Topic: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS

[Colin P]

We almost lost the Camsell to ice ripping her hull open. http://www.nauticapedia.ca/dbase/Query/Shiplist4.php?&name=Camsell%20%28C.C.G.S.%29&id=2412&Page=1&input=camsell


In the wee hours of September 10, 1978, while breaking ice near Jenny Lind Island (again those dangerous waters off King William Island) the CCG vessel Camsell slid off the frozen pack she was breaking, scraping her port side along an immovable shelf of multi-year ice. In the process, she sustained a mid-ship gash of approximately four metres long and a half metre wide allowing immediate flooding of her engine room. By mid-morning the water was up to her main deck. She was beached, patched and towed back by tug to Victoria where it took a year for officials to deliberate her fate and another year to repair her.

from: https://www.disegnojewellery.ca/pages/un-cut-version

[Fred Herriot]

BTW, when is the official christening ceremony for the Margaret Brooke?

[OceanBonfire]

Last weekend, we took our first new Arctic and Offshore Patrol Ship out for a test drive in Halifax! 🌊

Over the past few days, the future #HMCSHarryDeWolf underwent sea trials to assess major ship systems and performance. These trials are critical for ensuring that she is sea-ready and ship-shape to support Royal Canadian Navy operations once delivered.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/CanadianForces/posts/?ref=page_internal

https://twitter.com/CanadianForces/status/1224686555308138496

[Underway]

BTW, when is the official christening ceremony for the Margaret Brooke?

We don't christen them anymore.  Ceremonial naming is what happens.  As for the answer to your question I believe it will be this spring/summer when the weather gets better and HDW is out of the way (no data on that, just speculation).

[Czech_pivo]

Anyone have thoughts if they'll switch out the 25mm auto-cannons on the AOPS's as the 57's begin coming offline from the Halifax's?  Would certainly give the AOPS's a better ability to 'reach out and touch someone' if the need ever came about.

I don't see them reusing the 57's on whatever we build to replace the Kingston's, though I'd be happy if they did.

[LoboCanada]

Anyone have thoughts if they'll switch out the 25mm auto-cannons on the AOPS's as the 57's begin coming offline from the Halifax's?  Would certainly give the AOPS's a better ability to 'reach out and touch someone' if the need ever came about.

I don't see them reusing the 57's on whatever we build to replace the Kingston's, though I'd be happy if they did.

I think AOPS armament has been talked-to-death on here. They're pretty useless in terms of a fightin' anything up there. Anything that's in the arctic that wants a fight would likely be either a Sukhoi or a SSN - so you're buggered with a 25MM. IMHO 25MM seems to be there just to avoid the news article "new navy ship has no gunz" and for the "silent authority of a deck-mounted gun".

I can imagine in mid-life or emergency refit that you could turn an AOPS into a light-corvette without too much work (see below RN River Class Batch 2 article for comparison).
https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/enhancing-the-royal-navys-batch-ii-opvs/

This also theoretically work in an emergency on a Kingston Class - throw on a non-deck penetrating 40MM (2.3T), some fire-control radar, and replace the .50s with Miniguns.

40MM on the type 31s look impressive: 2.3 Tonnes, non-deck penetrating, 12KM range, acts as CIWS.

[daftandbarmy]

I think AOPS armament has been talked-to-death on here. They're pretty useless in terms of a fightin' anything up there. Anything that's in the arctic that wants a fight would likely be either a Sukhoi or a SSN - so you're buggered with a 25MM. IMHO 25MM seems to be there just to avoid the news article "new navy ship has no gunz" and for the "silent authority of a deck-mounted gun".

I can imagine in mid-life or emergency refit that you could turn an AOPS into a light-corvette without too much work (see below RN River Class Batch 2 article for comparison).
https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/enhancing-the-royal-navys-batch-ii-opvs/

This also theoretically work in an emergency on a Kingston Class - throw on a non-deck penetrating 40MM (2.3T), some fire-control radar, and replace the .50s with Miniguns.

40MM on the type 31s look impressive: 2.3 Tonnes, non-deck penetrating, 12KM range, acts as CIWS.

But what about missiles and torpedoes and stuff like that? I assume that they're pretty easy to bolt on as required, assuming we have them somewhere (says the Infantry guy who hasn't got a clue what he's talking about ).

[YZT580]

Certainly light deck armament is more than adequate for the north although some form of ground to air would perhaps be handy but the missions to Africa require or could require a much more robust response.  Provided the design permits a swap-out and provided the alternative systems are available in-house for installation as needed no problem but having the installation capability is useless if there are no systems in the warehouse and I haven't seen any procurement contracts that would suggest that this is being addressed.

[CloudCover]

Something like this (bolt on, highly functional gun/ missile combination). There’s not a surface combat ship in the RCN that wouldn’t benefit from having this type of system. And while the cost is pretty low, am sure DND and the procurement folks can make arrangements to transform it into the most expensive, unreliable, down levelled system in its class: https://youtu.be/iDjvc2r02V4

[daftandbarmy]

Something like this (bolt on, highly functional gun/ missile combination). There’s not a surface combat ship in the RCN that wouldn’t benefit from having this type of system. And while the cost is pretty low, am sure DND and the procurement folks can make arrangements to transform it into the most expensive, unreliable, down levelled system in its class: https://youtu.be/iDjvc2r02V4

You mean like the CTS program, but more important to national survival, right?

