Author Topic: Profs say students lack maturity, feel entitled  (Read 66861 times)

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Offline leroi

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Re: Profs say students lack maturity, feel entitled
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2009, 23:32:48 »
Well, how's this for a different spin...let's talk about those who are answering the question. No one has mentioned anything about the profs themselves (other than the comments by Another Mom).

Now I'm not assuming that teachers are perfect, because we're not, but universities and profs are not untouchable either. I can remember some good ones, but also some not so good ones. There were some that were completely out of touch with reality and what was going on around them.

This is one of the key issues out there, especially for us in the educational community. The world around us is changing, and at times changing more quickly than we can adapt to it. Balancing fundamentals and the new reality is tough, and only going to get tougher. I've shown the following video to both my students and some of my colleagues. This is what we're dealing with here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpEnFwiqdx8

ex-Sup, I don't think anyone here would blame teachers for any of these educational woes. 
 
You are absolutely right about professors; we have a few at Guelph that are right out to lunch. (A couple of them are the subject of topics here at Army.ca  ;D)

Excellent Youtube video--demonstrates just what an accelerated culture we live in.


« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 00:11:34 by leroi »

Offline JimMorrison19

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Re: Profs say students lack maturity, feel entitled
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2009, 00:50:59 »
When I read the comments to the original story, I was struck by how many people said "Bring back Grade 13."  Is Ontario's curriculum so poor that another year of school is required?  I know New Brunswick has one of the best in the country, maybe that's why we were better prepared.  ;)  IMHO, I don't think the extra year (in age or school) would change the sense of entitlement.*

Totally agree with you there.

*Edit to add:  It would be interesting to know the demographics of the students as I'm sure they're probably not all from Ontario.

This is strange to me. For a long time I had thought that our system here was quite horrible, but my school may have been an exception, and it may not actually have been the curriculum. I can remember hearing about how the 120 Advanced Math and Calculus class supposedly didn't cover enough up-to-date info, so when most people went and applied to university they ended up taking Pre-Calculus courses there in order to know everything they needed. I think this was a load of crap - students were just making up nonsense about the teachers or the curriculum to cover the fact that they got wasted every weekend instead of studying (myself included, sometimes).

Looking back on it though, we really did have some wicked teachers; my physics teacher was ultimately the person who turned me onto the path with the way he taught.
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Offline Signalman150

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Re: Profs say students lack maturity, feel entitled
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2009, 01:54:09 »
Oh boy; where do I start?

No, it's not about grade 13; I was educated in a province where no such thing ever existed, and I teach in a another province where the same applies. No, it's not about lousy profs, and yes; I'm well aware there are many. It's about students who know they don't need to strain themselves to pass high school; it's about a generation of parents (my generation, by the way) who decided their children were the best and the brightest, and if the fool teachers didn't know that, they'd quickly set them to rights.

I instruct at an institute of technology. I've been doing it for two years and I love it.  I have some wonderful, talented and highly motivated students in my class; they make it fun to get up every day. In return I work hard to make sure I'm on top of my game every time I walk into a class. That has an affect on about one third of my students. Then there's the third who come in, sit down, cross their arms and defy me to teach them something. They haven't yet gotten past the high school mentality that the teacher is out to get them and ruin their lives.  I've had some success winning a few of them over, but it is--as they say--a tough slog.

Then there is the other third; now they're an interesting bunch.  They attend occasionally, often dropping off assignments in my mailbox to avoid having to come to class. The assignments they DO submit are amazing. Some of them are cribbed directly off the net, some are copied word-for-word from classmates, and some show the enthusiastic zeal of a somnambulistic slug. But, when they get their grade...oh my; do they ever come to life!

Cries of "my mother wants to talk to the program chair" ring through the halls. Then they discover the problem with no longer being a "student", but an "adult learner". If they are over 18 years of age, FOIP does not allow us to disclose anything of a personal nature to the parents, much less discuss it. For the first time in their lives these people realize that they have to be responsible for themselves, and it really doesn't matter how charming and talented and bright mom or dad thinks they are. It's a bitter blow.

