Author Topic: Search and Rescue questions, no i do not want to be one, just curious  (Read 498 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline FormerHorseGuard

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 12,595
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 552
I am hoping maybe some one here can answer a few questions.

1) Who calls the Joint Rescue Center for help? Can anyone call for rescue or does it have to come from another government department?
2) How long does it take to get a crew ready to fly the rescue mission?
3) How long would it take a helicopter to get from Trenton to Pembroke Ontario area? Rescue in the Algonquin Park area.
4) How much search time does the CH146 Griffon have over the rescue target area? I know it depends on flight time to the area.
5) How many many extra persons can the Griffon carry besides the crew during a rescue operation?
 
Thanks in advance, this has been interesting summer for rescues in The Park.

Offline Brihard

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 338,625
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,887
  • Non-Electric Pop-Up Target
I am hoping maybe some one here can answer a few questions.

1) Who calls the Joint Rescue Center for help? Can anyone call for rescue or does it have to come from another government department?
2) How long does it take to get a crew ready to fly the rescue mission?
3) How long would it take a helicopter to get from Trenton to Pembroke Ontario area? Rescue in the Algonquin Park area.
4) How much search time does the CH146 Griffon have over the rescue target area? I know it depends on flight time to the area.
5) How many many extra persons can the Griffon carry besides the crew during a rescue operation?
 
Thanks in advance, this has been interesting summer for rescues in The Park.

Offering the very small bit of knowledge I've got, typically a ground SAR will be initiated by a call to 911 from someone worried about a friend/family member, or potentially by one of the emergency locator beacon companies. The police of jurisdiction will have initial carriage of the matter, and will determine if they need to kick it up for more help. That'll depend on how much info is known about the location/area, the accessibility thereof, and the available resources.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Online Blackadder1916

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 249,675
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,413
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/operations/military-operations/types/search-rescue/about.html
Quote
Canadian Armed Forces involvement
The Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) has the main responsibility for providing SAR from the air. It also coordinates the national response for air and maritime SAR. CAF assets are tasked to respond to about 1000 SAR missions every year.

Provincial and territorial governments are responsible for searches for missing persons including those who are lost or overdue on land or inland waters - commonly known as Ground Search and Rescue (GSAR). They delegate the authority for ground SAR response to the police services in the area. Parks Canada leads ground SAR in federal parks and preserves. The CAF may also help with ground SAR efforts, medical evacuations and other incidents where people are in distress. The provincial, territorial or municipal authority must ask for the help. The Canadian Rangers often help with ground SAR in sparsely settled regions of Canada, upon request.

https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/mrgnc-mngmnt/rspndng-mrgnc-vnts/nss/prgrm-en.aspx
Quote
Within Canada, SAR activities span a multitude of jurisdictions:

The Canadian Armed Forces are responsible for aeronautical incidents;
The Canadian Coast Guard is responsible for marine incidents;
Parks Canada is responsible within national parks; and
Provincial and territorial governments are responsible for searches for missing persons including those who are lost or overdue on land or inland waters - commonly known as Ground Search and Rescue (GSAR), and often delegated to the police service of jurisdiction.
15,000 specially trained air, ground and marine SAR volunteers provide response assistance to the authorities and deliver prevention messaging to the Canadian public to help minimize the frequency and severity of SAR incidents.  The Civil Air Search and Rescue Association (CASARA) assists the  Royal Canadian Air Force for aeronautical SAR; the Canadian Coast Guard Auxiliary (CCGA) assists the Canadian Coast Guard in marine SAR; and the Search and Rescue Volunteer Association of Canada (SARVAC) assists police forces of jurisdictions for ground based SAR.


And the Algonquin Provincial Park Management Plan
https://www.ontario.ca/page/algonquin-provincial-park-management-plan#section-9
Quote
Search and rescue operations are the responsibility of the Ontario Provincial Police, and Ministry staff assist when requested.

https://www.opp.ca/index.php?id=121
Quote
The OPP is trusted to:

provide air support for search and rescue, prisoner transport and investigation

Maybe the question should be, why doesn't the OPP (or other provincial government agency) not have the resources to respond to a GSAR incident.
Whisky for the gentlemen that like it. And for the gentlemen that don't like it - Whisky.

Offline Brihard

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 338,625
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,887
  • Non-Electric Pop-Up Target
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/operations/military-operations/types/search-rescue/about.html
https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/mrgnc-mngmnt/rspndng-mrgnc-vnts/nss/prgrm-en.aspx

And the Algonquin Provincial Park Management Plan
https://www.ontario.ca/page/algonquin-provincial-park-management-plan#section-9
https://www.opp.ca/index.php?id=121
Maybe the question should be, why doesn't the OPP (or other provincial government agency) not have the resources to respond to a GSAR incident.

They do, and regularly respond. But once in a while you need to throw a paramedic out of an aircraft at a mountain, and that’s not in the police toolbox. Police aviation assets suitable for the ‘search’ part are also limited and can easily be tied up elsewhere.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Online Blackadder1916

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 249,675
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,413
They do, and regularly respond. But once in a while you need to throw a paramedic out of an aircraft at a mountain, and that’s not in the police toolbox. Police aviation assets suitable for the ‘search’ part are also limited and can easily be tied up elsewhere.

" . . . (or other provincial government agency) not have the resources to respond to a GSAR incident. "
Whisky for the gentlemen that like it. And for the gentlemen that don't like it - Whisky.

Offline Brihard

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 338,625
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,887
  • Non-Electric Pop-Up Target
" . . . (or other provincial government agency) not have the resources to respond to a GSAR incident. "

I guess it comes down to who else’s mandate would it be? There’s not enough for for it to be a standing unit, nor is it usually going to require much specialized equipment or knowledge beyond a trained search manager, and some cops and volunteers who know the ground. Is the current system broken, or is the occasional reliance on CAF for the really bad ones a ‘good enough’?
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline FormerHorseGuard

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 12,595
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 552
This summer there has been at least 3 rescues using 424 out of Trenton assets. A lady fell down a water falls, they had to winch her out of the water, seriously hurt. A couple of guys were flipped out of their canoe on the Petawawa River rescued off an island in the river. Another man was rescued after getting hurt in the southern part of the park.

I was wondering who requests the assets from 424,  what  sort of alert time does the crew have? Or is like the movies the crew is sitting in room waiting for the call and run to the chopper and go?
Just wondered how it worked, etc

Offline kev994

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Full Member
  • *
  • 4,215
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 258
There’s typically 40 hours per week when the crew has 30 min response time, the rest is 2 hours. Those are maximum times and actual airborne times are often a fair bit quicker unless the mission is unusually complex.

Offline lenaitch

  • Member
  • ****
  • 9,775
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 141
As mentioned, in the case of Ontario, the lead agency for ground/inland marine incidents is the police service of jurisdiction; most normally the OPP so the request to the JRCC would come from them.  How they respond I will leave to others.  The OPP has extensively trained and equipped teams all over the province (certainly much better trained and equipped when I did it) plus 2x rotary and 2x fixed wing, although fixed wing is of limited utility.  They were working towards a third rotary but I imagine the last government budget cut killed that.  They can also call upon the MNRF as well as volunteer civilian SAR groups.  As far as know MNRF rotary lack FLIR and night vision capabilities.

Depending on the circumstances, military SAR is often called in for the 'rescue' part if the 'victim' cannot be ground extracted or the OPP helicopter cannot land in proximity.  No provincial asset, police, MNRF, air ambulance, is equipped, certified or trained for hoisting.  To do so would be extremely costly for the comparatively small number of times per year it is required.