Author Topic: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy  (Read 857080 times)

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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2500 on: December 16, 2018, 12:23:54 »
Or even charter half a dozen of these



Perhaps including some design element from this

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/21261/americas-elusive-special-operations-mothership-is-packing-stealth-speedboats
« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 12:30:39 by Chris Pook »
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Offline Cloud Cover

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2501 on: December 16, 2018, 19:45:35 »
Charter?  Why, when we could build one in not less than 35 years.
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Offline Cloud Cover

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2502 on: December 16, 2018, 21:48:08 »
And for the prize, what class of warship is tied up astern (port) in that picture.
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Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2503 on: December 17, 2018, 07:15:26 »
🤔.   Royal Navy Type 23? 


Offline Cloud Cover

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strateg
« Reply #2504 on: December 17, 2018, 10:54:39 »
I thought so to, but the gun mount seems too close the fo’csle and it doesn’t look like a 4.5”. The deck equipment doesn’t seem right either. What little can be seen of it, anyway. I was thinking one of the German designed corvettes. 
But Type  23 seems to be the best gues, perhaps the image is distorting the view too much.
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Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strateg
« Reply #2505 on: December 17, 2018, 12:12:22 »
I thought so to, but the gun mount seems too close the fo’csle and it doesn’t look like a 4.5”. The deck equipment doesn’t seem right either. What little can be seen of it, anyway. I was thinking one of the German designed corvettes. 
But Type  23 seems to be the best gues, perhaps the image is distorting the view too much.

I agree, it was a quick guess.  I initially thought it could have been a MOD 0 gun.   It is not a Type 23.   Reverse image search on "the google" indicates that this photo was taken in Mare Harbour, Falkland Islands.

Here's the same pic from a different angle.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 12:19:45 by Dolphin_Hunter »

Offline garb811

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2506 on: December 17, 2018, 12:47:55 »
Looks like the Type 22, HMS Chatham by the hull number.

HMS Chatham

Offline Cloud Cover

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2507 on: December 17, 2018, 15:03:31 »
yup. There you go!
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Offline JMCanada

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2508 on: January 09, 2019, 13:30:19 »
Back to the "poll"... I would go for two new ships based on the AOPS but fitted for/as  submarine rescue and ocean-going tugs.

Just by chance, one month later, I come across these ... T-ATS (X) being built for the US Navy:
https://mobile.navaltoday.com/2019/01/09/us-navys-new-t-atsx-class-vessels-to-feature-macgregor-deck-machinery/

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://web.mit.edu/2n/Abst-ExecSum/2009/Design/T-ATS(X).pdf

At the end of the day some basic features are not so far from the AOPS.
But still there would be so many differences as to make a risky project to launch two similar vessels on time and budget.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 15:09:08 by JMCanada »

Offline Uzlu

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2509 on: January 16, 2019, 07:18:43 »
Quote
Business group wants National Shipbuilding Strategy reopened for Quebec shipyard

Association puts pressure on Liberals to direct new projects to Davie yard

A Quebec-based business association claiming to represent over 1,000 companies inside and outside the province is launching a high-profile campaign to convince the Liberal government to reopen the oft-maligned National Shipbuilding Strategy.

The group is demanding the federal government include the Davie shipyard, in Levis, Que., in the policy and plans to make it a major issue in the October federal election.

The Association of Davie Shipbuilding Suppliers, which has been around for about a year, represents companies that do business with the shipyard.

It plans an online campaign, beginning Thursday, and will lobby chambers of commerce as well as federal and provincial politicians.

It is hoping to use its extensive membership and thousands of associated jobs to put pressure on the government in an election year to direct the building of additional coast guard ships exclusively to the Quebec yard, one of the oldest in the country.

The shipbuilding strategy, conceived under the previous Conservative government but embraced by the Liberals, has turned into a giant sinkhole for federal cash with little to show for it, Simon Maltais, the association's vice-president, told CBC News.

"We can call it a boondoggle," he said. "It has been seven years in the making. At the moment, there is absolutely no operational ship afloat and working for Canada."