And don't even think of laying this at the feet of the teachers in high school.  They have been given their marching orders from a provincial education ministry that will not allow them to discipline or fail a student. The government here has a program called the "Reluctant Zero". It's based on the idea that even if a student did NADA, they deserve a mark.  So, there is reason for these students feel entitled. (In case you missed it, I just removed the blame from the students; they are NOT lazy, they have merely adapted to the system). Most school teachers try as hard as they can, but if the student knows their are no consequences, why bother putting in all that effort? At their age, I would have felt precisely the same way.

One last observation, and I will cease ranting. I teach a particular subject that requires basic math skills.  At the beginning of the semester I gave my students a ten question quiz.  My intent was to have them do the quiz, then, after they all aced it, I would tell them they were ready for the final exam. It really wasn't an exaggeration;the course requires basic problem solving skills, and the ability to calculate perimeter, area, volume and averages. The marks I got back ranged from 0 to 7.

They were taught in junior high and high school, but were never required to LEARN. And--after all--if they didn't learn it, mom or dad would intervene, give the teacher a blast of crap, and they'd get a passing grade.

If anything is going to change, it will HAVE to be at the legislative level, and most certainly at the family level. My humble and profuse apologies for rambling on so.
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Offline leroi

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Re: Profs say students lack maturity, feel entitled
« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2009, 02:25:34 »
Excellent post.

Teachers and Professors and Instructors are hamstrung by the system.
I have friends who teach and have collapsed on my doorstep with the most ludicrous stories about their own school boards not standing up for them when they try to do the right thing for a student.

I'm taking a university course at the moment after many years being away and am surprised at the lack of respect for the Professor. At first class he asked students to respect a couple of rules: 1) Cell phones and electronic gadgets off; and 2) arrive on time for lecture. Neither of these were observed.

Some students sautered in and out of class at leisure; it was very distracting for him and the class.

I have the utmost respect for teachers; it's not an easy job. 

Offline Another Mom

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Re: Profs say students lack maturity, feel entitled
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2009, 03:01:21 »
Just to clarify, I never commented about the quality of professors and I don't think anyone here said this was about "lousy" profs.  I was commenting on a "System" where there are too many students in impersonal classes. I am sure committed profs do not want to teach in that system as committed students do not want to learn that way.

There is an undergraduate college in the US that does not give out grades at all; feedback is qualitative.  Students work to learn, not for grades. Interestingly, that college has the highest proportion of students that eventually go on to doctoral work. I think students who can't cut it, just  transfer.

Perhaps we need more alternatives for young people who really do not want to go the academic route and are wasting everyone's time.   But then, I guess the students that work only for grades in school,  turn out to be the same ones who work at a job only for the money.  Sad.

When I taught at our local Univ, I have to say I was shocked at the admin's apparent fear of getting sued by failed students. Those students didn't seem very bright, though  and I don't they could have learned the material by anyone requiring them to learn it.

Offline ballz

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Re: Profs say students lack maturity, feel entitled
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2009, 04:43:42 »
There is an undergraduate college in the US that does not give out grades at all; feedback is qualitative.  Students work to learn, not for grades.

That may work for artsy fartsy stuff, but I would never hire an engineer, mathematician, scientist (take your pick), or accountant that came out of that school. I certainly wouldn't let a doctor that came out of that system cut me open either.

Perhaps we need more alternatives for young people who really do not want to go the academic route and are wasting everyone's time.

Alternatives are already out there, just not in the form of a post-secondary institution, because they don't belong there. We all know plenty of people with little formal education that are doing just dandy. I think the education system changing to accommodate these said people is what's leading to complaints outlined in article.
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Offline hotei

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Re: Profs say students lack maturity, feel entitled
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2009, 06:40:01 »
Quote from: Another Mom
But then, I guess the students that work only for grades in school,  turn out to be the same ones who work at a job only for the money.  Sad.

While my opinions and experiences are merely anecdotal, I would like to point out that at least in my case, this statement does not hold true. grades are precisely what I worked for in school. I, quite literally, craved the 'A's and 90%+ marks. I did that through grade school, high school and university and eventually led me to graduate as one of the top students in the province.

What did I end up doing after I left university for many moons?

