Author Topic: First Air Force loadmasters to qualify on C-130J graduate  (Read 24359 times)

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Offline Eye In The Sky

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First Air Force loadmasters to qualify on C-130J graduate
« on: September 01, 2009, 12:00:46 »
http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/v2/nr-sp/index-eng.asp?id=9248

First Air Force loadmasters to qualify on C-130J graduate
Aug. 31, 2009
 
By Maj Yves Harvey

Friday, 24 July 2009 was an exciting day for the Canadian Air Force, 8 Wing Trenton and the loadmaster community. Warrant Officer Rick Barrett and Sergeant Sean Walsh, both 426 Squadron loadmaster instructors, became the first two loadmasters to graduate from the initial C130J Loadmaster course in Little Rock, Arkansas, setting an example for future Canadian J-model loadmasters through their hard work and dedication. 

The USAF training establishment in Little Rock praised the Canadian Loadmasters as true professionals who exceeded all expectations.

The initial C130J Loadmaster course is three months long, and the candidates learn how to operate the new enhanced cargo compartment system as well as basic aircraft systems such as fuel management. 

“It’s a new set of responsibilities; during normal ops or during an emergency, the pilot might ask me to keep the fuel tanks balanced and within limits”, said Sgt Walsh after his graduation, “I have to be able to help pilots in a way that I had never imagined.  For example, during an emergency, the pilot might ask me to run the check list.  It is challenging but also very exiting and rewarding”.

The two [loadmasters] are home in Ontario to enjoy a couple of weeks off before heading south of the border once more for approximately four weeks of C130J tactical training in California.  Upon completion, WO Barrett and Sgt Walsh will be qualified to operate the C130J anywhere in the world in both strategic and tactical roles.

Four other loadmasters and ten pilots are presently on course in Little Rock, where training will be conducted for the next two years. Canada bought 17 C130J-30 to replace our aging Hercules fleet. The first Canadian aircraft is expected to land in Trenton in 2010 in the early summer, with the others following at regular intervals.

Maj Harvey is the 426 Squadron C130J Implementation Flight Commander

Reproduced with permission of The Contact newspaper, 8 Wing Trenton.

Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Offline SARgirl

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Re: First Air Force loadmasters to qualify on C-130J graduate
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2009, 15:26:35 »
Eye In The Sky,
Awwwww... I was just about to post this; you beat me to it. :P  Great read, thank you for sharing.

----------

It looks like the loadmasters jobs are about to get more interesting and exciting. 

Congratulations to the two loadmasters who passed the training.

That Others May Live!
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Offline hauger

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Re: First Air Force loadmasters to qualify on C-130J graduate
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2009, 13:17:41 »
Good on them.  Wonder which of the two topped the course.

aesop081

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Re: First Air Force loadmasters to qualify on C-130J graduate
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2009, 13:33:04 »
Quote
“It’s a new set of responsibilities; during normal ops or during an emergency, the pilot might ask me to keep the fuel tanks balanced and within limits”, said Sgt Walsh after his graduation, “I have to be able to help pilots in a way that I had never imagined.  For example, during an emergency, the pilot might ask me to run the check list.  It is challenging but also very exiting and rewarding”.


In related news, there has recently been a huge number of flight engineers found in CF Hangar bathrooms, curled up in the fetal position, crying and mumbling "theres no place like home, thers no place like home...."

 >:D

Offline SARgirl

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Re: First Air Force loadmasters to qualify on C-130J graduate
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2009, 14:31:14 »
In related news, there has recently been a huge number of flight engineers found in CF Hangar bathrooms, curled up in the fetal position, crying and mumbling "theres no place like home, thers no place like home...."

 >:D

 :rofl:   
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: First Air Force loadmasters to qualify on C-130J graduate
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2009, 17:59:19 »
LOL

I can almost picture it in my head...the FE Career Mgr at the time of the graduation, looks at his buddy in the next cubicle in NDHQ/Chaos HQ and says quietly...

"I sense a disturbance in The Force"
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Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

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Re: First Air Force loadmasters to qualify on C-130J graduate
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2009, 18:24:43 »
The J is impressive. I first flew in a RAAF one back in 2001 from Richmond to Shoalwater Bay, and the J ferried us in and out of Iraq via Kuwait (for me four times).

