Author Topic: Nine liner  (Read 59354 times)

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Offline jeffb

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Nine liner
« on: October 31, 2009, 17:58:55 »
Anyone know where I can find the format for the nine liner? I have DIN access if need be.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Nine liner
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2009, 18:10:28 »
Try the CIED site on the DIN.

I did manage to find it using the DND Search, after much frustration.

I also found it on the Internet by using Google.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Nine liner
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2009, 18:19:33 »
Here is one link:

http://www.operationalmedicine.org/Videos/9LineMEDEVAC.htm



I suppose the next question you are going to ask will be for a MIST Report:

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Offline mariomike

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Re: Nine liner
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2009, 18:23:58 »
I suppose the next question you are going to ask will be for a MIST Report:

MIST Report

Used when handing a casualty over to a medical team


M   -   mechanism of injury (mine, GSW, RPG, RTA etc)

I   -   type of Injury (found and or suspected)

S   -   signs (pulse rate, blood pressure, respiratory rate)

T   -   treatment given (morphine, tourniquet etc)

A/C – adult/child (include age if known)

Don't take this for gospel!

Offline jeffb

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Re: Nine liner
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2009, 18:31:51 »
Perfect! Thanks gang. I tried a Google search but for some reason couldn't find it.  :salute:

And thanks for the MIST Report. That too is going into my Aide de Memoir.
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Offline mikeninercharlie

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Re: Nine liner
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2009, 18:51:13 »
A modified NATO 9 liner format was adopted for use in the Spring of this year. Significant changes to categorization (vice priority) pick up / delivery time lines, and minor changes to para 8 , the nationality of the casualties.  Even the has US military signed off on the mod!
Unfortunately, I don't the format readily available to post. as I'm several hours from my office.
Additionally, there is a NATO doc detailing changes in what was once known as the "golden hour", it should be read in conjunction with the new 9 liner...

Offline jeffb

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Re: Nine liner
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2009, 21:19:26 »
Good to know. Would you be able to post it at some point in the future?
~ Ubique ~
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Offline mikeninercharlie

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Re: Nine liner
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2009, 22:11:07 »
Sure. However, the earliest I'll be able to post it will be Monday evening.

Offline Breacher41

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Re: Nine liner
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2009, 20:05:05 »
So... anything? :D Waiting on this one as well :D
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Offline ThainC

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Re: Nine liner
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2009, 20:33:53 »
If you haven't received anything by tomorrow morning, drop me a PM here with your email and I'll email you the most recent 9 Liner/MIST in use. I've digital copies of almost all reports/returns. I'm in Gagetown, so take any time difference into consideration.
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Offline Breacher41

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Re: Nine liner
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2009, 21:01:46 »
ThainC PM inbound. Thanks for the offer!
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Offline mikeninercharlie

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Re: Nine liner
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2009, 21:08:56 »
Can you wait a couple of hours, some of us are on exercise on the 2010 host city...

Offline Breacher41

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Re: Nine liner
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2009, 21:37:02 »
Can you wait a couple of hours, some of us are on exercise on the 2010 host city...

Sure you're in the same city as I am and on Pandemonium, I understand :D
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Offline mikeninercharlie

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Re: Nine liner
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2009, 00:36:52 »
here you go... Note the changes to para 3.

Offline Breacher41

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Re: Nine liner
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2009, 00:43:27 »
here you go... Note the changes to para 3.

Cheerios!
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Offline Brihard

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Re: Nine liner
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2009, 19:15:22 »
Awesome, thanks for the new format. I'd heard there had been some changes.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Simian Turner

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Re: Nine liner
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2011, 10:05:20 »
Does anyone know if any subsequent changes were made to this important document?
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Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: Nine liner
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2011, 10:08:33 »
You can also download the JFIRE online.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/doctrine/dod/t0302060.pdf

Edit: Wrong link
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 10:19:42 by SupersonicMax »

Offline blackberet17

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Re: Nine liner
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2012, 10:30:11 »
Does anyone know if any subsequent changes were made to this important document?

Was just down in Fort Pickett VA, and no changes have been made to date that I could see. The US Marines we were working with, plus our own guys, provided refresher training, and it looks G2G.

Man, to have the resources the US has. Granted, it was a training scenario, but when you have to do a cas evac, and as soon as you have the first five lines out over the means, and you know the blades are turning on the chopper, it's pretty cool. Finish it, plus the MIST, and the medevac team is already in the air. Most realistic trg I've been on yet.

And the US pilots will land anywhere. On one IED strike scenario, where we had three cas, they landed those Blackhawks on a postage stamp.  :salute:
« Ne vous occupez pas d'eux; ils ne savent pas tirer. [...] Il y a des ennemis devant nous, derrière nous et sur nos flancs. Il ne reste qu'une place sans danger, soit vers l'objectif. » Paul Triquet, VC

Offline Simian Turner

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Re: Nine liner
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2012, 11:34:48 »
What kind of escort helos were they using for the Blackhawks - other Blackhawks or Apaches?  Were the escort helos already on station or did they launch with casevac?