The Conservatives under former prime minister Stephen Harper chose two shipyards — Irving Shipbuilding of Halifax and Seaspan in Vancouver — as the government's go-to companies for the construction of new warships and civilian vessels.

The Davie shipyard was, at the time, emerging from bankruptcy, and under the strategy it only became eligible for repair and refit work on existing vessels and perhaps the construction of smaller vessels.

Delays and cost overruns

Irving and Seaspan have invested hundreds of millions of dollars in modernizing their yards and have just begun to produce new vessels.

The first Arctic offshore patrol ship for the navy is being outfitted in Halifax and others are in various stages of construction.

Three offshore fisheries science vessels, constructed in Vancouver for the coast guard, are undergoing repairs after defective welds were discovered last year.

The entire program has been beset with delays and rising cost estimates.

Last year, Public Services and Procurement Canada refused to release a revised timeline for the delivery of ships from Seaspan, including construction of a heavy icebreaker and the navy's two joint support ships.

Politics and shipbuilding

Maltais said it makes no sense to keep excluding Davie from full-fledged ship construction work when much of the coast fleet is over three decades old and in dire need of replacement.

Refreshing the strategy would insure the federal government gets the ships it needs and Quebec companies "get their fair share" of the program.

"We know it's an electoral year and, yes, we want the federal government and the people in the election to talk about it," he said.

Maltais clams members of his association have been talking to federal politicians on both sides of the aisle in the province and they support the idea.

"They seem to be on the same page as us," he said.

Defence analyst Dave Perry, an expert in procurement and the shipbuilding program, said the political campaign has the potential to make the federal government uncomfortable, but he doubts it will achieve the objective of reopening the strategy to add a third shipyard.

"That would certainly be a major change in the strategy," he said. "There had been a view of doing something less than that."

The proposal being put forward by the association would not take any work from Halifax or Vancouver, but instead direct all new work, on additional icebreakers for example, to the Quebec yard.

Just recently, Davie was awarded a contract to convert three civilian icebreakers for coast guard use, but the association argues the need is greater.

The federal government did debate an overhaul of the strategy, according to documents obtained and published by CBC News last summer.

The size and scope of the "policy refresh" was not made clear in a heavily redacted memo, dated Jan. 23, 2018.

So far, nothing has taken place and government officials have insisted they were still committed to the two-yard strategy.

During the last election campaign, the Liberals pledged to fix the "broken" procurement system and invest heavily in the navy.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/national-shipbuilding-strategy-reopen-1.4979592

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2510 on: January 16, 2019, 07:41:52 »
Notwithstanding the politics of it all, and there's a lot at the national and provincial levels, it is, now, over 10 years since Stephen Harper ordered the creation of the National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy and it probably is time to review its progress and foundations.

There were very good business reasons to have excluded Davie from the process in 2008/09 (the 'strategy' was implemented in 2010, after two years of preparation): Davie was near bankruptcy, again, at least partially, in my opinion, because it had been coddled by successive federal and Quebec governments for a generation, ever since Pierre Trudeau introduced 'fiscal federalism' back in the 1970s. Davie was awarded contracts even when their bid was, clearly, non-compliant because (at least through the 1980s and into the 1990s) 25% of all major crown project money had to be, usually, spent in Quebec ... they were not the only beneficiaries, but they suffered for it by virtue of being large and visible and they fell into some dreadfully bad management habits as a result.

Well, Davie has new (foreign) owners who are adept at playing the Quebec card but seem, for now, at least to me, to be competent engineers and businessmen ... and that's a nice change.

A sensible prime minister might say to his Clerk: "look, the NSPS is serving us well, but let's take a second look at it to see if the assumptions of ten years ago are still valid."
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Offline FSTO

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2511 on: January 16, 2019, 07:51:18 »
A sensible prime minister might say to his Clerk: "look, the NSPS is serving us well, but let's take a second look at it to see if the assumptions of ten years ago are still valid."