I am suprised, but not shocked the CF is just J'n up now.

This upgrade is long overdue.

OWDU
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Offline SARgirl

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Re: First Air Force loadmasters to qualify on C-130J graduate
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2009, 15:44:10 »
LOL

I can almost picture it in my head...the FE Career Mgr at the time of the graduation, looks at his buddy in the next cubicle in NDHQ/Chaos HQ and says quietly...

"I sense a disturbance in The Force"

 :rofl:

------

This upgrade is long overdue.
Most upgrades usually are long overdue, but it's good they are now getting it done.  Better late than never.  :)
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Offline FltEngr

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Re: First Air Force loadmasters to qualify on C-130J graduate
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2009, 01:45:09 »
LOL

I can almost picture it in my head...the FE Career Mgr at the time of the graduation, looks at his buddy in the next cubicle in NDHQ/Chaos HQ and says quietly...

"I sense a disturbance in The Force"

No kidding! I am offended by the lack of support from higher up regarding that issue, it has been an ongoing thing for a few years in our trade. With all my respect to the Loadies which I've known and flown with quite a few of them when I worked on the legacy Herc before, yet I can not understand somebody with no formal technical background such as AVN tech, Aero engine, Airframe, IE, etc operating aircraft systems like fuel, hydraulic, electrical and APU onboard. The "P-Serie" has some restrictions as to what can be done or not. I remember they had no servicing/elementary quals, they had to request a tech to start the power unit and apply power on the aircraft. Same goes with fueling. Yet, the Loadies for instance on the C17 are doing the preflight instead of the pilots as there is no Flight Engineer onboard, illegal. They also fuel, illegal. Aside from that they're carrying techs not considered aircrew with all the quals and maintenance release signatures onboard. For over 50 years the FE has been doing that by himself with no further support. Loadies only do weight & balance, this is 2% of my job description.

I would like to know why there isn't Loadies on the Twotter? It's the smaller scale version of a Herc or C17. No difference, these seats should belong to FE's IMHO. We operate remotely like I said, self sufficient until something major breaks, until then we know what is a minor snags, we can release the aircraft, we can perform inspection/maintenance and repair snags. Instead the 2 or 3 techs are doing that in the C17. How many techs are they gonna carry in the J's now? The Brits realized after the fact, I heard they are adding the FE seat back on their J's and C17's. Maybe they learned something?

I am probably gonna spark something here but I feel it was already started. I do apologize if you are a Loadmaster but as an FE I feel threatened by you. You obviously have better support from the commissioned side of the house as there are commissioned Loadies in the CF like Admin Officers. I just feel that you are slightly over the neighbour's yard with all the new toys we are getting, you guys tried hard for the Chinook I know.  Unfortunately FE's don't have any commissioned members anymore, highest rank being CWO.

On the other hand I am glad that the CAS has recently started to support the FE trade. On top of confirming our existence in the future, we will also remain as a stand alone trade with a few changes brought to our rank structure. Who knows we may see some new positions on the heavies later on?

Offline hauger

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Re: First Air Force loadmasters to qualify on C-130J graduate
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2009, 10:36:21 »
FltEng:  You definitely feel strongly about the issue, and I don't blame you.  You make a good point regarding on-the-road maintenance, where the current crew compliment does not allow for anyone to do troubleshooting on the road.  Having said that, I'm not entirely sure what the inflight duties of a J FE would be. 

One of the high benefits of using a "tech crewman" vs. an FE is the tech crewman has no inflight duties.  The beauty of that is the mission isn't restricted by the tech crewman's duty day.  Plane breaks in Alert, the Tech Crewman can get it fixed while the crew gets their crewrest so the plane can leagally take off the next day even though the tech crewman worked all night getting the thing fixed.

It's kind of the same as the Nav issue.  A Nav on the aircraft provides another set of eyes for threat/aircraft conflict help, it provides another trained brain set to catch errors and provide sugestions, and would allow pilots to offload some duties such as radio work or FMS programming.  Having said that, sure it's nice, but unneeded.  The on board computer allows two piltos to manage 4 radios (plus HF), fly heads up with the HUD, doing a tactical flight that puts the aircraft on target within seconds of planned and dropping the load on target with scores that are much tighter than visual drops.  So sure, a Nav could help, but it's not really needed.  The same goes with the FE where allies have proven it's possible to safely fly without one for the last deccade, both stratigically and in theater.

