchase non-issue kit or denying the wear of a combination of authorized non-issue and issue kit would properly raise the matter to a higher level. 
« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 23:34:51 by gwp »

Offline CPL. Lampert A.

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Re: AF beret + Metal Capbadge
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2008, 14:27:21 »
As i am aware of, for the combat uniform you can either wear the barrett or wedge while in full combats. That is of course you have the combat setup, other wise you cannot wear the barrett or wedge considering you are not in uniform and presumably you would be in civillian attire while you are at the Field exercise.

I do agree it is not mandatory for the barrett to be worn, but (I think) it looks better with the combats. Aswell some army units do issue it and aswell it is issued at some CFB's so it depends if your unit supplies the uniform, if they do I would presume it would become a mandatory part (if they issue it) otherwise it wouldnt be mandatory but probably prefered.
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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: AF beret + Metal Capbadge
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2008, 16:10:22 »
As i am aware of, for the combat uniform you can either wear the barrett or wedge while in full combats. That is of course you have the combat setup, other wise you cannot wear the barrett or wedge considering you are not in uniform and presumably you would be in civillian attire while you are at the Field exercise.

I do agree it is not mandatory for the barrett to be worn, but (I think) it looks better with the combats. Aswell some army units do issue it and aswell it is issued at some CFB's so it depends if your unit supplies the uniform, if they do I would presume it would become a mandatory part (if they issue it) otherwise it wouldnt be mandatory but probably prefered.

I kinda like these barretts http://www.porterhousecrafts.com/cgi-bin/clerk/giftfind.cgi?uniquegift=hair+barrett, although I'm not sure whether they should be mandatory, especially when wearing a beret.
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Offline CountDC

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Re: AF beret + Metal Capbadge
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2008, 14:07:46 »
The CO cannot properly deny wearing OG107 by any individual cadet while wearing a wedge rather than a beret.  Perhaps the field dress was acquired at no cost to the family of the cadet and they do not have the ability or desire to purchase a beret.  The authorized dress is the wedge.
 
The CO of a Cadet Corps/Squadron does not authorize the components of any order of dress. The dress regulations say that it is authorized to wear either a beret or wedge with cadet field dress.  As the beret is not an issue item, wearing the wedge is authorized and wearing a beret which is not an issued item is optional but cannot be demanded.
 
The bottom line is no cadet can be forced to purchase or acquire non-issue kit whether it be field dress or any non-issue accountrement.    Any parent of a cadet who came home and said that the CO was "demanding" cadets acquire or purchase non-issue kit or denying the wear of a combination of authorized non-issue and issue kit would properly raise the matter to a higher level. 

The CO does auth the ORDER OF DRESS which means he/she can say you are not authorized to wear OG107.

Quote from CATO 55-04 (16) (e) ...Cadets are authorized to wear the OG107 uniform during sqn survival exercises when authorized by the sqn CO...

Parents can complain to a higher level and hopefully that higher level would inform them that the approved order of dress is up to the CO of that sqn. If push came to shove the CO can simply state that OG107 will not be worn by any member of the Sqn. By the way - berets are under $20 new, probably $5 at surplus - don't know of any family that can not come up with that if they really wanted to.
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Offline Strike

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Re: AF beret + Metal Capbadge
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2008, 15:06:47 »
If the OG107 is issued by the unit and the CO mandates that berets shall be worn then the unit should be purchasing said headdress.  Period, end of story.  If the cadet has decided to purchase their own set of combats because they are not issued by the unit then the cadet should spend the money and buy a beret, which the CO has said shall be worn with the uniform.

Note that any clothing that is deemed mandatory by a unit should be paid for by that unit.  This is the whole basis of the cadet organization -- no exclusion because of a family's financial status/situation.
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Offline CountDC

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Re: AF beret + Metal Capbadge
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2008, 15:43:29 »
If the OG107 is issued by the unit and the CO mandates that berets shall be worn then the unit should be purchasing said headdress.  Period, end of story.
you forgot the IMO at the beginning.  There is absolutely zero dictating that the CO has to purchase the kit from unit funds.  Even if the unit issued the OG107, the CO can still say I will only authorize you to wear it if you meet this requirement ie wear a beret with it.

  If the cadet has decided to purchase their own set of combats because they are not issued by the unit then the cadet should spend the money and buy a beret, which the CO has said shall be worn with the uniform.
again the IMO.  If the CO wants to be nice s/he can purchase from unit funds berets for every member that acquires a set of OG107s.

Note that any clothing that is deemed mandatory by a unit should be paid for by that unit.  This is the whole basis of the cadet organization -- no exclusion because of a family's financial status/situation.

and again the IMO on the clothing. Should the unit have to buy your dress pants, shirts and ties - all authorized dress in place of uniform - if you choose to wear it.  The only thing 100% right is no exclusion because of family status/situation. Find a family that has a member in Air Cadets that could not come up with the money for a beret if they really wanted to.  Also the member is not told they cannot participate, thus excluded - they are told they are not authorized to wear an order of dress.