Unfortunately we are sadly deficient in that department. :(

Offline Uzlu

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2512 on: January 16, 2019, 20:25:25 »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS_ivAA6BBs&feature=youtu.be
Incidentally, I think Trudeau and the Liberals will do nothing to modify the national shipbuilding strategy.

Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2513 on: January 16, 2019, 21:19:24 »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS_ivAA6BBs&feature=youtu.be
Incidentally, I think Trudeau and the Liberals will do nothing to modify the national shipbuilding strategy.

Grasping at straws Davie is, this may backfire on them.
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

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Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2514 on: January 16, 2019, 21:22:40 »
Notwithstanding the politics of it all, and there's a lot at the national and provincial levels, it is, now, over 10 years since Stephen Harper ordered the creation of the National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy and it probably is time to review its progress and foundations.

There were very good business reasons to have excluded Davie from the process in 2008/09 (the 'strategy' was implemented in 2010, after two years of preparation): Davie was near bankruptcy, again, at least partially, in my opinion, because it had been coddled by successive federal and Quebec governments for a generation, ever since Pierre Trudeau introduced 'fiscal federalism' back in the 1970s. ...


That's actually a misconception; I'll post the link below, but originally 5 shipyards were shortlisted, and only 3 (including Davie) submitted bids.  The three bids were scored, with the two shipyards selected.  The parlimentary record has a pretty good summary.

https://lop.parl.ca/sites/PublicWebsite/default/en_CA/ResearchPublications/201535E

I guess one thing to keep in mind is it is a 30+ year strategy, and the contracting mechanisms etc were based around some specific goals.  Makes perfect sense to relook at things, but Canada does have a contractual arrangement with each shipyard, so if want to change tack now, you may need to do some renegotiation with the shipyards.

Another important point is that both shipyards had to modernize their facility after they were awarded with the NSPS contracts, and that took about 2-2.5 years. That's something Davie would have also had to have done, so if they do roll under the NSS and same rules apply, it's not like they would be cutting steel the next day.  (see sections 2.2 of attached report for an overview)

For non-navy types, for the differences between a repair yard and a modern build yard, think a car assembly line versus a garage.  Totally different beasts with different skill sets, equipment and facilities needed (as well as a totally different balance of the various trades).  You could do it in existing facilities, but the reason why it was a 'strategy' was the long term goal was to have Canadian shipyards that could meet our own fleet needs, but also be competitive enough to be able to eventually take outside orders on the books. That was the 25-30 year end state goal (that is explained in the overview of the attached article), but not really a sexy timeline if you are looking at accomplishments over a four year term.

 :cheers:

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2515 on: January 16, 2019, 21:30:21 »
"reason why it was a 'strategy' was the long term goal was to have Canadian shipyards that could meet our own fleet needs, but also be competitive enough to be able to eventually take outside orders on the books."

And someday pigs will swim submerged for a long time and live. How can we keep so deluding ourselves?

Mark
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Offline ModlrMike

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2516 on: January 16, 2019, 21:36:17 »
The singular flaw with the national ship building program is the failure to recognize that Irving Shipbuilding believes they're the only ones who should be building ships in Canada.
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Offline NavyShooter

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2517 on: January 16, 2019, 21:52:24 »

The singular flaw with the national ship building program is the failure to recognize that Irving Shipbuilding believes they're the only ones who should be building ships in Canada.


Despite the fact that they can't even do a refit that doesn't require 20,000-100,000 hours of additional maintenance time to complete once the ship gets back into RCN hands.


I use the terms 'wilful and deliberate' when I discuss the sabotage refits that I've been involved with from a certain shipyard in Nova Scotia.


NS
Insert disclaimer statement here....

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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2518 on: January 16, 2019, 23:00:28 »
Grasping at straws Davie is, this may backfire on them.

You wouldn't be saying that if you knew the state of the Coast Guard fleet.

The RCN is shipshape in Bristol fashion compared to the poor Coast Guard. It needs ships and it really, really needs them now!

Besides, what would be wrong with another Asterix, even if we still get two JSS's?

Funny enough, she has been operating now for what, a year? and I have not seen or heard a single negative thing about her. Not one!