Offline mover1

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Re: First Air Force loadmasters to qualify on C-130J graduate
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2009, 15:29:08 »
First off I would like say congrats to the loadmasters off the C-103J course for doing so well and doing us proud, as I knew they would.

FltEngr, I agree with hauger that you obviously feel very strongly about this issue. But I think your anger is misplaced against loadmasters and are the ramblings of someone extrememly mis-informed.  I feel I can help enlighten you being one of those "Loadmasters who do nothing but a weight and Balance" on the C17, which by the way is another ignorant mis-informed statement on your part. To address some of your "statements";

FltEngr- "I can not understand somebody with no formal technical background such as AVN tech, Aero engine, Airframe, IE, etc operating aircraft systems like fuel, hydraulic, electrical and APU onboard. The "P-Serie" has some restrictions as to what can be done or not. I remember they had no servicing/elementary quals, they had to request a tech to start the power unit and apply power on the aircraft. Same goes with fueling. Yet, the Loadies for instance on the C17 are doing the preflight instead of the pilots as there is no Flight Engineer onboard, illegal. They also fuel, illegal. "

A- Loadmasters are trainined on the Initial Loadmaster Qualification to do these elementry maintenance tasks and receive the required technical training to operate the cockpit systems. We are trained and qualified to operate the fueling, hydraulics, electrical and APU as well as handle any associated emergencies with those systems we may encounter, in fact we are trained for this more than the techs are. We are required to carry out simulator training to maintain currency on all the above items. No this is not illegal, much to your chagrin I am sure, however the "P series" does not restrict us since we as aircrew are not bound by this manual...techs are. We fall under a new manual (new... as in new aircraft, new way of doing business). 

FltEngr-"Aside from that they're carrying techs not considered aircrew with all the quals and maintenance release signatures onboard. For over 50 years the FE has been doing that by himself with no further support. Loadies only do weight & balance, this is 2% of my job description.

A- I am sure your fellow maintenance bretheran would be dissapointed to here you say they are not considered aircrew, albiet correct. They are treated in most repects like aircrew with out the pay (aircrew allowance) and crew rest and whether I agree or disagree with those points would be a totally different topic of discussion. The reality of it is that tech are not really needed on this aircraft until it lands and there is an issue, and even then it is in 90% of the cases that the jet is treated like a computer and we hit ctrl alt del...reset the jet (power down) and it is good to go. As for a hard break, well in most of those cases it's something the tech could do over the phone telling a pilot or loadie and we could carry on. Or its a simple box in box out. The days of extensive manual wrench turning like on the legacy herc or "twotter" are disapearing into the light like where perhaps FE's are better suited to heading off into. the loadmaster on both aircraft are expected to do alot more than a weight and balance. Aside from the huge loads we carry, we must also carry out in flight emergencies, backing up the pilots troubleshooting and handling any emergencies that may come up. The Tech on board, Tech Crewmen, have no in-flight duties. Their sole purpose is to take care of turning the jet enroute, a Canadianism by the way since the jet is designed to fly with 2 pilots and a Loadmaster, hence why we are trained to do all those maintenance tasks. I am sure the reason doing weight and balance on a twin otter is only 2 % of your job is the fact that you carry what??? 3 crew and 30 pounds of freight. No weight and balance required...thats why we do not have loadies on that AC.

FltEngr- "I would like to know why there isn't Loadies on the Twotter? It's the smaller scale version of a Herc or C17. No difference, these seats should belong to FE's IMHO."

A- OMG...laughable, being a flight engineer you would think you would know AC a bit better. Twotter and C17...no where even close to being similar, except they both fly not to mention to us, a Twotter is cargo...yes it can fit in my belly. As to why those seats are not occupied by a FE, the plane has been flown since 1993 and at no time has the seat been occupied by an FE, other than bring one up to show him what he can't have...enough said.

FltEngr- "I do apologize if you are a Loadmaster but as an FE I feel threatened by you."