[Colin P]

I think AOPS armament has been talked-to-death on here. They're pretty useless in terms of a fightin' anything up there. Anything that's in the arctic that wants a fight would likely be either a Sukhoi or a SSN - so you're buggered with a 25MM. IMHO 25MM seems to be there just to avoid the news article "new navy ship has no gunz" and for the "silent authority of a deck-mounted gun".

I can imagine in mid-life or emergency refit that you could turn an AOPS into a light-corvette without too much work (see below RN River Class Batch 2 article for comparison).
https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/enhancing-the-royal-navys-batch-ii-opvs/

This also theoretically work in an emergency on a Kingston Class - throw on a non-deck penetrating 40MM (2.3T), some fire-control radar, and replace the .50s with Miniguns.

40MM on the type 31s look impressive: 2.3 Tonnes, non-deck penetrating, 12KM range, acts as CIWS.

Nice looking ships, now that the AOP's have the North, split the replacement of the Kingstons half for mine hunters and the half something like this.

[Underway]

You don't bolt on a 57mm. 

How are you going to target it?  57mm is a dual-use air and surface defensive weapon.  It requires an appropriate sensor suite to detect a target with enough accuracy to provide a fire control solution to a Combat Management System.  Its radar most likely would need to be upgraded.  The ship would need to upgrade its Combat Management System.  Despite perhaps some rumours out there to the contrary, the RCN isn't in the habit of putting weapon systems that never hit their targets onto ships.  Quite a bit of work has gone into the 57mm upgrade to allow it hit all the targets it needs to hit.

[OceanBonfire]

Delivery of first Arctic and offshore patrol ship delayed again


The delivery of the first Canadian Arctic and offshore patrol ship (AOPS) has been delayed once again, the Department of National Defence confirmed to Global News on Monday.

A spokesperson for the Department of National Defence said building "a new class of ships is very complex" and that the additional time is necessary "to ensure that all remaining work and tasks... are completed optimally."

"Although we had predicted the first delivery for Winter 2020, the schedule has slightly shifted to Spring 2020," Daniel Lebouthillier said in a statement.

The first vessel, HMCS Harry DeWolfe, was scheduled to be delivered by the end of March and this is only the latest in a series of delays for the vessel.

The original plan was to have Irving Shipbuilding in Halifax deliver the ship in 2018, before the date was pushed to the end of 2019 and then the first three months of 2020.

Labouthillier said that it is the department's objective to have the vessel delivered before summer. That gives Irving roughly three more months, although DND admitted that there is still a chance for the delivery date to change.

The delay will also put the timeline for the delivery of the next vessel in flux, although DND says lessons are being learned from the construction of the first vessel that will benefit the seven additional vessels to come.

Lebouthillier said the timeline for delivery on the remaining vessels is still being assessed, and updates will be shared once available.

Construction of the third and fourth vessel is already underway.


https://globalnews.ca/news/6649765/delivery-first-arctic-and-offshore-patrol-ship-delayed/

[YZT580]

Is anyone knowledgeable on the reason for the delays?  Structural, design flaws, construction errors or only a re-arranging of the deck chairs as a result of the trial runs?

[Colin P]

You don't bolt on a 57mm. 

How are you going to target it?  57mm is a dual-use air and surface defensive weapon.  It requires an appropriate sensor suite to detect a target with enough accuracy to provide a fire control solution to a Combat Management System.  Its radar most likely would need to be upgraded.  The ship would need to upgrade its Combat Management System.  Despite perhaps some rumours out there to the contrary, the RCN isn't in the habit of putting weapon systems that never hit their targets onto ships.  Quite a bit of work has gone into the 57mm upgrade to allow it hit all the targets it needs to hit.

Funny how other navies build this type of ship with those systems installed. How do they plan to control the 25mm?

[Underway]

Is anyone knowledgeable on the reason for the delays?  Structural, design flaws, construction errors or only a re-arranging of the deck chairs as a result of the trial runs?

Oddly enough during trials, they are finding things that aren't working as they should!  I also think  Irving isn't that experienced with builders trials so assume they are screwing up and learning as they go. 

Funny how other navies build this type of ship with those systems installed. How do they plan to control the 25mm?

Sure installed.  What are they going to hit without proper fire control? Full of sound and fury signifying nothing.  25mm is EO targeted using a control station on the bridge IIRC.

[Colin P]

Sure installed.  What are they going to hit without proper fire control? Full of sound and fury signifying nothing.  25mm is EO targeted using a control station on the bridge IIRC.

I was actually referring to the Fire Control systems other navies have fitted to their ships and why we didn't?

[Czech_pivo]

Oddly enough during trials, they are finding things that aren't working as they should!  I also think  Irving isn't that experienced with builders trials so assume they are screwing up and learning as they go. 

Sure installed.  What are they going to hit without proper fire control? Full of sound and fury signifying nothing.  25mm is EO targeted using a control station on the bridge IIRC.

Kind of like putting 40mm WWII era Bofors on the Kingston's? Where was their proper fire control?  Guess that's why they were stripped on them a few years back, only after 20yrs of them being bolted on.

[Colin P]

AOP's #3