Farm work. Not exactly your six-figure job (unless you count the zeroes after the decimal place), and it wasn't a family business. I would often work extra hours, not because it paid (because it didn't), but because it gave me skills and opportunities I mightn't have had otherwise. I had a drive to succeed, because there were no more 'A's or 90%+ marks to be had, and money is no indicator of happiness. At the end of the day, I was exhausted, paid only minimum wage, but had the time of my life and learned a tremendous amount.

On top of this, it has been my experience that those who are "after the money" are often those who are driven to do the least amount of work possible, both in work and school. I don't see too many people who work their butts off throughout school, and expect to coast after that.

Quote
Perhaps we need more alternatives for young people who really do not want to go the academic route and are wasting everyone's time.

This quote really confused me. I don't think our society needs more strata of bureaucracy and red tape, especially when we already have established systems to deal with people who do not wish to pursue academic achievement. Trade schools (though I believe even they are drifting outside of their mandate with programs for such things as diplomas in food service that amount to little more than a SmartServe certification and a job posting at Tim Horton's), apprenticeships, or even my method: going off into the community and knocking on doors. The latter will often yield not only job opportunities, but a greater involvement in one's community (a priceless thing, to be sure).

Quote
Just to clarify, I never commented about the quality of professors and I don't think anyone here said this was about "lousy" profs.  I was commenting on a "System" where there are too many students in impersonal classes. I am sure committed profs do not want to teach in that system as committed students do not want to learn that way.

I respectfully disagree. Not because all teachers or professors are bad, but they themselves are a product of the system they serve.

I can't count the number of professors I have had that essentially goofed off while working. I had one professor who often didn't show up for class. I had another who gave a hundred plus pages of reading for a week for an exam that consisted of 10 multiple choice questions that were often about inconsequential material. I even recall one professor who was fired from one of my universities who offered a guaranteed 70% to anyone who promised not to show up to any more classes. This doesn't even begin to count the number of classes I hve had that have been nearly exclusively taught by a TA who knew less about the lesson of the day than the students.

It is my belief that education has become a commodity, to be researched, manufactured, marketed, packaged, bought, sold and it really wouldn't surprise me if, when one turned education over, there was a sticker that said "Made in China". I need only point to enrolment levels in criminology programs in universities and colleges when CSI was popular. Likewise after Jurassic Park came out, palaeontology majors sky rocketed. It was the same with archaeology and Indiana Jones, or to bring it closer to home, the USAF with Top Gun.

All of this, however revolves around my belief that much of the blame rests squarely on the shoulders of the face in the mirror. Too often people say that they are "too busy" for their family duties. These are people who show poor time management skills, and try to buy their way into familial success.

Contrast this with my own anecdotal evidence: my mother, a single woman (by choice), who attended university (before I was born) and took correspondence courses after I was born (imagine that, not bringing your screaming child into classes -- it has happened). She worked fulltime as well, and yet still managed to write a note in my lunch, or take me to sports, or smack my butt raw if I stepped out of line (and I did, and she did ;D)

I believe our undoing is not the schools, or the children, but the relationship that our culture seems to think is not only normal but healthy to maintain with your children. Fix that, and I believe we'd all see a big jump in normalcy.

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Re: Profs say students lack maturity, feel entitled
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2009, 08:02:31 »
I don't think that anyone can convince me that having five years of high school will make a student "ready" for university.   There are people at 16 who can look after themselves and others (my daughter babysitting her younger sisters comes to mind) and people at 25 who can't do their own laundry or prepare a simple meal that doesn't come frozen in a box.  Everyone matures at different rates. 

Maybe not letting a child start school at the age of five (or four) when they obviously aren't ready would make a difference.  I know I was one of those (birthday in March) that turned six before the kindergarten year ended.  In my class we had a girl who turned five just before the end of the year who still sucked her thumb.  Imagine my indignation to be in the same class as a "baby"!
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Offline ex-Sup

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Re: Profs say students lack maturity, feel entitled
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2009, 08:24:27 »
Teachers and Professors and Instructors are hamstrung by the system.
This is the crux of the issue. Just like when I was in the reserves, I get orders and I have to follow them. Whether it be curriculum or assessment and evaluation, I do what the Ministry of Ed tells me. It doesn't matter what I think, or if I like it or not; the system is what it is. Probably the biggest issue out there (I see it discussed a lot as a dept head) is the gov't decision years back to get rid of late marks and frown on giving zeros. As an educator I can see the rationale, but it has created huge problems. Kids aren't dumb, they figure things out quite quickly. Some are brutal for handing things in, and especially with my applied class, if I don't hound them, some wouldn't hand anything in and they would all fail (the powers that be would be very unhappy). There is a revised document coming out in Sept and we are all hoping it addresses these concerns.
1) Cell phones and electronic gadgets off; and 2) arrive on time for lecture.
Some are literally addicted; they cannot go a few minutes without texting. It has become a huge problem. With the lates, most of the problem stems from home. Some of these kids have really messed up home lives, which isn't an excuse, but must be taken into account.

