Author Topic: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy  (Read 810559 times)

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Offline Colin P

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2675 on: May 24, 2019, 15:51:31 »
Currently Seaspan does not have a work gap, if they did i would be happy to point out that they should look closer to home for customers.

Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2676 on: May 25, 2019, 10:57:08 »
Oh the irony--Seaspan understands realities, buys vessels abroad for its ferry line while building them at Vancouver for stupid Canadian gov't:
Mark
Ottawa

The ferries are too large for them to build at the VSY location. They couldn't build them there if they wanted to (which they don't because the order books are full anyway).  Get this looks bad, but makes perfect sense if you understand the context.

Modern shipyards are set up like car plants, and specialized for specific types of cars. There is usually a hard size limit, but may vary between the size of the modules, size of the launch, weight limits etc.  Ferry modules are really big, have some tricky construction and can have some other oddities, so you need to have a shipyard built for it and it's a steep learning curve.  There are shipyards that specialize in that kind of thing, and just makes no sense to make the massive infrastructure investments required in upgrades to build a one off. Would take at least 4-6 to get over the learning curve, so just makes no sense.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2677 on: May 25, 2019, 12:09:19 »
Actually, Navy_Pete, I disagree with a good deal of your post.

First, the part I agree with: Seaspan's books are full.

That's it.

IMHO, the rest is wrong. Seaspan is building AOR's (or JSS, call it what you may) and an Arctic ice breaker which are both much larger and with larger size block that he contemplated ferries, so there is no size problem at the shipyard. And while some shipyard specialize for cost reasons, they do so simply because their books are sufficiently full to go that route. Otherwise, like most shipyards, they would take whatever comes their way.

There is one aspect overlooked here, however: The vessels are to be LNG-Battery hybrids. That is a very specialized and complex recent technology. And there is only one shipyard in Canada with experience with that technology - but Seaspan is not about to mandate its competitor Davie with building ships for it, isn't it?.

Even then, Davie has built one such ferry for the Government of Quebec, and is in the process of building a second one (mired in a court case), and has experienced all the teething problems associated with delivering such a new product. It does make Davie one of the few yards in North America with that technological knowledge and, if and when the court case is over and the early problems are resolved, it may well pay off and generate more local sales - especially as G.H.G emissions standards become tighter and tighter. Only the future will tell.

Offline Colin P

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2678 on: May 25, 2019, 13:06:47 »
Size is the not the issue, the Spirit Class were built out here by several shipyards doing different modules and then combining them. Part of the issue is that other yards can undercut Canadian labour cost.

Offline Uzlu

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2679 on: May 25, 2019, 15:41:07 »
Seaspan is building AOR's (or JSS, call it what you may) and an Arctic ice breaker
This says that the shipbuilder for the future CCGS John G. Diefenbaker is to be determined.  I think, therefore, it might be Davie.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2680 on: May 25, 2019, 16:34:42 »
Don't believe everything the Government puts out  ;).

Seriously, though, the Diefenbaker is on the actual list of vessels in the original group of vessels attributed to Seaspan under the NSS. It is possible that the government wishes to change this, but to do so, they would have to negotiate a withdrawal with Seaspan. I suspect that may be the intent of (1) changing status to non-determined, paired with (2) assigning Seaspan 16 more vessels right now. But Seaspan could insist on respect of the contract.

I note here that, the government web site you refer to also lists the Large Naval Tug project as TBD, yet it has been awarded weeks ago to Ocean Group of Isle-aux-Coudres:

https://www.groupocean.com/en/contrat-ocean-industries-naval_construction-national_defence-canada/

Offline Colin P

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2681 on: May 25, 2019, 16:47:32 »
Plus we may have new government by October.

Offline NavyShooter

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2682 on: May 25, 2019, 19:10:47 »
Plus we may have new government by October.



THERE...right there...THAT is the crux of the problem.


The whole thing is a political theatre...a sham of partisan politics. 