Not sure that it is realistic to have rotors turning after 5 lines - they still need a mission brief and need to know what equipment to have on board.

They do have lots of great kit but the mission risk level determines the approvals required for launch this results from assessment of ground activity, security level at HLS , do other ops with higher priority for casevac, patient census level and Operating Room status at  closest treatment facility.

Realistic scenarios would allow some prep work before launching high priority assets.

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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Nine liner
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2012, 11:39:46 »
Escorts overseas were Apaches that launched with the Blackhawk. Line 4 is special equipment and line 5 is number of patients. The rest of the info they can get in the air as its only the nationalities of casualties and marking method.

Offline Brihard

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Re: Nine liner
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2012, 11:44:02 »
What kind of escort helos were they using for the Blackhawks - other Blackhawks or Apaches?  Were the escort helos already on station or did they launch with casevac?

Not sure that it is realistic to have rotors turning after 5 lines - they still need a mission brief and need to know what equipment to have on board.

They do have lots of great kit but the mission risk level determines the approvals required for launch this results from assessment of ground activity, security level at HLS , do other ops with higher priority for casevac, patient census level and Operating Room status at  closest treatment facility.

Realistic scenarios would allow some prep work before launching high priority assets.

Line 4 gives 'special equipment required'. Other than that, a bird used primarily for CASEVAC should be pretty loaded to the gills with most of anything needed; I would contend that very few combat casualties will require equipment over and above that carried routinely in a CASEVAC bird, and that the tradeoff of faster response times is worth the slight chance that one particular piece of equipment may be missed if they're wheels up before MIST is out.

Worst case, while they're in the air and en route, the decision to scrub or to hold off pending the arrival of escorts can be made as the tactical situation is fleshed out. The 9 liner is not the only source of relevant tactical information, after all- contact reports and SITREPs should have filled in much of that anyway. If the pilot has a 4 figure grid, he doesn't need an 8 or 10 or a method of marking until he's a few minutes out. If armed escort is made a default, that also will count towards faster response.

The tactical questions in this case play second fiddle to the larger strategic issue that even small numbers of casualties have become. If we get back into a war where there IS an 'acceptable loss ratio', then it's a different matter. But with every name and face having political ramifications, the 'side of caution' would seem to be the fastest CASEVAC achievable.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Simian Turner

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Re: Nine liner
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2012, 02:12:09 »
I am merely indicating that based on the 325 Medical Evacuation Missions that I coordinated at the RCS JOC Med Ops desk in 2008, things did not happen that quickly for all of the 530 casualties involved.  Response times vary with location, nationality of casualties,  and the situation on the ground.  In more than a few cases the casualties were inside burning vehicles or in firefights and it was impractical to have the birds on station while extraction took place.  Without the launch authority from the JOC or TOC which took anywhere from 2 minutes to 2 hour to obtain, it did not matter how quickly the crews readied their choppers they were not going anywhere fast.

The 9-line does not mean launch authority is automatic and depending on the nationality of the casualties and the destination med facility may change from where the helos will launch.  Without the complete MIST nobody was going anywhere.  Unless the casualties maintain heartbeats and functioning lungs, they could quickly become a routine ground transport issue.  US blood products at US facilities are normally reserved for US casualties when the US ground forces are busy.  Having one non-US casualty arrive at a facility and drain the 40 units available is not good for morale.  Likewise Afghan civilians, military or police casualties were often diverted to local medical facilities.

During 2008, most escorts from the launchpad were other Blackhawks and the Apache if available would meet up with them on approach since the speed and the range of the two helos differ significantly. Similarly an Apache sitting idle waiting for a med escort tasking is firepower that was seldom a luxury item that could not  be put to better use in a fight.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 02:43:22 by Simian Turner »
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Offline Rider Pride

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Re: Nine liner
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2012, 06:32:52 »
Simian,
By your own admission, that was Afghanistan. While that may still be true in RC south (it was as of Dec 11), it has been my experience that that is not a standardized SOP across the wide range of US military operations.

Flights for US and NATO allies tend to be launched very quickly, and info past during time of flight. Specifically I have seen this inside the US when there is no "local nationals", to be dealt with.

That being said, the report to launch time varies widely, and professional medical authorities need to ask that question of thier tactical medevac asset providers.

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Re: Nine liner
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2012, 08:55:59 »
The requirements seemed to get more and more stringent in RC(S) as time went on. When I got to theatre for Roto 4, we needed a full 9-liner and MIST was sent in the air. We had been told previously that only 4 lines were required and the remainder was sent in the air or as the crew was prepping. Typically you're not going to send half a 9-liner anyways, so its almost a moot point.