Some of the posters have mentioned that the sense of entitlement comes from their parents; I have a colleague who told me the exact same thing month ago. He's close to retirement and flat out told me that his generation is partly to blame for the problem. I don't disagree with him; I'm convinced that parents who had issues in school tend to have kids with the same problem. As one parent told my wife (who's a math teacher), "I can be the ahole dad, or I can be the nice dad. I don't want to be the ahole." Well, there you go!

I have the utmost respect for teachers; it's not an easy job. 
It is extremely rewarding, but also very frustrating at times. Wouldn't trade it for anything (well, maybe if I could be the guy that gets to test build the new Lego sets  ;D).
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Offline NL_engineer

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Re: Profs say students lack maturity, feel entitled
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2009, 09:06:04 »
All the focus is on the students, saying there not mature.  Well last time I checked, a child's development in not an internal thing, but an external one.  Society encourages immaturity, look at the things that raise most Canadian/American kids (TV and internet).  Yes their are a lot of good TV programs, but most kids/teens tune into something like what is on MTV.

Parents have a large role to play in it to, but when a child comes from a household were both parents work, they are being raised by things like the TV; wile the child with a stay at home parent is being raised by that parent.

As for University's well I have seen way toooooo (not a typo) many profs that have no real World experience in what they teach, or are on there own little planet.  Vice the college system were the instructors have real world experience, and skip the BS stuff that University's make you do.  I have seen way too many University Graduates that don't have a sweet clue about anything (maybe because there outside the box thinking method said that 2+2=5 65% of the time).

Just my 2 cents worth

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Offline BravoCharlie

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Re: Profs say students lack maturity, feel entitled
« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2009, 09:33:19 »
I have to agree with the profs on this one.  I was a 30 year old undergrad and just had the worst time at a big university. Many of the people I had class came across as overprivileged  brats, who had never had to do a day of labour ever.

In terms of development, the most often adhered to theory in psychology is that males do not actually finish developing their prefrontal cortex's until the age of 25, which could explain many of my stupid behaviors earlier in my life.  The prefrontal cortex is the region of the brain largely responsible for fore thought and decision making.

In the years prior to my big university days, I attended a few small colleges and found that there was a higher level of maturity among the population I was in contact with, also the environment was much different which may have been a contributing variable. The conspiracy theorist in me thinks it may also be a bunch of Ivory Tower academics trying to bring back grade 13 in Ontario in order to create more for there cohorts.
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Re: Profs say students lack maturity, feel entitled
« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2009, 09:52:23 »
The conspiracy theorist in me thinks it may also be a bunch of Ivory Tower academics trying to bring back grade 13 in Ontario in order to create more for there cohorts.
Not sure where you're going with this, but it ain't going to happen. There is too much invested in changing the curriculum to fit a 4 year model. Also, the gov't saves a crap load of money by not funding an extra year and having less teacher salaries.
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Offline logairoff

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Re: Profs say students lack maturity, feel entitled
« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2009, 10:22:21 »
Let's give this thread some balance because there is plenty of blame to go around. I think entrance average has nothing to do with any of these problems. A university with a low admission average gives a student a chance to prove themself in University. I assure you that a lot of students do in fact fail/drop out of University before completing a 4 year degree. I have respect for anyone that can complete a University degree anywhere in Canada so let's not belittle that.

I've had this debate many times with friends and have seen it live between teachers and parents. The best line I heard was that teachers have one year of experience 20 times and no one gets a say in whether this one year was a good one or a bad one. The teachers will exclaim well I've done the same thing for 20 years so it must be the students' fault. Well, maybe the problem is that you're doing the same thing every year and aren't adapting/responding to the students you get. We've all had or seen those teachers who are just waiting for their retirment and there is absolutely no passion left. Could the lack of preparedness be correlated with the baby boom generation, more bad teachers being in the system getting older therefore lack of passion? This is just a theory.