ERC said a while back that the NSPS is a jobs program where the ships are a somewhat useful byproduct. 

Looking at it from that perspective, you can understand the NSPS.


It's never been about the ships, or the capabilities.  Ever.


It's all been about which yard gets the porkbarrel, and which party gets the votes.

Insert disclaimer statement here....

:panzer:

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2683 on: May 25, 2019, 19:15:23 »
Matt Gurney on Justin Trudeau's super-cynical announcement of new vessels for CCG--other that the Irving A/OPS (not what CCG needs) which should arrive fairly soon, the 16 ones from Seaspan are in some 2030s never never land if the shipyard builds the two JSS and the polar icebreaker first:

Quote
The Navy's not our only fleet crippled by government incompetence
The Coast Guard is in equally bad shape, perhaps worse, and the plan to save it sounds all too familiar, in the most dispiriting way

It takes a particular kind of incompetence to let a fleet of ocean-going vessels rust out. Canada is remarkably close to doing so twice.

Long-time readers of mine will know that a topic I’ve returned to frequently, to absolutely no evident effect, is the chronic underfunding of the Canadian military. In recent years, the problem has become particularly acute for the Royal Canadian Navy. The fleet lost both its last destroyers and their unique capabilities, and its supply ships. The two kinds of ships, vastly different in their capabilities, both dated back to around 1970, and both simply had run out of useful life by the second decade of this century. The Navy’s dozen frigates are in good shape, having recently been modernized, and the four submarines have at long last come up to speed. The converted civilian ship Asterix is functioning as an interim supply vessel. But the loss of the destroyers and supply ships, retired without replacement due to incompetence and neglect by Liberals and Tories alike, undeniably badly hurt the Navy.

Hmm, what’s that you say? The Coast Guard is a disaster, too? Gee, how could that have happened?

Yes, sadly, it turns out that the Navy wasn’t the only fleet rusting out. The Coast Guard is in equally bad shape, perhaps worse — and it’s all been happening most out of sight and out of mind.

I don’t exclude myself from that
[emphasis added]. I don’t know the organization well, as it falls a bit outside my primary interests. The Coast Guard isn’t a military force in Canada. Its ships sail unarmed. The Coast Guard isn’t even a police force, per se. Law enforcement on Canadian seas is tasked to the RCMP, which may assign officers to Coast Guard vessels as needed. But the Coast Guard is a separate service, tasked with patrol but not enforcement, scientific research and search and rescue. In this sense, it’s actually fascinating — a special agency within the government providing services to many other departments and initiatives. But it’s a little off my radar, no pun intended, and I think that’s true for most Canadians [emphasis added, only so sadly true--and our media and politicians largely ignore it because it is not controversial like the CAF which might once in a while kill people].

But the one thing I did know about the Coast Guard is that its fleet is old. Very old. Its largest icebreaker was launched in 1966. It has two other heavy icebreakers, the younger of which was launched in April of 1983, just a few months after I was born. All told, the Coast Guard’s fleet is stretched beyond its effective limit: documents obtained by The Canadian Press last month showed that fully a third of the fleet’s large vessels were already past their expected service lives and unlikely to be replaced before rusting out.

It’s all very familiar, in the most dispiriting way. So is the government’s response.

Much like with the Navy, now that the fleet is literally about to fall apart, the government has shown up with a plan. Justin Trudeau announced in Vancouver on Wednesday that the Coast Guard would receive 18 new ships. Two would be of the same class of Arctic patrol ships that the Navy will soon take into service. Sixteen will be a mid-sized multi-purpose ship that only exists right now as a gleam in a procurement ministry bureaucrat’s eye. The budget is a shade under $16 billion, but considering that the vast majority of the ships haven’t even been designed yet, let alone constructed, that number is barely a placeholder.