A- Don't feel threatened...this is not about us (loadmasters)...it's about FE Denial...It's not the fault of the loadmasters that your trade is dying...I read the email from the CAS to...placating to your trade as far as I saw. Attrition will slowly die out the trade...it is technology. Just telling it like it is. There is simply no requirement for an FE on the C17 or the J model and you are also incorrect that the Brits are putting one on the C17...

FltEngr- "You obviously have better support from the commissioned side of the house as there are commissioned Loadies in the CF like Admin Officers."

A- Wrong, our highest rank is also CWO. You are correct in that there are Log officers that have completed the Loadmaster course on the legacy herc and airbus but they do nothing for our trade, they do the course to have the wings, thats pretty much it.

FltEngr- " just feel that you are slightly over the neighbour's yard with all the new toys we are getting, you guys tried hard for the Chinook I know."

A- A word on the chinook...you are most likely gonna be seeing loadies on that...not FE's...the ones flying now were a quick answer to a problem...wait for it.

Bottom line here is I have been on this aircraft (C17) from the very first day, Canadian that is. I have flown with the Americans and we have Americans flying with us. They shake their heads when they see the attempts the FE's have made in trying to get on the C17 and J model. NOT REQUIRED to operate the aircraft. The J model will end up with the same thing we have a Tech crewman. FltEngr, I sincerly hope you don't pin your hopes on flying on either aircraft as an FE because it just aint gonna happen. I have 2 Nav friends who were smart enough to see the light and went pilot...you should adjust and come over to the dark side....loadmaster is a good go. All you need to do is re-muster to Traffic Tech...do your QL3's and 5"s...do 2 yrs at an AMU then be selected to go flying. Oh ya...you have to give up your SPEC PAY....ouch...reconsider that one huh.


Offline Chuck 130

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Re: First Air Force loadmasters to qualify on C-130J graduate
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2010, 21:03:18 »
Mover1
            What an awesome reply to a misinformed indivdual.  See you on the flightline buddy.

Offline SuperAVS

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Re: First Air Force loadmasters to qualify on C-130J graduate
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2010, 03:31:48 »
You guys are on a one way road to a flight safety incident....

What I see here is a pissing contest between FE and LM which is not healthy. Everyone in the trades has a job to do. Be it monitoring in flight systems, driving the pig, plotting the course, ensuring flight worthy-ness, or pushing the boxes like santa claus out the back. Everyone is important, everyone has a place.

If you two want to bicker and push your self importance upon each other, then do so privately. In the end no one is more important than the mission and flight safety.

Offline Loadie660

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Re: First Air Force loadmasters to qualify on C-130J graduate
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2010, 20:38:51 »
Really SuperAVS??...a flight safety? You know this is a forum and Mover1 is just saying what many others would say.... Flt Engr was misinformed and needed to be corrected. Hardly a cause for such drama on your part.

As for everyone having a job to do...you are correct everyone does have a job to do, however there just isn't one on the new aircraft for flight engineers, as much as it is unfortunate to see so many people potentially loose jobs. I have lots of flight engineer friends and it is sad to see the trade die....but to use a popular acronym...IMHO, Mover1 is right, Flt Engr needs to consider a new trade or be happy with his lot on the "twotter" because he isn't going to see employment on the C17 or J-Model.

Once again...this is a forum and although you may look at it as self important bickering, I see someone (Mover1) putting someone in their place (Flt Engr) that needed it. So SuperAVS, if you don't like it....there are plenty of other things to read on the internet....feel free to skip over the forums that you don't agree with.

Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: First Air Force loadmasters to qualify on C-130J graduate
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2010, 20:53:50 »
Why don't you all go to your corners and do the job you are told to do.  The decisions on who goes in what airplane is made at a much higher level and I doubt that the opinion of a MCpl amongst God Knows How Many will make a difference.

If you have flight safety concerns, address them through the proper channels.  For all other concerns, go through your CoC.

Offline mover1

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Re: First Air Force loadmasters to qualify on C-130J graduate
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2010, 18:31:16 »
Why don't you all go to your corners and do the job you are told to do.  The decisions on who goes in what airplane is made at a much higher level and I doubt that the opinion of a MCpl amongst God Knows How Many will make a difference.