We've all had atleast one excellent teacher but we all know/had/heard of many bad teachers that should be fired. Unions are protecting way too many bad teachers. It is way too easy to blame students and society. Teachers and parents should stand up and take some of the blame instead of just throwing it at students.

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Re: Profs say students lack maturity, feel entitled
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2009, 11:50:11 »
I've had this debate many times with friends and have seen it live between teachers and parents. The best line I heard was that teachers have one year of experience 20 times and no one gets a say in whether this one year was a good one or a bad one. The teachers will exclaim well I've done the same thing for 20 years so it must be the students' fault. Well, maybe the problem is that you're doing the same thing every year and aren't adapting/responding to the students you get. We've all had or seen those teachers who are just waiting for their retirment and there is absolutely no passion left. Could the lack of preparedness be correlated with the baby boom generation, more bad teachers being in the system getting older therefore lack of passion? This is just a theory.
 
While I appreciate your comments, what I am reading is a lot of theory and “I heard.” I don’t have 1 year of experience, I have 11 years of experience. Teachers need to be learners as well; I can say that I learn new things everyday. I teach history, and while the material doesn’t change, the way I teach it does. I am always looking for new ways to approach each topic, such as the use of technology. That is what we do, with zeal and passion.

We've all had atleast one excellent teacher but we all know/had/heard of many bad teachers that should be fired. Unions are protecting way too many bad teachers. It is way too easy to blame students and society.
I’m assuming you must have had some bad experiences along the way, but I would argue that the opposite is true. Remember that we too were students at some point. There were a few that I can forget, but there were a lot of good ones that really left a lasting mark. Teaching is like any job or profession; we all have our good and bad. But speaking for myself, I work with a lot of hard working, dedicated and dynamic individuals that strive to make an impact on our youth. This is why I firmly believe that this job is a calling; not everyone is a teacher because not everyone can do this job. I bring passion and enthusiasm with me to work everyday, whether it’s in the classroom, on the football field or even just in the hallway. If I didn’t, I wouldn’t be doing this job.

Yes, everyone has their share of blame. But guess what, my conscience is clear; I haven’t created this lazy or entitled generation. I also know enough to say that all students are not like that. I’d venture to say that the majority work hard and are not like the article describes. I can state this because I have the credentials and experience to back it up. Until I see more than an empty profile and hearsay, I’ll treat opinions for what they are.
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Offline c_canuk

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Re: Profs say students lack maturity, feel entitled
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2009, 12:10:19 »
my thought son the matter...

blame belongs to everyone

The parents:

For not putting the time and effort into teaching their children proper respect for adults.

For well as coddling them and keeping them from any and all responsibility for the consequences of their actions

For changing the focus of our society onto teaching children that they are special little snowflakes and all of society revolves around their happyiness, rather than teach them to be responsible for their own happiness while participating in making society better for everyone.

The Government:

For cutting teacher's pay, resulting in teaching being considered a less desired position in society, which means a lot of the people who do teach, shouldn't. And those that should be end up assuming a lot more responsibility than they should have to and get burned out.

For allowing the PC crowd to take over the institutions and continue to perpetuate the myth that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

The Administrators:

they tend to be some of the most foggy minded immature people I've ever had the displeasure of dealing with, crippled initiative and lack of logical thought and foresight.

For example a friend of mine is a teacher, he was pulled in unpaid on his weekends to attend some guys new plan to retool the NB Education system, he wants to eliminate all classes not centered around University, he thinks that the future is all university... thats right, lets take away freedom of choice and force everyone down the path of university... mean while all white collar jobs are being outsourced to other countries, and our entire blue collar workforce is on the cusp of retirement. Never mind that some people aren't cut out for university and now won't have anything to fall back on. Never mind that it is perfectly honorable to want to work with your hands as an Electrician, Plumber, Mechanic, Wood Worker, Machinist and these skill can all be taught to an appretice level perfectly well within the time people will spend in high school

The teachers: Some of them are great, some of them are abysmal, and some just don't care anymore.