There’s a column to be written about the decision to build two more Arctic patrol ships and give them to the Coast Guard. The patrol ships are military vessels — lightly armed, but warships nonetheless [not really, they're for "constabulary" duties]. They’ll have the advantage of youth, relative to the rest of the Coast Guard fleet, but that’s it — they’re not suited to its specific needs. The only reason they’re being given to the Coast Guard is to keep the shipyard that builds them humming during an election year. The last thing the Liberals need in the months before an election when they’re down in the polls is to have Irving laying off a bunch of workers in the Maritimes. This is no way to run a Coast Guard, yet here we are.

And the prime minister is barely pretending otherwise. When announcing the new ships, he couldn’t stop gushing about all the jobs it would create. So many new jobs, in fact, that Canada will need to bring a third shipyard into the national shipbuilding program — Quebec’s Davie shipyard, of Vice-Admiral Mark Norman trial fame, seems to be in line for some sizeable federal contracts. Preserving the Coast Guard’s operational capabilities is a bonus — a meaningful one, even, but no more than that. It’s really about the jobs.

It’s all very familiar, like I said: an asset vital to Canada being allowed to quite literally rust away without replacements because our government can’t get its act together. The solution is familiar, too: a jobs-creation program masquerading as a procurement effort. And there’s one more part of this that’s also familiar: the nagging sense that this will all get very badly screwed up somehow, and the Coast Guard will end up getting either much fewer ships than expected, or conceivably, none at all. It is, sadly, the Canadian way.
https://nationalpost.com/opinion/matt-gurney-the-navys-not-our-only-fleet-crippled-by-government-incompetence?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1558720599

Mark
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2684 on: May 25, 2019, 19:45:21 »
CCG currently has seven high endurance multi-tasked vessels and six offshore patrol vessels. These thirteen are surely the ones to be replaced by the "up to 16 Multi-Purpose Vessels" Trudeau announced on May 22. But why 16 rather than 13?

Also Trudeau announced "new Mid-Shore Multi-Mission Ship" (no numbers, clearly for Davie), which presumably would replace the current three medium endurance multi-tasked vessels.

Note that almost all the current multi-tasked vessels of both types were built in the 1980s:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equipment_of_the_Canadian_Coast_Guard
https://inter-j01.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fdat/vessels?status=1&search=close
https://pm.gc.ca/eng/news/2019/05/22/prime-minister-announces-renewal-canadian-coast-guard-fleet

But in 2013 (!!!) the Conservative gov't announced that Seaspan would build (after everything through the last ship planned, the polar icebreaker) up to five offshore patrol vessels and up to five medium endurance multi-tasked vessels:

Quote
Canadian Coast Guard Shocker – Ten (maybe) New Serious Vessels
https://mark3ds.wordpress.com/2013/10/07/mark-collins-canadian-coast-guard-shocker-ten-maybe-new-serious-vessels/

[2013 news release:
https://www.canada.ca/en/news/archive/2013/10/vancouver-shipyards-build-medium-endurance-multi-tasked-vessels-offshore-patrol-vessels-canadian-coast-guard.html]

Why in 2013 were the medium-endurance replacements considered a higher priority than the high-endurance ones the gov't now seems to be more definite about? Though if Davie gets the mediums they almost certainly will show up long before Seaspan's highs.

All most confusingly political, what? And the gov't and CCG give no time-frames in which those various types of vessels will be bought and no detailed rationale for what is being procured when and why.

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline Uzlu

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2685 on: May 25, 2019, 21:45:10 »
But why 16 rather than 13?
Sixteen sounds better than thirteen if you are going to lose the future CCGS John G. Diefenbaker to Davie.  Sixteen rather than thirteen, because the Liberals are trailing the Conservatives in the polls.

Online Retired AF Guy

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2686 on: May 26, 2019, 08:36:45 »
But why 16 rather than 13?

Thirteen is bad luck.
"Leave one wolf alive, and the sheep are never safe."

Arya Stark

Offline Colin P

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2687 on: May 26, 2019, 23:15:35 »
Frankly I don't trust to much of the advice given by senior CCG management, they have lied to governments at least twice that I know of and the examples I have seen out here were not stellar. We have many fine ship Captains, but that's where it seems to end. 

