Author Topic: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad  (Read 13748 times)

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Offline boot12

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Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #100 on: March 07, 2019, 00:06:53 »
The Norwegians are undoubtedly struggling with the interrelated problem of recruitment/retention/training/experience/expertise. This is a complicated question which is likely affecting all navies to some extent, including our own.

To your point - have a read of this article.  I cannot comment on the validity of the information.

https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2018/11/22/gender-politics-and-sinking-of-knm-helge-ingstad.html

That said, the above blog post (I hesitate to call it an article) first made the rounds shortly after the incident and is really just a load of unsubstantiated garbage which invents "evidence" to support the author's predetermined sexist conclusions.

If you read the comments on the original blog post (strategic-culture is just a re-host) you'll quickly wade into a cesspool of misogyny, red-pilling and bizarre speculation about menstrual cycles. From a quick Google search of the article title it appears that the post got the majority of its traction elsewhere on the internet on various right wing blogs and forums looking to take a regressive stance on the role of women in modern society.

The only data point it draws on is a public affairs article written at least a year prior to the incident, which is a long time in a typical ship's posting cycle. From experience, low female representation in highly skilled positions within the RCN is a recruitment issue vice a talent one. Women who enrol and enter the system as NWOs experience no significant difference in success rate in training or on operations than their male colleagues. Norway's use of conscription likely addresses the enrolment challenge to some extent, making it unsurprising that their ships have women employed in demanding positions.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #101 on: March 07, 2019, 00:42:35 »
I have served on ships with female bridge officers and found them to be fine. The biggest issue with woman on a ship or in the camp is the younger ones who occupy non-management jobs and are busy enjoying a high male to female environment and causing havoc while they do it. I have also seen where a more maternal women even at these lower end jobs can have a very beneficial effect by providing good advice and demanding a certain level of decorum. 

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #102 on: March 07, 2019, 07:03:21 »
That article is just drivel.

There are very few things going on in a warship today that require brute strength, where the average male would have an advantage over the average female. None of those few things relate to any of the watch keeping activities. These require knowledge, skill and experience - things found equally in both male and female (and any other identity of your liking  ;)).

There is, however, an aspect of the H.I. incident that I have not seen mentioned anywhere and is pretty typical of all navies: Homeward Bound Syndrome. The ship was coming back from a large NATO exercise, the crew had worked hard for a few weeks, going through war like drills and had performed well. There was feeling of "invincibility" from having survived that, etc. etc. Then, you are going home back to family and friend. It's night, there are no drills planned, just a few hours and you are there, it's your home waters you know like the back of your hand and you've been there a hundred times. In those circumstances, the atmosphere on the bridge is relaxed, almost idyllic, everybody is smiling and the minds are wandering. And the crew on the bridge fails to assess the situation properly and disaster strike.

The syndrome is real and all who have sailed in warship know it. Personally, I always made sure I was on the bridge for the last 50 to 100 N.M. of such a return home. I always claimed (for my OOW's consumption) that it was because I just wanted to enjoy the last bit of home waters. It was actually because I knew the crew relaxed too much sometimes at the end like that.

Offline IN ARDUA NITOR

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Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #103 on: March 07, 2019, 07:58:31 »

The syndrome is real and all who have sailed in warship know it. Personally, I always made sure I was on the bridge for the last 50 to 100 N.M. of such a return home. I always claimed (for my OOW's consumption) that it was because I just wanted to enjoy the last bit of home waters. It was actually because I knew the crew relaxed too much sometimes at the end like that.

Every time we returned home I would do the same - on each occasion in my night orders is written "call me 30 minutes prior to entering the traffic lanes IVO Buoy J" - often the XO and I would enjoy a coffee or six on the bridge (or on the gun deck in summer months) to reminisce about the delpoyment/ex and to provide that little extra oversight. It proved a prescient measure on almost every occasion (particularly during open fishery windows)

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #104 on: March 07, 2019, 13:22:46 »
The Air Force calls it “get home-itis...”  People have died because of it.  It can be unforgiving...the crew were lucky that night.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Loss of Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad
« Reply #105 on: March 07, 2019, 14:02:05 »
The Air Force calls it “get home-itis...”  People have died because of it.  It can be unforgiving...the crew were lucky that night.

That is a brilliantly apt term  :nod:
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon