Author Topic: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy  (Read 801282 times)

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Online JMCanada

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2350 on: August 18, 2018, 06:03:54 »
To be fair, it does happen...

I wouldn't instantly flame the yard...just make sure they are aware of the problem, fix it, and make the necessary changes so it's fixed in the future also.

Very reasonable & sensible reply.

I worked once in a nuclear plant at the time of refueling, the condenser had to be reworked (where pure water cools the radioactive steam circuit).

There were hundreds of welds and of course a few of them came out wrong. The matter is to ensure by different means (including X-rays) that each and every weld is ammended and perfectly seals the two elements. Then the work can go on to next step.

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2351 on: August 18, 2018, 09:46:42 »
Indeed.  That's the purpose of a QA system within a production framework.  The fact that it appears as though the flaws were identical across hull numbers and that the welding process/equipment involved was identified and replaced means the systems is working.  I say good on VSI for not shying away from acknowledging the issue and addressing what's being done to resolve the issue and prevent its occurrence in the future.

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G2G

Offline Underway

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2352 on: August 18, 2018, 20:51:54 »
Indeed.  That's the purpose of a QA system within a production framework.  The fact that it appears as though the flaws were identical across hull numbers and that the welding process/equipment involved was identified and replaced means the systems is working.  I say good on VSI for not shying away from acknowledging the issue and addressing what's being done to resolve the issue and prevent its occurrence in the future.

Regards
G2G

Fully agree.  Far worse that bad welds get past QA and leads to all the problems that might cause.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2353 on: August 19, 2018, 12:25:20 »
Fully agree.  Far worse that bad welds get past QA and leads to all the problems that might cause.

Quality is all about leadership, of course:

"The aim of leadership should be to improve the performance of man and machine, to improve quality, to increase output, and simultaneously to bring pride of workmanship to people. Put in a negative way, the aim of leadership is not merely to find and record failures of men, but to remove the causes of failure: to help people to do a better job with less effort.”

W. Edwards Deming
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2354 on: August 19, 2018, 19:29:22 »
Quality is all about leadership, of course:

"The aim of leadership should be to improve the performance of man and machine, to improve quality, to increase output, and simultaneously to bring pride of workmanship to people. Put in a negative way, the aim of leadership is not merely to find and record failures of men, but to remove the causes of failure: to help people to do a better job with less effort.”

W. Edwards Deming

Nice touch, daftandbarmy.

I had to study  In Search of Excellence too, when I was doing my graduate diploma in administration. So you and I both know that Deming is not using the word leadership to denote the activity of guiding and motivating others (as we would use it in the military) but as noun to designate the upper management of a company as an identified group of people. Basically he is saying that constantly improving quality of the product is the main task of the upper management of a company. He had studied the Japanese post war corporate world after all.  ;) 

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2355 on: August 19, 2018, 20:33:51 »
Nice touch, daftandbarmy.

I had to study  In Search of Excellence too, when I was doing my graduate diploma in administration. So you and I both know that Deming is not using the word leadership to denote the activity of guiding and motivating others (as we would use it in the military) but as noun to designate the upper management of a company as an identified group of people. Basically he is saying that constantly improving quality of the product is the main task of the upper management of a company. He had studied the Japanese post war corporate world after all.  ;)

Yup. He also said:

'Under no circumstances should we export North American management styles to a friendly country.'

Which is right on the nose with respect to what it takes to properly manage systems and processes to ensure high quality products and services.
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2356 on: August 19, 2018, 20:49:37 »
Still slightly :off topic:

It's rather a pity, in a way, that the Asians, especially the Japanese and Koreans read and listened to Deming in the 1960s while American industrial "leaders" decided, in the 1950s, to ignore him and go with concepts like Planned Obsolescence instead.

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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2357 on: August 20, 2018, 12:43:59 »
America followed the example of the Paris Salons - new fashions for every season.

The personal computing market seems to have followed the same trend as well.  Why create something that won't breakdown for 10 years if the technology is going to be obsolete in 6 months?

Makes you wonder about building ships and aircraft for 40 years ......
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Online LoboCanada

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2358 on: August 20, 2018, 16:53:40 »
America followed the example of the Paris Salons - new fashions for every season.

The personal computing market seems to have followed the same trend as well.  Why create something that won't breakdown for 10 years if the technology is going to be obsolete in 6 months?

Makes you wonder about building ships and aircraft for 40 years ......

Never thought of that before, thanks.

SHouldnt it be written in (maybe in the 'shakeup' coming up) that after every 3 CSCs Irving builds, that there be a new 'Flight' or 'MK' made? What good is it to build a 2025-era CSC for $2Billion or whatever in 2040 if its using 15-20 year old tech?

Strong-Secure-Engaged = Obsolete, Unsafe, Late

Offline Uzlu

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2359 on: August 20, 2018, 17:18:57 »
SHouldnt it be written in (maybe in the 'shakeup' coming up) that after every 3 CSCs Irving builds, that there be a new 'Flight' or 'MK' made?
Yes.  I think it might be five blocks of three—somewhat similar to what was done with the St. Laurent, Restigouche, Mackenzie, and Annapolis-class ships.  I think it might be five classes of ships having a common hull and propulsion machinery. 

Online Czech_pivo

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2360 on: August 20, 2018, 21:42:52 »
Basically he is saying that constantly improving quality of the product is the main task of the upper management of a company. He had studied the Japanese post war corporate world after all.  ;)

It’s “Kaizen” that you’re referring to.  Something that when I worked in Boston for a large US firm back in the late 90’s was all the rage. ‘Small, constant change for the good.’  Something that I tell my kids to focus on - try for constant small improvements.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2361 on: August 21, 2018, 00:26:18 »
Kaizen having been learnt by the Japanese from the Americans Deming and Shewhart and then sold back to the Americans by Americans who went to Japan to learn how to build cars the American way.

Thus demonstrating both that nothing gets forgotten and everything gets forgotten.
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Offline Swampbuggy

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2362 on: August 22, 2018, 08:33:54 »
I only took issue with the hyperbole not the thoughts behind it.  Completely agree that there needs to be a more speedy delivery.  The Halifax Class were designed for 25 years.  We are there now and dealing with massive corrosion issues across the fleet (mostly on the East Coast, mainly due to different deck coverings oddly enough). 

Having Davie fill gaps in the Coast Guard is an excellent idea.  The fleets are so run down there is plenty of work for everyone right now.  As for Kingston replacements those boats are doing rather well.  FMF and the contractors are doing a good job to keep them going.  I haven't heard a single person in the RCN talk about Kingston replacement as a concern (yet), though I have heard talk about sub replacement since Strong Secure Engaged came out (even floating the Australia will be looking for partners discussion).

The MCDV’s are ok for now, as you say, but they’ll likely need replacement prior to either ISI or VSY completing their ongoing projects with AOPS, CSC, all the CCG stuff etc. When that time comes, and the other shipyards are still tied up, it looks like Davie will be in a good spot to get the gig. I wonder, though, about the 1000 tonne and under clause. If all other yards are restricted to building ships under 1000 tonnes, does that not limit the options for an MCDV replacement? I’m aware that as they stand, the KINGSTON’s are under that limit, but I would think the next vessel to take their place may want to include things like a helo pad, for instance. Is there an OPV class out there that can land (but not necessarily hangar) a helo AND weighs less than 1000 tonnes? I don’t believe I’ve seen or heard of one. Anyway, I have an uneasy feeling that caveat may stick in our throats at some point.

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2363 on: August 22, 2018, 10:04:54 »
Why would we want to operate a helo off a ship that small? Why not just spec it for some sort of UAV right off the bat?

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2364 on: August 22, 2018, 10:18:04 »
Why would we want to operate a helo off a ship that small? Why not just spec it for some sort of UAV right off the bat?

That’s exactly my point. I’ve heard a million times how small size is one of the main drawbacks of the MCDV.  That and speed. So, one would project that whatever is to replace it, whenever that may be, a larger ship is likely to be favoured. But, that clause of the 1000 tonne limit for any shipyard outside of ISI or VSY means that you will realistically have to wait 20 years for a new patrol ship, or that it will be small again and without the ability to land a helo. I’m not saying it’s a necessity, but certainly the option to use an OPV as a lily pad is appealing. What it boils down to is that the clause limits what we can do, either time wise or capability wise, and I think that may cause problems.

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2365 on: August 22, 2018, 10:22:27 »
That’s exactly my point. I’ve heard a million times how small size is one of the main drawbacks of the MCDV.  That and speed. So, one would project that whatever is to replace it, whenever that may be, a larger ship is likely to be favoured. But, that clause of the 1000 tonne limit for any shipyard outside of ISI or VSY means that you will realistically have to wait 20 years for a new patrol ship, or that it will be small again and without the ability to land a helo. I’m not saying it’s a necessity, but certainly the option to use an OPV as a lily pad is appealing. What it boils down to is that the clause limits what we can do, either time wise or capability wise, and I think that may cause problems.

My point is that, sometimes the juice ain't worth the squeeze.

Find a nice UAV that we all like and build that into your 1000 tonne limit. Even with the current crop of UAVs on the market, we can get some eye watering sensors and maybe even arm it.

Offline Lumber

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2366 on: August 22, 2018, 10:49:29 »
We could go for a Visby-Calass or Hamina-Class, or even a Sa'ar 5. If we wanted to go over the 1000T limiit, we could go with something like a River-Class and you'd get your flight deck.
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2367 on: August 22, 2018, 11:20:19 »
What do you want the ship to do?

Do you want the ship to be a patrol vessel - in which case a small vessel with a lot of launchers and missiles, including UAVs (ranging in size from Scan Eagles to "Flying Peanuts") are viable options.

Or do you want to increase the functionality and operational area of the helicopter fleet - allowing it to be deployed and sustained for longer periods in remote locations - in which case adding lily-pads to every suitable vessel makes sense.

A suitable vessel?  Anything that costs a lot of money should have a lily pad.    Small vessels should not cost a lot of money and thus should not necessarily have lily pads.

Conversely lily pads do not need to cost a lot of money even when large lily pads.  They only end up costing a lot of money when militarized.   Civil lily pads could be large and cheap - except when flying the Maple Leaf.

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Offline Swampbuggy

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2368 on: August 22, 2018, 11:26:45 »
My point is that, sometimes the juice ain't worth the squeeze.

Find a nice UAV that we all like and build that into your 1000 tonne limit. Even with the current crop of UAVs on the market, we can get some eye watering sensors and maybe even arm it.

I get that, I’m just a bit worried that a sheet of paper effectively ties the hands of the RCN in choosing what and when it gets a replacement for the MCDV. I understand completely that UAV’s are likely to take over many roles that were traditionally tasked to a helo. But, they can’t do everything, like personnel transfer for example. And with a deck you can perhaps refuel a chopper and increase time on station or range. At any rate, I was just using the helo deck as an example of how the choices could be limited. There are others as well. Maybe ice strengthening vs armament or sensor packages could be another area where the options get limited by the build restrictions on tonnage. For myself, I’m ok with something fast, simple and relatively small. Something like an ARMIDALE with 2 good RHIB’s and a UAV would be well under a 1000 tonnes and very useful for the RCN. Hey, maybe we can get OZ to throw them in with the used F-18’s and we can have Davie refit them! 😜

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2369 on: August 22, 2018, 11:32:49 »
We could go for a Visby-Calass or Hamina-Class, or even a Sa'ar 5. If we wanted to go over the 1000T limiit, we could go with something like a River-Class and you'd get your flight deck.

Wow that Hamina-Class is impressive. Only 250T? Maybe get the propulsion of the MCDVs, stretch it for a light (CCG) helicopter or UAV. Maybe then it'll be an expensive-enough to Canadianize it. Just day-dreaming...

Offline Swampbuggy

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2370 on: August 22, 2018, 12:17:38 »
We could go for a Visby-Calass or Hamina-Class, or even a Sa'ar 5. If we wanted to go over the 1000T limiit, we could go with something like a River-Class and you'd get your flight deck.

Sure, but that gets you back to waiting in line for VSY and ISI to finish their queues. Maybe you could pull the CCG OPV’s from VSY and give them to Davie, if they’re going to be less than 1000 tonnes, and then in turn get VSY to build some 1500-2000 tonne RCN OPV’s. That would be a bit quicker than waiting for 20+ years and it fulfills the contract stipulations.

Offline Underway

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2371 on: August 22, 2018, 13:22:30 »
We could go for a Visby-Calass or Hamina-Class, or even a Sa'ar 5. If we wanted to go over the 1000T limiit, we could go with something like a River-Class and you'd get your flight deck.

I shudder when thinking about what happens to the crew and equipment on those tiny Baltic ships on the Grand Banks.  River class is more the type I would like for an MCDV replacement.  Small crew, limited weapons, Helo/UAV pad, good seakeeping, decent legs and speed.  A suitable gun or two.  But that's only for Offshore patrol.  If you want minehunting then you need to be a bit more creative, as MCDV's are near the top of size for minehunting platforms.  Most minehunting platforms are about 500 tons or so and would really suffer in open waters off the east coast.

Offline Uzlu

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2372 on: August 22, 2018, 13:34:42 »
Sure, but that gets you back to waiting in line for VSY and ISI to finish their queues. Maybe you could pull the CCG OPV’s from VSY and give them to Davie, if they’re going to be less than 1000 tonnes, and then in turn get VSY to build some 1500-2000 tonne RCN OPV’s. That would be a bit quicker than waiting for 20+ years and it fulfills the contract stipulations.
If Davie is allowed to build large ships for the coast guard and navy, there is no need to wait for Seaspan to finish its queue.  The Seaspan offshore patrol vessels will be more than 1000 tonnes—that is why Seaspan will be building them.  If the navy wants offshore patrol vessels—not more Harry DeWolfs—it might make sense to build them for the coast guard and navy—one design and lots of ships to drive down the cost per ship.

Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2373 on: August 22, 2018, 13:49:03 »
As some has already stated a replacement for the Kingston Class is not being looked at right now. I would say we could easily get another 10 to 15 years out of the class and they"re being modernized all the time. In fact I just spent the last month on one of them in the high Arctic and they are in pretty good shape. The problem is that the class is being asked to do two roles, one as a mine warfare type utility ship and that of a patrol ship. I can't see the RCN going with a fast patrol ship as a Kingston Class replacement. To replace the class we need two classes of ships not one.
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Offline Swampbuggy

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2374 on: August 22, 2018, 13:58:30 »
If Davie is allowed to build large ships for the coast guard and navy, there is no need to wait for Seaspan to finish its queue.  The Seaspan offshore patrol vessels will be more than 1000 tonnes—that is why Seaspan will be building them.  If the navy wants offshore patrol vessels—not more Harry DeWolfs—it might make sense to build them for the coast guard and navy—one design and lots of ships to drive down the cost per ship.

That’s the problem, nobody (outside of Seaspan and Irving)  can “build” large ships, Davie included, if they’re over 1000t. That’s a stipulation of the NSS. That’s why ISI started going sideways when the G said a refresher might be in the works for NSS. They’re worried that clauses like this one may get “reworked” and allow Davie to horn in on their action.