Offline Uzlu

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2688 on: May 29, 2019, 07:55:16 »
Quote
Coast guard fleet renewal plan unlikely to yield promised deals before the election

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has pledged billions of dollars for a renewal of the Canadian Coast Guard fleet, but while work to hammer out new shipbuilding deals will start shortly, it’s unlikely any new contracts or agreements will be signed before the fall election.

Global News has learned federal officials do not expect to award contracts for any of the promised 18 new coast guard vessels or sign a deal to bring a third shipyard into the National Shipbuilding Strategy before Canadians head to the polls in October.

But the work to begin those processes will get underway in the coming weeks and months amid political uncertainty around Liberal fortunes in Quebec.

According to one official, the government aims to get to an umbrella agreement with that third shipyard similar to what it has with Irving and Seaspan, the other two shipyards currently involved in the National Shipbuilding Strategy.

Those umbrella agreements lay out the rules and terms of negotiation over work bid on by the shipyard under the National Shipbuilding Strategy.

However, the umbrella agreements are not contracts for work, and in the case of the National Shipbuilding Strategy, a copy of one of the original agreements obtained by Global News makes it clear that a shipyard under an umbrella agreement is not guaranteed any of the contracts that may result under the strategy.

The agreement also states the government is free to add or remove non-contracted work from the plates of individual shipyards as it sees fit.

Those terms could be significant if a third shipyard comes into play under the National Shipbuilding Strategy.

Sources both within and outside the government say there is no other viable candidate that could qualify to be that third shipyard other than Chantier Davie.

Based in Levis, Que., the shipyard is just across the river from Quebec City and is part of a region where the Liberals hold two of roughly 10 available seats and will need to either hold or gain across the province to maintain their majority government.

Liberal MP Joel Lightbound represents the Quebec City riding of Louis-Hébert while Minister of Families, Children and Social Development Jean-Yves Duclos holds the nearby riding of Quebec.

Duclos won his riding by just two percentage points ahead of the NDP candidate while Lightbound won by roughly seven per cent ahead of the Conservative.

The nearby riding of Charlesbourg-Haute-Saint-Charles elected Conservative Pierre Paul-Hus by roughly 20 per cent in 2015, and apart from briefly flipping to the NDP during the Orange Wave, the riding has been held by either the Conservatives or the Bloc Quebecois for decades.

Louis-Saint-Laurent, the riding held by Conservative Gerard Deltell, elected him by more than 50 per cent of the vote after narrowly electing an NDP candidate in 2011 following years of sending Conservatives to Parliament Hill. Conservative Jacques Gourd also won Lévis—Lotbinière by more than 50 per cent in 2015.

The actual riding where the Davie shipyard is located, Bellechasse-Les Etchemins-Lévis, has elected Conservative Steven Blaney with between 44 and 51 per cent of the vote since 2006.

People’s Party of Canada Leader Maxime Bernier, formerly a Conservative, has won his nearby riding of Beauce with more than 50 per cent of the vote since 2006, which was when the Liberals lost control of it after holding it since 1997.

But several of the Conservatives in the area also won their ridings by much smaller margins, raising questions about whether their seats could swing given the right circumstances.

Conservative Alupa Clarke won Beauport-Limoilou with 30 per cent of the vote compared to the Liberal candidate and the NDP candidate, who separately garnered 25 per cent each, while Conservative Sylvie Boucher won Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix by roughly seven per cent.

Boucher’s closest competitor was a Liberal.

Apart from 2011, when Clarke’s riding of Beauport-Limoilou went to the NDP, it has jumped back and forth by single-digit margins between the Conservatives and the Bloc Quebecois with the Liberals trailing in third place.

While the Liberals had roughly 38 per cent of the support in Quebec during an Ipsos poll for Global News in March, both the Conservatives and Bloc Quebecois were polling at 25 and 23 per cent, respectively, with the latter poised to potentially capitalize on collapsing NDP support in the province.