If you have flight safety concerns, address them through the proper channels.  For all other concerns, go through your CoC.
What?!?! This statement went right past me? Are you a mod or just the fun police?

Offline Occam

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Re: First Air Force loadmasters to qualify on C-130J graduate
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2010, 19:17:28 »
What?!?! This statement went right past me? Are you a mod or just the fun police?

It looks like advice that I'm betting a lot of people are wishing you'd take.

Offline mover1

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Re: First Air Force loadmasters to qualify on C-130J graduate
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2010, 09:20:25 »
Adivce I would take? For what? Replying to a post?

Offline hauger

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Re: First Air Force loadmasters to qualify on C-130J graduate
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2010, 22:47:59 »
Man I love these forums sometimes.  Mover1, great response to Flt Engr.  Very well written.

SupersonicMax:  What?  People here are discussing a big change that's taking place in air mobility.  Telling people to "just do whatever your told and quit asking questions" isn't a response.  What Mover1 said was a response.

See, the thing here is there's a change in the way business is being done, and there's some misconceptions as to why.  Mover1 did a great job explaining what loadies do now and why FE's are being written out of the new aircraft.

Offline Occam

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Re: First Air Force loadmasters to qualify on C-130J graduate
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2010, 23:01:13 »
Just as an outsider, looking in on this discussion - I think we may need to purchase a few used C-5s from the USAF, as that's the only way we're going to get some loadie's heads into the aircraft.   ::)

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Re: First Air Force loadmasters to qualify on C-130J graduate
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2010, 23:23:16 »
Just as an outsider, looking in on this discussion - I think we may need to purchase a few used C-5s from the USAF, as that's the only way we're going to get some loadie's heads into the aircraft.   ::)

Quite the oposite. Rather than worry about who is being trained to do what, Flight engineers should use their brain power towards stopping their trade from imploding manpower-wise.

Loadies are doing the job assigned to them by the AF, some FE are offended because of their own sense of self-importance.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 23:26:36 by CDN Aviator »

Offline Occam

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Re: First Air Force loadmasters to qualify on C-130J graduate
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2010, 06:23:37 »
Quite the oposite. Rather than worry about who is being trained to do what, Flight engineers should use their brain power towards stopping their trade from imploding manpower-wise.

Loadies are doing the job assigned to them by the AF, some FE are offended because of their own sense of self-importance.

That may be, but I see a lot of unnecessary gloating going on by the loadies.

Anyways, I have no dog in this fight; just commenting on how unprofessional it looks on the AF.

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Re: First Air Force loadmasters to qualify on C-130J graduate
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2010, 08:55:43 »
If the Air Force is having a little bit of a trade conflict, I'd be happy to sell you the C&E Branch's MES project. In fact, I'll give it away for free! I bet I could even get a collection up to pay you guys to take it off our hands. It won't fix the trade conflicts, but it will create enough confusion that you'll just pretend the conflict isn't there while worrying what the heck MES is.  >:D

Offline mover1

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Re: First Air Force loadmasters to qualify on C-130J graduate
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2010, 14:24:41 »
hauger and CDN Aviator and the other loadies thanks for the support to my past posts.
I will refrain from starting a flamewar or a bun fight about this issue. I stand by what was posted if you have any more questions about my job or what we do exactly, you can come up to the LOADMASTER station after we have reached cruise altitude or it is safe to move around the CARGO compartment and the captain has turned of the seatbelt sign.


Offline beenthere

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Re: First Air Force loadmasters to qualify on C-130J graduate
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2010, 19:08:06 »
I'm sure that the crew structure will be just fine. The idea of tech. crewmen has been used in the past so it's nothing new.

When the CH-113A was in service the normal crew was 2 pilots and 1 crew chief (loadmaster). If the aircraft was going on an extended mission (deployment) a tech. crewman was used.

The pilots and crew chief did all of the preflight checks, refueling and other functions.
The crew chiefs were R.C.A.S.C. army transport drivers who had no experience around aircraft at all with the exception of a few who had been involved in air dispatch.

There is no reason why anyone has to have a particular background to do a job so long as the training that they receive includes what ever applies to the job.
But not lately. If I could do it all over again I would  change one thing.