All that being said - IMO a nice CO would offer to purchase the beret if making it a requirement to wear the OG107.
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Offline Strike

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Re: AF beret + Metal Capbadge
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2008, 16:16:22 »
There is no IMO required because

Quote
This is the whole basis of the cadet organization -- no exclusion because of a family's financial status/situation.

Therefore any order of dress that is NOT issued by the unit cannot be a mandatory piece of kit to have.

THEREFORE:

Quote
If the OG107 is issued by the unit and the CO mandates that berets shall be worn then the unit should be purchasing said headdress.

There is a HUGE difference between authorized kit and mandatory kit.

It is the same as saying that fleece touques are authorized for wear by res/res pers while in the field.  That means you can go out and buy one and wear it.  But if it was manadted that thou shalt wear a fleece touque, then one will be issued to you.
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Offline gwp

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Re: AF beret + Metal Capbadge
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2008, 02:13:55 »
The CO does auth the ORDER OF DRESS which means he/she can say you are not authorized to wear OG107.

Quote from CATO 55-04 (16) (e) ...Cadets are authorized to wear the OG107 uniform during sqn survival exercises when authorized by the sqn CO...
Correct but that is not what was being discussed. It was understood that OG107 was authorized to be worn the question was whether the CO could mandate a non-issue optional headdress (requiring the cadet to purchase it) in place of the issued wedge.

Quote
Parents can complain to a higher level and hopefully that higher level would inform them that the approved order of dress is up to the CO of that sqn. If push came to shove the CO can simply state that OG107 will not be worn by any member of the Sqn.
Also correct, but counterproductive and a huge dissatisfier amongst the cadets who have acquired a cadet Field Training Uniform (FTU). The higher authorty would also inform the parent that purchasing cadet FTU and the beret for air cadets is optional and for air cadets the issue wedge is appropriate in FTU. 

Quote
By the way - berets are under $20 new, probably $5 at surplus - don't know of any family that can not come up with that if they really wanted to.

Not a certainty at all. What makes the cadet program unique is that cadets come from all strata of society and the participants can succeed on their own terms regardless of their station in life.   In fact you will have well off parents complain that the CO cannot demand the purchase of non-issue kit just as you will have lesser financially able cadets be embarrased that such a demand is not acheivable.

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« Last Edit: November 04, 2008, 02:36:57 by gwp »

Offline CountDC

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Re: AF beret + Metal Capbadge
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2008, 08:26:50 »
Correct but that is not what was being discussed. It was understood that OG107 was authorized to be worn the question was whether the CO could mandate a non-issue optional headdress (requiring the cadet to purchase it) in place of the issued wedge.
No - it was understood that OG107 was authorized IF the member had a beret to wear with it. CO as the authority for the order of dress can require that you meet certain criteria. 

Also correct, but counterproductive and a huge dissatisfier amongst the cadets who have acquired a cadet Field Training Uniform (FTU). The higher authorty would also inform the parent that purchasing cadet FTU and the beret for air cadets is optional and for air cadets the issue wedge is appropriate in FTU. 
The higher HQ should also inform them that they should have checked with the sqn first to ensure that it was authorized kit there and the requirements that had to be met prior to acquiring optional kit. If you do not check the unit regulations then the only one to be dissatisfied with is yourself.

Not a certainty at all. What makes the cadet program unique is that cadets come from all strata of society and the participants can succeed on their own terms regardless of their station in life.   In fact you will have well off parents complain that the CO cannot demand the purchase of non-issue kit just as you will have lesser financially able cadets be embarrased that such a demand is not acheivable.
and the answer is - the CO did not demand the purchase - he gave the option.

When something is given as an option if authorized by the CO then the CO gets to set the requirements for that option.  Not saying this particular COs policy is fair or that I agree with it.  Am pointing out that it is within the COs power according to the existing regulations.  If members/parents have a problem with this then they should certainly voice it but understand that ultimately it is up to the CO as the authority for unit order of dress.
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Offline CountDC

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Re: AF beret + Metal Capbadge
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2008, 09:17:34 »
There is no IMO required because

Therefore any order of dress that is NOT issued by the unit cannot be a mandatory piece of kit to have.

THEREFORE:

There is a HUGE difference between authorized kit and mandatory kit.

It is the same as saying that fleece touques are authorized for wear by res/res pers while in the field.  That means you can go out and buy one and wear it.  But if it was manadted that thou shalt wear a fleece touque, then one will be issued to you.

and where has this kit been made mandatory?  If the CO had said you will wear OG107 and you will wear it with beret then the argument is valid. The CO has not said you must wear OG107 - s/he has said IF you want me to authorize you to wear this optional kit then you will need this optional kit to go with it.  Still all optional - don't want to acquire the beret then wear your regular issued kit.