Those shifting dynamics up the pressure on the government to shore up support in the region and across the province, with one shipbuilding source suggesting the government would be wise to head into the election with a deal under their belts that can garner some goodwill in the region.

While a federal source acknowledged the goal is to work quickly, they were skeptical that the work needed to award those deals could be processed in time.

Chantier Davie estimates that allowing it into the National Shipbuilding Strategy would create about 2,000 new jobs in the region.
https://globalnews.ca/news/5308231/national-shipbuilding-strategy-coast-guard-renewal/

Offline Colin P

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2689 on: May 29, 2019, 09:44:07 »
My guess is that the CPC will allude or commit to a similar promise and can point to the Astreix as being a CPC started project. In fact I suspect that the Libs in the area will be reluctant to talk in detail about ships, a it will lead to the Norman affair. 

Offline Uzlu

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2690 on: May 30, 2019, 07:22:44 »
Quote
New momentum on the west coast [CS19D2]

Seaspan's three-ship Offshore Fisheries and Science Vessel construction programme is also proceeding apace. The first two ships are slated to be delivered later this year and the third is under construction. Company officials say Seaspan continues to build efficiencies as the initiative progresses. These include a 27 per cent productivity increase on the second ship and a further 30 per cent on the third.

This provides great news both on the jobs and regional benefits fronts. Seaspan officials claim to have awarded more than C$870 million in contracts to 540 Canadian suppliers across the country, to have trained more than 200 apprentices and coached 75 intern engineers, architects, programme managers, finance analysts and estimators, and ships' planners during the past year.

Yet Seaspan officials are far from satisfied. The company continues to invest in its Vancouver shipyard to build capacity for current and anticipated future work.

Seaspan officials also worry about the potential effects of Trudeau's announcement that the government is introducing a third shipyard - presumably Davie Shipbuilding of Levis, Quebec - into its national strategy.

Canada's joint support ship programme remains Seaspan's biggest hope. Company officials said it has begun work on 18 blocks on the programme and is planning to start work on a further 27.

However the real action will only begin once a formal contract is signed, which Seaspan officials hope will take place in the spring of 2020.
https://www.janes.com/article/88929/new-momentum-on-the-west-coast-cs19d2

Offline Spencer100

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2691 on: May 30, 2019, 12:34:16 »
Potatoes for Ships? or something like that.  Cavendish Farms for IRB's

So much here....The press is starting to smell blood.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-government-alerted-irving-family-about-globe-story/?fbclid=IwAR3tTRkMSXywcGIdXrQxct4kH1PhYavPvLuhxtNEwyyy-4pp1bKALg_1v2Y

Plus National Post reporter in the news.  (I'm assuming this is OK as he is the news in the competitive paper) 

Offline Spencer100

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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2693 on: May 30, 2019, 15:29:14 »
Now this from shipping interests in both Canada and US (only Davie could build in reasonable future):

Quote
Great Lakes-St. Lawrence Shipping: We need Icebreakers

The Great Lakes-St. Lawrence shipping industry is calling for at least five new icebreakers to be part of the federal government’s recent announcement of $15.7 billion for Canadian Coast Guard fleet renewal.

Chamber of Marine Commerce President Bruce Burrows will be in attendance as the Coast Guard dedicates the Captain Molly Kool into service at its home port of St. John’s, Newfoundland and Labrador. The Captain Molly Kool was recently retrofitted to provide services along the East Coast. 

However, this asset along with two other acquired icebreakers currently being retrofitted will not be adding any extra capacity but take the place of other vessels that will be out of service for major repairs.

Canadian and U.S. Coast Guard crews worked tirelessly during the Great Lakes spring break-out, but were hampered by the age and condition of the fleets at their disposal. Two U.S. Coast Guard icebreakers were out of service in March and a Canadian icebreaker assigned to Lake Superior was only able to operate at 60 per cent of capability and was idled in April due to mechanical issues.