The universities: They've become service providers, not bastions of higher learning. Emphasis on quality education is gone, it's all about the bottom line these days.
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Re: Profs say students lack maturity, feel entitled
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2009, 12:14:52 »
Good discussion.  While there may be, as in any group, a few weiners out, good teachers/professors are worth their weight in GOLD!

How about these as other factors to consider?

1)  I'd like to hear from anyone on the teaching end (elementary/secondary/post-secondary) about how supportive higher up's are when the more assertive students or parents barge in and strongarm a bit (or threaten to).  I've only heard second hand, but some post-secondary environments would rather give someone extra marks on appeal than enforce the policy, even if the student admits not completing all his/her work. 

2)  For those who complain about the delivery of instruction in post-secondary:  how do post-secondary teachers/professors learn how to teach?  Having learned in both community college and university, and taught briefly in a community college, it appears educators in this sector generally teach how they were taught.  I know as a cocky young MCPL when I was in university, I witnessed in lectures where, if a soldier delivered theory the same way in a leadership course, s/he would have failed the lecture.  Am I the only one seeing it this way?
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Offline Infandone

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Re: Profs say students lack maturity, feel entitled
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2009, 12:19:57 »
While I appreciate your comments, what I am reading is a lot of theory and “I heard.” I don’t have 1 year of experience, I have 11 years of experience. Teachers need to be learners as well; I can say that I learn new things everyday. I teach history, and while the material doesn’t change, the way I teach it does. I am always looking for new ways to approach each topic, such as the use of technology. That is what we do, with zeal and passion.
I’m assuming you must have had some bad experiences along the way, but I would argue that the opposite is true. Remember that we too were students at some point. There were a few that I can forget, but there were a lot of good ones that really left a lasting mark. Teaching is like any job or profession; we all have our good and bad. But speaking for myself, I work with a lot of hard working, dedicated and dynamic individuals that strive to make an impact on our youth. This is why I firmly believe that this job is a calling; not everyone is a teacher because not everyone can do this job. I bring passion and enthusiasm with me to work everyday, whether it’s in the classroom, on the football field or even just in the hallway. If I didn’t, I wouldn’t be doing this job.

Yes, everyone has their share of blame. But guess what, my conscience is clear; I haven’t created this lazy or entitled generation. I also know enough to say that all students are not like that. I’d venture to say that the majority work hard and are not like the article describes. I can state this because I have the credentials and experience to back it up. Until I see more than an empty profile and hearsay, I’ll treat opinions for what they are.

So first you generalize a whole generation as "lazy and entitled," then in the next sentence go on to say that the majority work hard. Which one is it?

Offline NL_engineer

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Re: Profs say students lack maturity, feel entitled
« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2009, 12:31:37 »
So first you generalize a whole generation as "lazy and entitled," then in the next sentence go on to say that the majority work hard. Which one is it?


Did you read the whole 3 pages?  Because I recall he has/someone else explained both off those in another post.
Note to any Taliban and AQ personnel on the Form:  ALL SUICIDE VESTS AND EXPLOSIVE DEVICES MUST BE TESTED TO INSURE THEY WORK BEFORE GOING AFTER A TARGET.

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It has come to my attention that these measures are not being followed, so for all Taliban; please refer to the above.

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Re: Profs say students lack maturity, feel entitled
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2009, 12:36:14 »
So first you generalize a whole generation as "lazy and entitled," then in the next sentence go on to say that the majority work hard. Which one is it?
I was referring to the label they are given and that it is somewhat erroneous.
Did you read the whole 3 pages?  Because I recall he has/someone else explained both off those in another post.
Hmmm, not reading everything....where have I seen that before?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 12:49:12 by ex-Sup »
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Offline Infandone

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Re: Profs say students lack maturity, feel entitled
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2009, 12:53:54 »
I was referring to the label they are given and that it is somewhat erroneous.

Maybe you could word it better next time.

"But guess what, my conscience is clear; I haven’t created this lazy or entitled generation," directly contradicts "I also know enough to say that all students are not like that. I’d venture to say that the majority work hard and are not like the article describes."

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Re: Profs say students lack maturity, feel entitled
« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2009, 13:17:54 »
Maybe you could word it better next time.