The fleece touque for res - same thing - you can wear it IF authorized by the CO.  The CO can (and it has been done in the past) state that none issued kit will not be used. These days most COs do realize that an individuals comfort in the field is the main priority but in the past they tended to stick to the uniformity rule - everyone wears it or no one does. Really sucked in minus 20 wearing a beret because someone forgot their touque.

The reality is the regulations state the CO is the AUTHORITY for the wearing of OG107 at their sqn. The CO can then set requirements in order for them to issue that authority. By the original poster this CO was smart enough to keep everything as an option.

Not saying I agree with the COs policy, just that it is within the COs power according to current regulations. IMO if the CO wanted to set a standard of dress then it should have been the Wedge as it is an issued item that everyone has.
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Re: AF beret + Metal Capbadge
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2008, 13:31:43 »
and where has this kit been made mandatory?  If the CO had said you will wear OG107 and you will wear it with beret then the argument is valid. The CO has not said you must wear OG107 - s/he has said IF you want me to authorize you to wear this optional kit then you will need this optional kit to go with it.  Still all optional - don't want to acquire the beret then wear your regular issued kit.

CountDC,

Sorry, but this is where the pilot in me kicks in.  When you use the word will, then you are giving an order.  You would have been better served wording it this way:  "If the CO has said you are allowed (iow, authorized) to wear OG107, you will wear it with the beret."

When you follow it up with your next sentence you end up contradicting yourself by saying the CO has not said you must wear it.  In your previous sentence that is exactly what has been said.

I live my life by checklists where there is a huge and very important difference between "will" and "may".  It may be semantics to others but not me.  Sorry about being so tight on this.  Maybe that's why I flew of the handle a bit.
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Offline CountDC

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Re: AF beret + Metal Capbadge
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2008, 13:40:17 »
CountDC,

Sorry, but this is where the pilot in me kicks in.  When you use the word will, then you are giving an order.  You would have been better served wording it this way:  "If the CO has said you are allowed (iow, authorized) to wear OG107, you will wear it with the beret."

When you follow it up with your next sentence you end up contradicting yourself by saying the CO has not said you must wear it.  In your previous sentence that is exactly what has been said.

I live my life by checklists where there is a huge and very important difference between "will" and "may".  It may be semantics to others but not me.  Sorry about being so tight on this.  Maybe that's why I flew of the handle a bit.

read the whole thing and go back through the prior posts  -not contradicting. 

first sentence I am saying "IF the CO had said you will" as in IF the CO had ordered then the argument is valid. 

second sentence I am pointing out that in the case in question the CO has not done this but left the option open.

The way you have worded it is what the CO in this thread has said which corresponds to the second sentence and makes the argument invalid.  Wording semantics is actually what is driving this thread and as a clerk I look carefully at those little words in the regulations while others run off personal opinions.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2008, 13:58:09 by CountDC »
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Offline g_star15

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Re: AF beret + Metal Capbadge
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2009, 14:45:18 »
I have a question. Does anyone know where to get capbrass's from?, because i am looking for the MP cap brass and i cant find it.

Offline NFLD Sapper

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Re: AF beret + Metal Capbadge
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2009, 14:49:33 »
If its for cadets, then ask through your local unit.
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Offline Bomb Disposal Bob

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Re: AF beret + Metal Capbadge
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2012, 18:19:48 »
Your CO cannot mandate that you must purchase a piece of non-issue kit. i.e. OG 107 or a beret.  The authorized headdress with OG107 field dress is a wedge or beret.  However, as the beret is not issued, there no authority for anyone to mandate its wear, unless of course the local sponsor purchases berets with non-public funds for those cadets who have acquired OG107.

"Cadets are authorized to wear the OG107 uniform during sqn survival exercises when authorized by the sqn CO. Headdress (the wedge or blue beret with the Air Cadet hat insignia, wide-brimmed tan summer hat or toque) and cadet rank slip-ons shall be worn with the OG107 uniform."

AF Berets can be issued. Just go to your Supplies Officer down at the QM, and ask them to order a beret. They will fill out an order from Logistiks and get them shipped it. And little known fact you can also wear berets with your DU's.
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Re: AF beret + Metal Capbadge
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2012, 21:55:37 »
Quote
AF Berets can be issued purchased. Just go to your Supplies Officer down at the QM, and ask them to order where to purchase an AF blue  beret. They will fill out an order from Logistiks and get them shipped it. And little known fact you can also wear berets with your DU's. 

Fixed that for you.

AF berets for Air Cadets are not issued at the LHQ.  They are optional for wear with OG 107's and so therfore can be purchased from a CANEX or sites like Joe Drouin.  Berets are NOT authorized for wear with any other part of the uniform except Cadet Field Uniform as noted in CATO 55-04 para E.


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