Offline Colin P

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2519 on: January 17, 2019, 00:28:03 »
"reason why it was a 'strategy' was the long term goal was to have Canadian shipyards that could meet our own fleet needs, but also be competitive enough to be able to eventually take outside orders on the books."

And someday pigs will swim submerged for a long time and live. How can we keep so deluding ourselves?

Mark
Ottawa

There hasn't been a major Federal ship order on the westcoast that I can recall since the 2x 500 class built in the late 80-early 90's, the west coast yards had to compete for everything, even provincial ferry contracts.

Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2520 on: January 17, 2019, 07:26:52 »
You wouldn't be saying that if you knew the state of the Coast Guard fleet.

The RCN is shipshape in Bristol fashion compared to the poor Coast Guard. It needs ships and it really, really needs them now!

Besides, what would be wrong with another Asterix, even if we still get two JSS's?

Funny enough, she has been operating now for what, a year? and I have not seen or heard a single negative thing about her. Not one!

I have operated with the CG at times and have plenty of friends who work with the CG. I know they need new ships. All I'm saying is that Davie seems like the proverbial sore loser on the NSS putting out press releases offering unsolicited cut rate prices on ship conversions and slick videos on how bad the competition is and how good they are.  Will this campaign work, getting them a slice of the NSS pie?, perhaps however it also maybe be driving the government away from giving them anything else. You might want to ask yourself with a PM who has strong ties to Quebec and with an election coming up is not pandering to Davie and getting them the contracts for new builds and we all know how he loves to pander. I personally would say its the same reason why the second Asterix type conversion is not being built.

As for Asterix you are right you haven't seen a single negative thing about her publicly.
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

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Offline Czech_pivo

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2521 on: January 17, 2019, 09:51:02 »
I have operated with the CG at times and have plenty of friends who work with the CG. I know they need new ships. All I'm saying is that Davie seems like the proverbial sore loser on the NSS putting out press releases offering unsolicited cut rate prices on ship conversions and slick videos on how bad the competition is and how good they are.  Will this campaign work, getting them a slice of the NSS pie?, perhaps however it also maybe be driving the government away from giving them anything else. You might want to ask yourself with a PM who has strong ties to Quebec and with an election coming up is not pandering to Davie and getting them the contracts for new builds and we all know how he loves to pander. I personally would say its the same reason why the second Asterix type conversion is not being built.

As for Asterix you are right you haven't seen a single negative thing about her publicly.

So if Davie doesn't build the required new Coast Guard ships, since they average over 30yrs old, then who is going to build them?

This all comes down to capacity - and neither Seaspan nor Irving has any left.  To Davie's point, their facilities (regardless of modernity of them), do represent 50% of the total capacity when looking at Seaspan, Irving and Davie.

Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2522 on: January 17, 2019, 10:03:38 »
So if Davie doesn't build the required new Coast Guard ships, since they average over 30yrs old, then who is going to build them?

This all comes down to capacity - and neither Seaspan nor Irving has any left.  To Davie's point, their facilities (regardless of modernity of them), do represent 50% of the total capacity when looking at Seaspan, Irving and Davie.

I never said they shouldn't get to build CG ships, its their incessant wining about it.  The government did get them to do a light conversion on those three ice breakers and they are getting some CPF maintenance in a few years so its not like they're getting nothing. As for who should build them, there's always the offshore option. Seems like Norway and Finland can do a good job so there are options. As for Irving's capacity, it appears that a major section of land directly across from the Halifax Dockyard that is currently DND property with lots of water frontage is coming on the market fairly soon. Word has Irving eying it to build maintenance facilities to increase their capacity.
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2524 on: January 17, 2019, 11:38:47 »
Interesting article.   https://www.cgai.ca/overcoming_boom_and_bust_analyzing_national_shipbuilding_plans_in_canada_and_australia

A very interesting an insightful piece!  CGAI never disappoints when it comes to cogent, neutral/unbiased analysis and writing.

Thanks for this.

Regards
G2G