"But guess what, my conscience is clear; I haven’t created this lazy or entitled generation," directly contradicts "I also know enough to say that all students are not like that. I’d venture to say that the majority work hard and are not like the article describes."
But guess what, my conscience is clear; I haven't created any lazy or entitled indivduals (at least not knowingly...I set fairly high standards). I also know enough to say that all students are not lazy or entitled. I’d venture to say that the majority work hard and are not like the article describes.

Is this better? Once again however, I was referring to the title and how it generalizes. I didn't view it as contradictory, or I wouldn't have written it.
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Re: Profs say students lack maturity, feel entitled
« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2009, 13:19:45 »
1)  I'd like to hear from anyone on the teaching end (elementary/secondary/post-secondary) about how supportive higher up's are when the more assertive students or parents barge in and strongarm a bit (or threaten to).  I've only heard second hand, but some post-secondary environments would rather give someone extra marks on appeal than enforce the policy, even if the student admits not completing all his/her work. 

2)  For those who complain about the delivery of instruction in post-secondary:  how do post-secondary teachers/professors learn how to teach?  Having learned in both community college and university, and taught briefly in a community college, it appears educators in this sector generally teach how they were taught.  I know as a cocky young MCPL when I was in university, I witnessed in lectures where, if a soldier delivered theory the same way in a leadership course, s/he would have failed the lecture.  Am I the only one seeing it this way?
I'll get back to you in a bit Tony.
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Re: Profs say students lack maturity, feel entitled
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2009, 13:59:12 »
But guess what, my conscience is clear; I haven't created any lazy or entitled indivduals (at least not knowingly...I set fairly high standards). I also know enough to say that all students are not lazy or entitled. I’d venture to say that the majority work hard and are not like the article describes.

Is this better? Once again however, I was referring to the title and how it generalizes. I didn't view it as contradictory, or I wouldn't have written it.

Yeah that's good, but "in my experience, the majority of students today are hard workers" would be better.  >:D

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Re: Profs say students lack maturity, feel entitled
« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2009, 14:18:45 »
1)  I'd like to hear from anyone on the teaching end (elementary/secondary/post-secondary) about how supportive higher up's are when the more assertive students or parents barge in and strongarm a bit (or threaten to).  I've only heard second hand, but some post-secondary environments would rather give someone extra marks on appeal than enforce the policy, even if the student admits not completing all his/her work. 

I’ve been fairly lucky to work with some great admin, especially the current group. They shut down the BS pretty quickly (this is assuming you’ve done your job ie. calling home, etc.). I have witnessed/heard of some waffling at all levels (teacher, admin, board), which can be deflating. I’ve been lucky to only have a few scrapes with parents over the years, and I’ve rec’d awesome support. Ironically, the few that come to mind are from football….interesting. If you are doing your job properly, then most of these complaints don’t have a leg to stand on. As I mentioned in a previous post, most of the waves are caused by those who have some sort of previous issue with school, authority, etc.

2)  For those who complain about the delivery of instruction in post-secondary:  how do post-secondary teachers/professors learn how to teach?  Having learned in both community college and university, and taught briefly in a community college, it appears educators in this sector generally teach how they were taught.  I know as a cocky young MCPL when I was in university, I witnessed in lectures where, if a soldier delivered theory the same way in a leadership course, s/he would have failed the lecture.  Am I the only one seeing it this way?

Now I’m a bit out of my lane here, but most I would venture they receive little. I can only remember one prof I had at LU had a B.Ed. I’m not saying that a teaching degree automatically makes one better, but I would imagine that it has got to help. Most profs are there to do research and teaching is something that comes with the job; I think this why there are a lot of sessional lecturers out there. That being said, I did have some great profs, even if they are not trained teachers. However, there were some that limited their “instruction” to reading the text. There are good and bad everywhere; like I said before, some are not cut out to teach. The profs that do a better job are probably more comfortable and have a natural inclination to do the job.
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Re: Profs say students lack maturity, feel entitled
« Reply #49 on: April 07, 2009, 14:22:10 »
Yeah that's good, but "in my experience, the majority of students today are hard workers" would be better.  >:D
Everyone's a friggin' critic! I'm trying to mark tests while I do this   :P
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