Ice build-ups in the St. Lawrence River during January also led to eight container ships being stuck at the Port of Montreal and 10 others at other Quebec ports.

In the Great Lakes-St. Lawrence region, the cost to the Canadian economy of a Canadian vessel being delayed impacting cargo delivery is estimated at over $500,000/day.

Overall, ships transport more than 230 million metric tons of goods worth over $100 billion on the Great Lakes-St. Lawrence River waterway, generating more than $60 billion in economic activity and supporting 329,000 jobs in Canada and the U.S.

That economic contribution is only set to increase as ports and their customers invest in increasing the capacity of the waterway as well as looking at options like lengthening the navigation season of the St. Lawrence Seaway.
https://www.marinelink.com/news/great-lakesst-lawrence-shipping-need-466714

More from Chamber of Marine Commerce:
https://www.marinedelivers.com/media_release/great-lakes-st-lawrence-shipping-industry-calls-for-new-icebreaking-assets-as-part-of-canadian-coast-guard-ship-building-program/

Mark
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Offline Uzlu

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2694 on: May 30, 2019, 16:10:47 »
only Davie could build in reasonable future
Which designs are ready?  The only one that I am aware of is for the future CCGS John G. Diefenbaker.  Five Diefenbakers to be operational no later than about 2030?  I do not think Canada has enough competent politicians for that to happen.

Offline Colin P

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2695 on: May 30, 2019, 17:23:14 »
Nor a competent pay system to pay those sailors.

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2696 on: May 30, 2019, 19:11:52 »
Uzlu: The Chamber of Marine Commerce shippers are not concerned about the Arctic and polar-class icebreakers. They want ships to keep Great Lakes/St. Lawrence as clear as possible which recently CCG has been unable to do--hence acquisition of Molly Kool and two more (hardly new) conversions from Davie.

If Davie can't build something new in good order than reasonable and cheap thing to do is buy abroad--shouldn't be hard to find a suitable design in production. But no Canadian gov't will have the guts to do the right thing--compare with Aussies having Damen of Netherlands build them a 25,500 tonnes serious Antarctic icebreaker in Romania, in fairly short order:

Quote
Australia's new Antarctic icebreaker - RSV Nuyina[/color
http://www.antarctica.gov.au/
...
About the ship
http://www.antarctica.gov.au/icebreaker/about-the-ship
...
Construction updates:
http://www.antarctica.gov.au/icebreaker/updates


Mark
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Offline Uzlu

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2697 on: May 30, 2019, 20:45:30 »
The Chamber of Marine Commerce shippers are not concerned about the Arctic and polar-class icebreakers.
This is my point.  I do not think there are any designs for smaller icebreakers that are ready to be built in a Canadian yard.  Does anyone here know of a design for a Polar Class 3 or Polar Class 4 icebreaker that is ready to be built by a Canadian yard?  The National Shipbuilding Strategy was started in 2010.  Nine years later, the design for the Offshore Oceanographic Science Vessel is still not ready. 

I do not think Canada can afford to wait ten or more years until the Canadian Coast Guard decides on designs for Polar Class 3 and Polar Class 4 icebreakers.  Maybe the solution is to ask the Canadian Coast Guard what it is that they want and then have Davie and the naval architects decide on the designs.  But the problem with this is that it might take some time before the designs are ready.
Quote
"We have every intention of submitting a world-class proposal together with global leaders in icebreaker design."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/davie-coast-guard-icebreakers-canada-vicefield-byers-gagnon-1.4730332

Offline Colin P

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2698 on: May 30, 2019, 21:20:02 »
Quite a few designs out there already, picking a design is not hard, jumping through our procurement system is very hard.

Offline YZT580

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2699 on: May 30, 2019, 21:30:13 »
Quite a few designs out there already, picking a design is not hard, jumping through our procurement system is very hard.
\Isn't Irving mass producing them now?  The AORs are class 4.  Buy another 2 or 3 or perhaps repaint the current ones in white and red.  Problem solved